+5 & couldn't agree more. In fact, I think I will adopt that into my sig. People with any semblance of a brain don't support a game by repeatedly kicking it in the privates; spewing all day every day that it, its community and/or its developer are failures ... regardless of how the delivery is camouflaged. They are imho either compensating for something that has nothing to do with anything past their keyboard, or are intentionally trying to chase business away. People who truly support something don't gang bang it - they, well ... they support it.

 

That's merely my opinion based on over 30 years of experience watching faceless forums give abusive cowards a place to thrive. I don't need, nor would it be even possible, to produce any facts to back up that opinion. That's how opinion tends to work.

Well saying something like "everybody hates this and nobody is playing it" is not an opinion, it is a statement of fact.

Are you really responding to people labeling you a conspiracy theorist by... asking if people are conspiring against you???

 

Sorry mate, but when you put out there statements like "This is exactly what they want everyone to believe," and say that the hard numbers put out by a EA/BW and a third party data company were "made up by someone" or are "laughably implausible marketing propaganda"... chances are multiple people are going to disagree with you all on their own, and some of them may even think those statements make you sound like a member of the tinfoil-hat brigade.

 

For my part, like I said before, I can respect taking a critical eye to statistics and numbers being circulated, but I also can't really blame people for reaching the conclusion that you might not want to believe those numbers simply because they're not saying what you want them to say.

Yeah, pretty much this.

Well since you put it that way, I guess I owe you a touché.

 

As to your first point, I see the irony.

 

As to the second, I don't mean to imply any nefarious scheming from Bioware, just that anything a corporation says is advertising, and should be taken with a giant grain of salt.

I get your standpoint, but you are drawing it to ridiculous lengths.

1: the 139 million dollars profit from microtransactions was from an independent datagathering group. There is no reason to believe that bioware has somehow bought themselves a position on that list.

2: they are not allowed to lie about their numbers in the shareholders quarterly under penalty of stiff jailtime. For a company to lie on their quarterly is excedingly rare and usually only done if a company is about to fold and the management is basically ready to flee the country with whatever money is left.

The fact that you are not just skeptical to these numbers, but outright dismiss them as "false advertising" makes me think that you are indeed a conspiracy nut.

There is nothing wrong with critical thinking.

But saying that you refuse to believe in numbers given at a quarterly shareholders meeting where it is illegal to lie about the numbers goes way beyond critical thinking and into conspiracy theory land.

It all depends on what you call "decent content".

 

PvP players want more warzones and (some) arenas.

Hard-core Raiders want more NiM content and new Ops.

 

The problem is that those two groups (and I can't really think of any others*) are niche groups with a 'relatively' small portion of the games subscriber base.

Having both groups leave completely would make a difference.

But making content exclusively for those groups at a pace that they would like is also not feasible sinche they are niche groups.

The rate of content that these two groups want is at a level of being main content.

And that just won't happen.

 

So if one belongs to either of those groups one needs to decide to do one of two things. Either leave in protest and find another game that is centered around the preferred playstyle or be content with the rate of content added and maby partake in the rest of the content offered in the game.

 

*there are also roleplayers, but those guys are basically screwed from the start and the ones that are still playing have long since reconciled with the fact that they will get no content whatsoever geared towards them exclusively.

I think that even the "not so much hardcore" raiders from guilds that are raiding on regular basis (and which have cleared HM Oricon and have it on farm status probably) will agree that a year between new operations is a really long time (which is what it looks like, unless they announce new Ops for 2.8).

Sure, I get that they want NiMs to be perfect, but NiM is not really new raiding content, but a rehash of existing stuff, just more difficult, and not everybody wants to see that again...

I think that even the "not so much hardcore" raiders from guilds that are raiding on regular basis (and which have cleared HM Oricon and have it on farm status probably) will agree that a year between new operations is a really long time (which is what it looks like, unless they announce new Ops for 2.8).

Sure, I get that they want NiMs to be perfect, but NiM is not really new raiding content, but a rehash of existing stuff, just more difficult, and not everybody wants to see that again...

You know, it's kinda funny because the post you replied to was actually a reply to someone asking for more NiM ops...

