Really? If you have the gear you say you do and are as great as you are implying you are, then you should be able to do these HM FP without a healer. I have done 5 hm fp with 4 dps and no tank or healer when one guild member wanted his speeder achievement for a alt.

 

My main is one of these crappy *** healers, I have healed HM TfB and into NiM EC with no problems, but if the tank and dps don't know how to use defensive cooldown, get out of AOEs, interupt or dps knowing kill order or aggro dumps, then let them die. I have healed many HM FP with 13K HP tanks and I would rather do that with someone that is willing to listen and learn than a overgeared tank or dps that really has no clue how to play in groups. I would rather have a 800 dps, than a 2000 dps that has no clue of how to use cooldowns or any game awareness.

If you can heal so well; I'm obliviously not talking about you am I? No matter your gear/skill level you need heals. I can't heal on my Mara and he can't heal on his Jugg. All you need is a companion to heal through every flashpoint (with the exception of LI) and as long as you can out HPS a companion, you'll do fine. So please, lets work a bit reading comprehension before you start replying.

As for your 4 dps through a flashpoint; I said the exact same thing: 4 dps through LI. What's your point?

As for your 4 dps through a flashpoint; I said the exact same thing: 4 dps through LI. What's your point?

If you have a great tank and a great dps, then the healer should only have to heal the tank. Which any fresh 50 should be able to do, provided they are not getting tore up by the mobs (should dps be killing in the wrong order).

Just noticed we are on the same server...You must really have some bad luck, because I have been very lucky to get some very good healers there. Of course, I mainly just do fp on the republic side. On the imp I have another healer, but she just does guild runs.

On the same server as Opfotm and I completely agree. Our server, and I'm sure I'm generalizing here, has an incredible amount of amazingly awful healers. To elaborate: My brother and I are both raiders in our top raid group ( I'm a dps and he's a tank). Both of us are optimized 63 geared. I'm missing the Hazmat earpiece and he's missing the belt and bracers. Yet on multiple occasions, we've run with healers who can't seem to keep him alive, complain that he's too squishy to tank, and then quit on us when we just call them ****** at their job. Now, granted we might be very spoiled with the guildies we usually run with when it's 4 dps clearing LI HM (sorc off heals FTW), but we make sure to slow down some for pugs. There is no reason that a tank with 28k health should die on Malgus or Revan...or god forbid the trash at the start of boarding party. Last night he got accused of taking all the damage during some pull on Kaon and the healer was mad because he was used to " The damage being spread around more".

 

Since I can solo dps every single FP boss in this game; we don't have to worry about dps ruining runs for us. Far and away the most common thing we run into is crappy *** healers who have zero clue what to do.

 

As for the people complaining about dps pulling before your tank: all I have to say is that you have a crappy tank. Now, before you respond by trashing me; listen to my reasoning. I will be the first to admit that I pull quickly. I don't wait for the tank. If the tank has to keep up with me; I vote to kick him. The tank should be jumping to a group, agroing, and moving on. It's not your job to stay and try to kill the adds. That's why you have 2 dps...they kill stuff you don't. By the time you get to the second group of adds, your dps should be done and ready to come kill your group. They get to your group, you move on. Only time I will wait is when the healer is low on energy and force or high on heat. But again, If trash is causing your healer to go low on reasources, I'd probably vote to kick him as well. Flashpoints are meant to be fast. If you're in a flashpoint for the story; stop wasting the other 3 people's time and go solo it in SM.

 

EDIT: Also, just for full disclosure I am Mara. Rage spec for Flashpoints and Carnage for Ops. I can kill almost every single trash pull with one smash. Yet, I do the exact same thing one my Sorc, Powertech, Sniper, and Merc. My job is to kill stuff. I love dps and use flashpoints to refine gear and simple rotations. If tanks can't keep up; their fault not mine. Every single one of my toons has at minimum 61 BiS and I can kill most pulls with an AoE. Tanks literally have nothing to do except keep up

A tank is crappy because he doesn't stack up packs upon packs of enemies on top of his group with no hope for healer or dps to wait a sec and regen? you have too high expectations from a pug group. As a tank if I see a guy going ahead and attacking a mob I consider that they are aware of the risks of doing that act and proceed to killing the other mobs. With full 63 you can tank gold mobs anyway.

