Ehhh.......I guess. But to address the whole

 

"They never fought so how do we know who wins?"

 

True, but you look at a characters feats and go from that to determine a winner.

It's an interesting view, but I don't really care for the whole 'destroy an army single-handedly' thing. Just thought I would throw in my explanation for it.

That's how you do it. In a hypothetical vs. match, we go off of what we know about the characters to decide the victor.

I notice people are throwing around the phrase oneness like its a stim or something. Its not, its a very rare ability achieved be very few in the galactic history. Wookiepedia only lists 8, among them are Luke Skywalker, Anakin Skywalker and Jacen Solo. Some of the most powerful Jedi who ever existed. So if we are assuming Revan achieved oneness with the Force, then he must be extremely powerful. In a fight of course Windu would win, but it wouldn't be a slap down victory, there would be a fight. Nor would I say compared to all other Jedi in galactic history Revan was obsolete, I'd say he's still up there at the top. Malgus vs Revan would be a near equal match, as would Revan vs Satele. But that's a whole different debate.

 

Ultimately, all we can say is Revan is an exceptional Jedi, and leave it at that.

Actually, Oneness isn't only applied to powerful people. We see this with Barriss Offee. She's not super-powerful and it happened to her, multiple times. It does not matter how powerful you are, the Force is not picky. Oneness is not something that you can just do. It is a moment in which the Force unifies with a being, granting an exceptional amount of clarity and power within the Force. You can't just activate it and insta-win. If the Will of the Force deems it necessary for you to win, it will intervene.

Revan's moment of Oneness makes him unique, but it does not make him exceptional as it is not an ability that one can just activate. We can only say that Revan was exceptional, but not all-powerful.

Actually, Oneness isn't only applied to powerful people. We see this with Barriss Offee. She's not super-powerful and it happened to her, multiple times. It does not matter how powerful you are, the Force is not picky. Oneness is not something that you can just do. It is a moment in which the Force unifies with a being, granting an exceptional amount of clarity and power within the Force. You can't just activate it and insta-win. If the Will of the Force deems it necessary for you to win, it will intervene.

 

Revan's moment of Oneness makes him unique, but it does not make him exceptional as it is not an ability that one can just activate. We can only say that Revan was exceptional, but not all-powerful.

You forget that....... Barriss Offee use, in the two cases......... something that amp. her connection with the force..

Amp, you get what I mean? Amp her connection to the force... If you have a high connection to the force, this could happen, that's why The Chosen One could do this "so well".

The problem with Oneness is that I liked when only Anakin (Luke, in the C-Canon) could do it, was something with this bloodline. Now, everyone can do it if s/he have enough connection to the force.

I could do multiple things, but I'm tired.. so I'll say only that: the problem is that everyone wants to be right, doesn't matter, we just have to read all the posts and see that. No one wants to be wrond, hell... this happened before in all our history. But guys, this doesn't make no one right or wrong. Everyone has the right to have a point of view. If world of God (or the Force, or the entity of universe, or call whatever is from the "universe" in discuss, in this case, the Creator) goes as law, so that's it. But in this case, I never see it, I see he say many times something, then he goes back to what he said... And people just assume that True, is what feels nice to her..

I say it before, I'm wrong, but I accept it as part of myself, because I know that I'm not the One who can claims what is right or wrong, so I goes with the last.

Everyones wants the best that suits himself, others wants the best to all the others, others wants the worse.. who is right? I don't know, no one knows, only the creator (or creators/engineers of the universe) could know. And, until now, I'm not the One.

Wow, when I first posted on this thread there were no posts. I was like, hey guess there won't be a flame war. How wrong I was.

 

But anyway, I'm a little puzzled about a few things, and I have a few arguments to make, so here goes:

 

1. Using both sides of the Force: apparently this is impossible, but what exactly are 'light side powers'. In my book, the light side of the Force, is just the Force and the dark side of the Force is a corrupted version of it (sort of, more like the extreme pinnacle of the Force which can only be achieved through corruption) So surely a master of the dark side, say Sidious, can use certain lightside powers? Again this comes down to what you define as a light side power. Wookiepedia for example lists 'force stun' as a lightside power - and yet I'm sure Sidious could use force stun with one hand and force lightining with the other simultaneously. It also lists Force blinding as light side, but surely a dark sider could use that too? Then there's malacia and moricho that Aurbere talked about. Of course with some powers it seems to make sense e.g. Force Valor, Wall of Light, Force healing and Force Light etcera. But what about the others, surely Revan could use those and dark side powers simultaneously. (And also, what exactly do you mean? are we talking about using them at the same time, or using one then switching to the other?) Clarification please!