And don't take the roadmap as an be-all-end-all of what will come this year. I'm betting there will be at least one Op involved in the end of the new storyline and that will come to a conclusion at the end of the year, so there will be at least one more new op there.

And since patch 2.8 is supposedly the "biggest one yet", chances are that there will be an Op there too.

I get your standpoint, but you are drawing it to ridiculous lengths.

1: the 139 million dollars profit from microtransactions was from an independent datagathering group. There is no reason to believe that bioware has somehow bought themselves a position on that list.

2: they are not allowed to lie about their numbers in the shareholders quarterly under penalty of stiff jailtime. For a company to lie on their quarterly is excedingly rare and usually only done if a company is about to fold and the management is basically ready to flee the country with whatever money is left.

 

The fact that you are not just skeptical to these numbers, but outright dismiss them as "false advertising" makes me think that you are indeed a conspiracy nut.

 

There is nothing wrong with critical thinking.

But saying that you refuse to believe in numbers given at a quarterly shareholders meeting where it is illegal to lie about the numbers goes way beyond critical thinking and into conspiracy theory land.

When I see statements that don't match the reality I see in game, I get cynical.

Like when, prior to F2P, it was clear the game was bleeding subs, I said so. A whole bunch of people claimed I was wrong, that the sub drop wasn't nearly as bad as people were claiming, that it was normal for an MMO to bleed subs that fast, and even that it was good for some bizarre reason that I can't recall. They believed the misinformation they were fed.

Now a year after F2P, those same people who refused to acknowledge any problems even existed, now say the game would be dead without the Cash Shop.

At least I'm consistent.

When I see statements that don't match the reality I see in game, I get cynical.

 

Like when, prior to F2P, it was clear the game was bleeding subs, I said so. A whole bunch of people claimed I was wrong, that the sub drop wasn't nearly as bad as people were claiming, that it was normal for an MMO to bleed subs that fast, and even that it was good for some bizarre reason that I can't recall. They believed the misinformation they were fed.

 

Now a year after F2P, those same people who refused to acknowledge any problems even existed, now say the game would be dead without the Cash Shop.

 

At least I'm consistent.

Quoted for truth

You know, it's kinda funny because the post you replied to was actually a reply to someone asking for more NiM ops...

 

And don't take the roadmap as an be-all-end-all of what will come this year. I'm betting there will be at least one Op involved in the end of the new storyline and that will come to a conclusion at the end of the year, so there will be at least one more new op there.

And since patch 2.8 is supposedly the "biggest one yet", chances are that there will be an Op there too.

I am not taking roadmap as final, I was one of the people who thought it is a terrible idea, as I knew this is what is going to happen.

1. People whine that BW does not give the roadmap.
   
2. BW gives them roadmap
   
3. People whine that they do not like the roadmap
   

Just saying that announcing new Ops should come sooner rather than later (just say "New Ops coming in July, or something like that" no need to be specific about it). The end of the year is simply too late (over a year without new endgame PvE group content is pretty bad, no matter where you look at it from)

1. People whine that BW does not give the roadmap.
   
2. BW gives them roadmap
   
3. People whine that they do not like the roadmap
   

Quoted for truth.

"Quoth", said the Raven, "I'm nevermore !"

I am not taking roadmap as final, I was one of the people who thought it is a terrible idea, as I knew this is what is going to happen.

1. People whine that BW does not give the roadmap.
   
2. BW gives them roadmap
   
3. People whine that they do not like the roadmap
   

Just saying that announcing new Ops should come sooner rather than later (just say "New Ops coming in July, or something like that" no need to be specific about it). The end of the year is simply too late (over a year without new endgame PvE group content is pretty bad, no matter where you look at it from)

Yes, but it seems alot of people only go through the bulletpoints and don't read the entire thing.

For example, this is posted in it:

"As I write this we are actively developing all of the above as well as PvP Seasons, new Flashpoints, new Operations, new gear, performance improvements, and changes coming to Classes."

So, new operations coming then...

When I see statements that don't match the reality I see in game, I get cynical.

 

Like when, prior to F2P, it was clear the game was bleeding subs, I said so. A whole bunch of people claimed I was wrong, that the sub drop wasn't nearly as bad as people were claiming, that it was normal for an MMO to bleed subs that fast, and even that it was good for some bizarre reason that I can't recall. They believed the misinformation they were fed.