Yes, people exaggerate here big time. It's human nature to remember the negative exception more vividly than the positive norm. It IS true, however, that when a pug is bad it's really bad. You can usually muddle through one weak link, but when there's 2 or more and/or they're fighting amongst themselves. (I've seen a healer or tank start fighting with one of the other members more than a few times and it all goes downhill from there). Still, I can probably count the number of times since GF launch that I've had a PUG fall apart and fail to finish the FP without taking my shoes off.

Instead by a HUGE margin I've found the group finder & daily PUGs to be almost comically effective in crushing this "hard mode" content. Most of the time on my healer I'm not even throwing out my big heals - just AoE and HOTs while adding my own piddly little DPS to the mix because the tank & DPS just aren't taking damage before stuff gets burned down.

All bets are off at low levels, though. You never know how new your groupmates are to the game and/or their class/role then. But I don't group much while leveling anyway.

Maybe 1 in 20 PUGs will I come across someone I don't want to group with again, and it's always because they had an attitude problem or did something like queue up as tank when they are DPS spec/geared. Most runs are smooth, and disbanding because we can't beat a boss is exceptionally rare.

 

Yet I frequently hear people say they've sworn off PUGs or they hate them or whatever.

 

I see a number of possible explanations:

 

People like to complain/act superior

Bad players who do not know they are bad complain that groups are bad (unlikely that this is a main factor, I think)

People get upset really easily/I'm really easygoing

 

Or it could be that I'm an awesome healer who makes up for bads. Of course this is my favorite theory, but I am biased, so I want to find out what other people have experienced and think.

some of the major problems are a few peoples' expectations are too high for players new to mmos, have little patience with them and are not capable of teaching them. they expect everyone to know how to play rather than try to teach them. most even lack the tact in dealing with such players and instead just leave the group or rant on and on. most new players want to learn and are willing to listen. these are not the problem players i have run into though.

yes i have run into some poor players in pugs in here but have done so across every mmo i have played. most of these players are well geared and are guilded. this is the problem. they think they are better than what they are because they came from a different mmo trying to use the same tactics when this games mechanics are different. you cant tell them anything. they are the problem and not the newbs nor f2p players.

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There is a degree of bullying that happens in groups with 3 guildies plus one PUG member. I often find that it brings out the worst in people. I'm always cautious about a PUG with that group make-up. Sometimes it goes really well and we clear it really fast, but other times you had better watch out because you will become the scapegoat if something goes wrong regardless of whose fault it is.

I often pug HM FPs with 2 other guildies and pick up a 4th and I'm always extra nice to the pug in those situations. We also try to be very fair to pug members filling out slots in operations too; we'll use Master Looter but give them the exact same chance to win as guildies and often we've almost completely equipped a pug member of our group by the end!

If you care about your guild, you care about your guild's reputation. It matters to me that The Orbital Guard and The Onyx Guard play fair and don't screw people over!

My experience with PuGing has been... ok so far. Most of my runs have been pretty smooth, but there has been a few instances of incompetent tanks, dps queued as tank, healers who don't heal, dps attacking everything first, players continously needing on things they clearly don't need, etc, etc.

But all of this can be fixed with a simple /votekick.

I actually look at pugs as a way of appreciating my guild.

Other then that they can be fun in their own way because you don't know the skill level of the players or sometimes you are suprised that there ARE good players out there. For example, I did a group finder EV on my fresh lv50 maurader last night. Everyone knew the fights accept for the tanks. With a little explanation we were able to get though most of the fights without too much trouble.