 

2. The battle with Revan at the foundry. At first he fights like any Jedi, and then as the battle progresses he falls back on the dark side, doesn't this prove you wrong? Or would you say he was using the dark side all along? Oh, and may I add Aurbere & Co. that I'm afraid BioWare are against you on this one. Remember the duel with Revan at the Foundry? How he chucks meteors at you (could Yoda do that?) And remember how it kept saying stuff like 'Revan has become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!' and remember, this ones important 'Revan has become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of' Yes, yes I know, it doesn't really count. But still, these are the writers talking here, the guys that made Revan, and they seem to think he was super, super tough. May I also add that at this point he glows yellowy/white indicating oneness with the light side of the Force, only later to start using force lightning. Basically what I'm saying is that while you guys may think your in the right and educating all these Revan fanboi's, you have to consider it may be the reverse and that Revan is super tough and you just don't want to accept it. After all, what evidence is there to suggest he is not? (Yes that is a challenge

 

(Oh and please explain your explanation for Revan's become one with the force yada yada in the Revan novel - not sure I fully understand)

 

3. Revan and his battle tactics. From what I gather from these posts, Revan was pretty smart to use the Mandalorian's tactics against them and Malachor V was a stroke of (sort of twisted) genius. And no one yet has discussed the Jedi Civil War, he was winning. But hey, he had Malak, Karath etcera to back him up. So I'd say he wasn't a tactical genius, but a highly skilled tactician compared to other Jedi. What do you think? (I think its time to find some common ground)

 

P.S. I am not a Revan Fanboi, come on I'm too caught up in by Kreia Fanboism to deal with that. I'm just trying to establish some ground here.

Well said

Yeah things are turning into a flame war here. You do bring up some logical points that I would like to address.

 

1. In the case of using both sides of the Force. It is impossible. We aren't talking about using Light Side and Dark Side powers at once. We are speaking about the instance in the Revan novel where it talks about Revan letting both sides flow through him (yada yada). It's been set forth already that you cannot have both sides flowing through you at the same time. What we see Revan do against the Emperor can only be defined as Oneness. A moment in which the Force takes control of a being. After Revan's moment of Oneness ended, he got the smackdown by the Emperor. This is what we are talking about with both sides being used.

 

2. In the case of Revan having access to powers from either side. Of course he does. But people make the mistake of thinking that being able to use powers from the Light Side as well as the Dark Side makes him super-powerful. It really doesn't.

 

3. Now each side has certain specific powers that require a certain degree of "alignment" (for lack of a better word) to each side. There are a whole host of "universal" powers that each side can use. Force Stun would be one of them. The number of "Side-specific" powers is actually very few. Compared to the number of powers out there, of course. You mentioned Malacia and Morichro and I would like to clear some things up in this case. Malacia was created by Oppo Rancisis, so Revan would not know of it. Morichro was a restricted and forbidden ability to the Jedi, unless they had the mental prowess to control it. The Jedi Council would most likely not allow Revan to learn such an ability for two reasons. 1: They would fear that he couldn't control it, which is likely. 2. He would make a dangerous enemy if he fell again.

 

4. Discussing the Foundry. Revan started off fighting like a Jedi, but much like in the Revan novel, he fell to the Dark Side when he started losing. It doesn't really prove me wrong as we have seen other Jedi fall to the Dark Side, or come close, during times of high stress. Nomen Karr fell, Jai Maruk almost fell, Qui-Gon Jinn almost fell. Now for the meteors. If you look in the background, you can see giant rocks falling down around you. Revan merely directed them towards the strike team. He didn't really chuck meteors. And yes, Yoda could move meteors if he wanted to. Now I don't think he went Oneness during the fight. I think he uses this one ability that gives him that glowing thing. Been a while since I did Foundry and I only saw him do it once.