 

Now a year after F2P, those same people who refused to acknowledge any problems even existed, now say the game would be dead without the Cash Shop.

 

At least I'm consistent.

Umm yeah, well I see no proof that this game is dying. Servers are on heavy (well, except the PvP servers) whenever I go online during prime time, and even when I play early mornings there are always plenty of people playing.

So tell me how this game is dying then?

I also see tons of outfits from the cartel packs for sale whenever there is a new pack released. Those outfits must have been bought with cartel coins from the start so someone must have spent a ton of money to get those.

139 million dollars in a year doesn't seem that far fetched for me.

When I see statements that don't match the reality I see in game, I get cynical.

 

Like when, prior to F2P, it was clear the game was bleeding subs, I said so. A whole bunch of people claimed I was wrong, that the sub drop wasn't nearly as bad as people were claiming, that it was normal for an MMO to bleed subs that fast, and even that it was good for some bizarre reason that I can't recall. They believed the misinformation they were fed.

 

Now a year after F2P, those same people who refused to acknowledge any problems even existed, now say the game would be dead without the Cash Shop.

 

At least I'm consistent.

Sooooo freaking true! Your best point ever CK!

When I see statements that don't match the reality I see in game, I get cynical.

 

Like when, prior to F2P, it was clear the game was bleeding subs, I said so. A whole bunch of people claimed I was wrong, that the sub drop wasn't nearly as bad as people were claiming, that it was normal for an MMO to bleed subs that fast, and even that it was good for some bizarre reason that I can't recall. They believed the misinformation they were fed.

 

Now a year after F2P, those same people who refused to acknowledge any problems even existed, now say the game would be dead without the Cash Shop.

 

At least I'm consistent.

You can be cynical all you want. It doesn't change the fact that financial statements are heavily regulated by the industry and lying about it (or an independent firm lying about it) is strictly illegal.

It happens but unless EA is involved is some gigantic coverup (and they aren't) you don't really have anything to stand on.

The fact is this, the F2P shop (CM shop, whatever) gave this game a MAJOR financial boost and allowed hte developers to re-hire and drive the game in a new direction. The sub bleed out would not have stopped. Unless you are grossly ignorant, the "hardcore, sub only MMO crowd" is a dying breed.

Its dead. Get over it. Market forces in play basically dictate that if you want a mass market game, you simply cannot rely on a sub fee to get it done. The mass market does not commit to games like a niche audience does. You have to have a more accessible model to play.

I think its also rather funny that you spend all this time being cynical and downright negative about all the good news even though YOU came back after quitting. I have to admit that made me chuckle.

I guess you can be cynical and still play. Its fine! If that floats your boat, then by all means, be cynical. I think your mostly upset because you wanted a niche, sub only game without a cash shop and that isn't what you got. Well...too bad. Welcome to real life.

Yes, but it seems alot of people only go through the bulletpoints and don't read the entire thing.

For example, this is posted in it:

"As I write this we are actively developing all of the above as well as PvP Seasons, new Flashpoints, new Operations, new gear, performance improvements, and changes coming to Classes."

 

So, new operations coming then...

Some people only see what they want to see. They have created their own reality in their minds and anything that runs counter to their "truth" is conveniently overlooked or misinterpreted.

And since patch 2.8 is supposedly the "biggest one yet", chances are that there will be an Op there too.

No, there is pretty much zero chance 2.8 will contain a brand new operation, because 2.8 is going to have NiM DP and completion of the tier gear from 2.7 and NiM DF. Any new operation, by definition, will need to drop gear. What gear are they going to put in there?

- It could be the same DF gear as DF/DP HM, so that NiM DF/DP retain their status as dropping the best raid gear available. But then it would have to be tuned for 72 gear, which would make it both too easy to too unrewarding for those that already have full DF gear, and really trivial for those that acquire the NiM gear from DF/DP.

- It could be the same gear as NiM DF/DP drop, but that obviously undermines the reward for guilds to do NiM.

- It could drop the next tier of HM gear, superior to DF/DP NiM. This is an even worse version of the above.