-Droid - 2 wipes, tanks not understanding mechanics

-Gharj - 2 wipes, one from a DC'd tank and another due to someone pulling too early

-One shotted puzzle boss (I know, right?)

-One shotted council (still amazed on that one)

-2 wipes on SOA, this due to the fact that people didn't understand the platform mechanic and tanks didn't understand the pilliars in phase 3. Once we explained everything clearly we got to phase 3 with no deaths and subsequently killed SOA.

So take PUGS for what they are and try to have fun with it.

I think the issue is that when PuGs are bad that a so bad you have to post about them. Over all I dont have issues with puging. I have seen that alot of people go into pugs expecting things to happen but make no effort to assure they do happen.

IE Tank wants to skip tons of mobs doesnt say jack just takes off leaving the rest fo the group to fend for themselves then cries when the other members get killed or wipe.

The Queueing as rolls you cant not fill is my hands down biggest rager. I am a SI healer I have 20k HP if your a tank with less and in dps spec you shouldnt be queueing to tank. Nothing I enjoyed more then the 13k Juggy tank with no shield in Heroic Kaon yea that was fun.

I usually don't have issues with PUGs, although me being the tank helps to make sure things get done right.

I will say this, nothing annoys me more than DPS initiating pulls over and over again. I'm a pretty quick tank, which means the DPS has to basically be running ahead of me as much as possible to pull before me. If this happens a few times in a row, first I'll let that DPS tank and hope the healer gets the idea to let him die. Then he can ask me what happened, I'll explain that I thought he wanted to tank, and he'll hopefully get the message. If the healer keeps him up though, I'll just exit and add said DPS to my ignore list.

Just a tip if you're a DPS, as long as the tank isn't stopping for coffee between every pull, don't initiate pulls without him. I don't care if its the Black Talon and you way overgear the content, that tank is the one that made your queue pop, don't make his job any more difficult than it has to be.

If the healer keeps him up though, I'll just exit and add said DPS to my ignore list.

Unless someone says something, I am sorry, but I am going to heal. As a healer keeping everyone on their feet is my job, so unless the tank tells me otherwise that is what I am going to do. However, if the tank whispers me, then I may not heal the dps, if I agree with the tank and I have been on plenty of HMFP where dps pulled everything. I usually whisper the tank and ask if they are ok with that. I am geared well enough I can take 2 dps and a dps companion through many HMFP so I can deal with dps pulling, but they really need to learn the proper what to play. Instead when they get a fresh 50 healer that is most likely better than me, just not geared to keep up, they kick the healer saying they are bad.

The Queueing as rolls you cant not fill is my hands down biggest rager. I am a SI healer I have 20k HP if your a tank with less and in dps spec you shouldnt be queueing to tank. Nothing I enjoyed more then the 13k Juggy tank with no shield in Heroic Kaon yea that was fun.

And what equipment does your inquisitor have? If my dps smuggler with Columi and 17k-something HP is any indication, you probably have Black Hole gear or so. I wonder if a fresh level 50 tank in Tionese gear has that much?

The example you gave clearly has no business queuing as a tank, but HM FPs are designed for Tionese gear, so if a tank in (sensible) Tionese gear shows up and knows how to play his role, you should have no complaints.

I ignore most endgame stuff, so I run into newbs a lot on leveling heroics.

I'd say 30% of the time you might group with total incompetents, sometimes compounded by a bad group makeup (like no tank or no healer.) Sorcerors who don't know they have a CC, healers who don't heal, people totally unaware of the concept of focus firing, people breaking CC...

The only thing sad about this is like a three minute video could totally explain group combat dynamics, they're so simple. Even if the person was playing an RTS from overhead, they would comprehend "everybody shoot at one guy so he dies fast = good."

But to me a bad group can be its own adventure, when you overcome the incompetence. It's definitely easier to weather an incompetent group if you're a healer, though.