 

5. There's no doubt that Revan's a better tactician than the other Jedi that came with him. That's one of the reasons the Republic gave him command of a sizable fleet. And it was very smart of him to draw them into Malachor V for the MSG to take them out. I'm not saying that he's not smart. I'm saying that to call him a genius is a bit out there.

 

When we look at Revan, we see a powerful guy. No doubt about it. What I am trying to do is bring him back into reality (for Star Wars ) and show people that he really isn't this super-epic OMG powerful guy. In the big picture of Star Wars, he's actually quite average. For his time, he is one of the best.

Well said. I don't see anything here TOO bad for me to argue with.

Your twisting the idea of using and having knowledge of. Revan became very powerful in the dark side at one point of his life. Despite being a Jedi he would still have the knowledge of those abilities. He may not be able to use them to the fullest but he still knows of his powers. And in Star Wars knowledge is power.

 

You can say what you want about his tactics but many characters in the game praise him and you can say "character statement" but some of those character experienced his tactics first hand. I trust what they say.

 

I would not call him god but I would not call him "Average". He was at the level of Jedi Master and could hold his own against a Sith Emperor. Something that only and hand full of Jedi can claim. I would not put him on the same level as Luke or Sidious but I would call him above average compared to most Jedi.

Well said.

Wow, I really don't have to say anything anymore.

You forget that....... Barriss Offee use, in the two cases......... something that amp. her connection with the force..

Amp, you get what I mean? Amp her connection to the force... If you have a high connection to the force, this could happen, that's why The Chosen One could do this "so well".

 

The problem with Oneness is that I liked when only Anakin (Luke, in the C-Canon) could do it, was something with this bloodline. Now, everyone can do it if s/he have enough connection to the force.

 

Again, Oneness is not something that you just 'do'. It just happens. You become an extension of the Force. No one just does it (except Anakin Skywalker, though I will have to do some research around those circumstances), it just happens. If the Force has to intervene in any circumstance, then it will. People make the mistake of thinking that Oneness is this ability that makes someone all-powerful forever. It is only a moment in which the Force makes a being an extension of it's Will. A tool, so to speak. A moment in which the being gains an unparalled connection to the Force. But only during that time.

All I'm going to say is that Revan is among the rare few for this to happen to, but it does not make him equal to those who have acheived it.

How was I confusing using and knowing?

 

Perhaps average was too strong of a word, but there comes a point where Revan becomes obsolete. Be it Lightsaber skills or Force power. He was a real force in his time, but eventually he becomes obsolete to future generations. Like Satele and Malgus.

 

And about the Emperor fight. He didn't really hold his own. He was losing most of the fight, then the Oneness happens. Once Revan becomes a vessel of the Force, he begins to batter away at the Emperor. But once it ended and the Emperor was still standing, Revan got beat. His moment of Oneness was the only highpoint in that duel for him.

You need to embrace the fact that he did not canonically become one with the force at this time. It may seem like it (and it may have happened) but we don't know for sure.

He outwitted them with the Mando's own tactics, sounds like something a skilled tactitian would do.

To be a leader you don't need to know jack about tactics. The key to winning is to put the right people into the right positions and let them do their work. To say that Raven outwitted the Mando's is a bit of a leap in logic. Better to say Raven's team outwitted the Mandos

^This.

 

Revan was pretty much done for without Oneness, T3 and Surik. Once the Oneness ended, T3 got destroyed, and Surik got killed, Revan was pretty much done for. His goose was cooked, so to speak.

 

And I agree. The EP. 3 battle is in an entirely different league than the Revan battle. Not only could Sidious give Vitiate the beat down, but Mace Windu could beat Revan, Scourge, Surik and T3 all by himself. totally different leagues.

Wow. That's not canon supported at all.

Would you like to tell us what source you got this from that says Windu could beat Revan + Scourge + Surik + T3? Because it is BS.

You need to embrace the fact that he did not canonically become one with the force at this time. It may seem like it (and it may have happened) but we don't know for sure.

Since all other alternatives are impossible, the only possible conclusion is that he did achieve Oneness.

But really, saying that he didn't achieve Oneness would actually hurt his case in this scenario. Because being able to use both sides simulateously (impossible as it is) is not all that great.

I'm actually surprised the Revan novel even got printed. The wording in that Oneness moment has become misconstrued as Revan defying G-canon.