And don't forget there is the Makeb-level expansion coming this year, presumably with another bump in the level cap. So that will not be 2.8 either, because again it would conflict badly with NiM DP. That leaves us with an August, October, or December release, and it will need to contain at least 1 if not 2 new operations along with new gear. Do you really expect Bioware is going to release a new operation, and then make it obsolete a couple months later? I don't.

So there is good reason to believe that we will not see any new operations before the major expansion. Probably the best we can hope for is that happens no later than October, which would be one year after DF/DP were released.

Servers are on heavy (well, except the PvP servers) whenever I go online during prime time, and even when I play early mornings there are always plenty of people playing.

How may players are "heavy", though? Does anyone know except BW? It surely means something different than before server merges. And who can tell whether that definition isn't changing every two weeks?

Note that I don't say that it couldn't mean you'd need more players now that a month ago to get to "heavy".

You can be cynical all you want. It doesn't change the fact that financial statements are heavily regulated by the industry and lying about it (or an independent firm lying about it) is strictly illegal.

 

It happens but unless EA is involved is some gigantic coverup (and they aren't) you don't really have anything to stand on.

....

 

Are people really this naïve about corporations?

There are countless legal ways for a corporation to shuffle numbers around to make any unit within that corporation look more or less profitable than it really is. This happens all the time. It's not illegal in any way.

Are people really this naïve about corporations?

 

There are countless legal ways for a corporation to shuffle numbers around to make any unit within that corporation look more or less profitable than it really is. This happens all the time. It's not illegal in any way.

They can be ambiguous by reporting numbers for the company as a whole. When they break it down by unit, though, if they are publicly traded, you bet they have to be honest. Misleading shareholders in hopes of manipulating stock price is a fairly big no-no, you know.

They can be ambiguous by reporting numbers for the company as a whole. When they break it down by unit, though, if they are publicly traded, you bet they have to be honest. Misleading shareholders in hopes of manipulating stock price is a fairly big no-no, you know.

Worked out great for Enron.

Are people really this naïve about corporations?

 

There are countless legal ways for a corporation to shuffle numbers around to make any unit within that corporation look more or less profitable than it really is. This happens all the time. It's not illegal in any way.

They're not citing profit, they're citing revenue. Unlike profit(which can be measured in any number of ways), revenue is pretty straightforward.

Worked out great for Enron.

Jail time is rather severe for accounting fraud, and together with SOX makes deceit a rarity.

They're not citing profit, they're citing revenue. Unlike profit(which can be measured in any number of ways), revenue is pretty straightforward.

Follow the balance sheets and ye shall find the truth.

I think it's safe to say that most people are aware that misleading stockholders by outright fudging revenue numbers is a quick and easy way to find yourself in prison.

I doubt very much that anyone at EA cares enough about TOR's revenue numbers to do something like that, so we can all safely assume that the numbers are true.

They can be ambiguous by reporting numbers for the company as a whole. When they break it down by unit, though, if they are publicly traded, you bet they have to be honest. Misleading shareholders in hopes of manipulating stock price is a fairly big no-no, you know.

CK doesn't get it, though. It is not just a no, no, it risks the entire company. The entire corporation can be shutdown almost over night.

And it isn't the FTC that would do it. Once malfeasance has been established, fines levied, people possibly thrown in prison, there is a run on the company. Investors dump their stock and the whole corporation goes down the toilet. There are some very well known examples of just how detrimental it is, Enron, MCI, etc. etc.

CK they can spin things all they want, but on their earnings reports, fiscal calls and on their balance sheets they will not lie. Why? Because it is in their self interest not too. They can only continue to make money if they stay in business, that is why they don't lie on those reports. They are subject to audits by investors and the goverment so... it all comes out in the wash so to speak.

They can be ambiguous by reporting numbers for the company as a whole. When they break it down by unit, though, if they are publicly traded, you bet they have to be honest. Misleading shareholders in hopes of manipulating stock price is a fairly big no-no, you know.

You mean like the global financial collapse and all the people in jail for that? Oh wait. Nobody is in jail for that because they would first have to be charged, which they weren't.

You mean like the global financial collapse and all the people in jail for that? Oh wait. Nobody is in jail for that because they would first have to be charged, which they weren't.

Enron, MCI.