Again, Oneness is not something that you just 'do'. It just happens. You become an extension of the Force. No one just does it (except Anakin Skywalker, though I will have to do some research around those circumstances), it just happens. If the Force has to intervene in any circumstance, then it will. People make the mistake of thinking that Oneness is this ability that makes someone all-powerful forever. It is only a moment in which the Force makes a being an extension of it's Will. A tool, so to speak. A moment in which the being gains an unparalled connection to the Force. But only during that time.

 

All I'm going to say is that Revan is among the rare few for this to happen to, but it does not make him equal to those who have acheived it.

See what I mean? When I say that she do it? That happens to her, when she uses this things (I can't call that drugs, I don't remember).

But with Anakin was different (with Luke, not so much, but hey, as I said, I like it more with only the Chosen One. doesn't matter to me in what story comes first).

Again, you do again. You states that I'm here suporting Revan against them. Why I have to do it? I don't want to make you see it, I see it in other way too, so why bring it here?

I really want to understand before I can make assumptions, cuz I'm not like that (only when joking, but I'm tired) nor do I like people like that.

Wow. That's not canon supported at all.

 

Would you like to tell us what source you got this from that says Windu could beat Revan + Scourge + Surik + T3? Because it is BS.

Maybe because he beat Sidious in a duel and is most likely the third or fourth greatest duelist of all time?

Windu would beat Revan easily. So easily that Revan would end up crying like a little baby. Mace Windu is one of the greatest duelists of all time and holds all of the cards in a battle between them.

 

Nyriss put everything into that Lightning blast. Revan used Tutaminis to redirect it back at her. It's her own fault that she could not protect herself from her own Lightning blast.

 

And Revan could not go toe-to-toe with the Emperor. Oneness, T3, Surik, and Scourge were the only reasons he lasted as long as he did. Once Oneness ended, Vitiate destroyed him and T3. And we know what happened to Surik...

Okay Aurbere, I respect you and you seem to be a logical person, but you just crossed the line. You claim you aren't a Revan hater (you act like one) yet you say that Windu would beat Revan "so easily that Revan would end up crying like a baby."

I imagine you said this to anger us Revanites. Also what you said isn't canon supported at all.

See what I mean? When I say that she do it? That happens to her, when she uses this things (I can't call that drugs, I don't remember).

But with Anakin was different (with Luke, not so much, but hey, as I said, I like it more with only the Chosen One. doesn't matter to me in what story comes first).

 

Again, you do again. You states that I'm here suporting Revan against them. Why I have to do it? I don't want to make you see it, I see it in other way too, so why bring it here?

I really want to understand before I can make assumptions, cuz I'm not like that (only when joking, but I'm tired) nor do I like people like that.

I'm not saying you're supporting Revan. And it really wouldn't matter to me which side you take. Each side has its views and I was not trying to force my views on anyone. What I did was clear up some issues with Revan. People took offense and now here we are.

As to Oneness. I do see what you mean. And I would prefer if it were only a Skywalker thing, but who are we to argue with the Will of the Force?

I see alot of Revan fanboys say stuff like that when Revan is clearly out-matched.

 

Anyway. The point of this thread was to address certain misconceptions surrounding Revan and bring a little truth to them. Which I believe I have done. People only flame me because they know I'm right... Either that or they're just mad.

Aw so we're mad now huh?

Okay Aurbere, I respect you and you seem to be a logical person, but you just crossed the line. You claim you aren't a Revan hater (you act like one) yet you say that Windu would beat Revan "so easily that Revan would end up crying like a baby."

 

I imagine you said this to anger us Revanites. Also what you said isn't canon supported at all.

Actually I can paint a pretty clear picture of how easily Windu beats Revan. It's not really a contest.

Windu has Shatterpoint, so the moment Revan takes up a fighting stance, he's already lost. Mace would see right through it and destroy Revan's defenses. Once Revan sees that his chances of winning are decreasing, he starts to sink into the Dark Side for some extra power. Exactly what Windu needs to put this duel away. Mace Windu would begin taking in the Dark energies with Vaapad and allow the Force to control his movements. Enhanced by Revan's Dark energies, Mace Windu would utilize Juyo and Vaapad to beat Revan quite easily.

Simply put, Mace Windu is leagues ahead of Revan.

I'm not saying you're supporting Revan. And it really wouldn't matter to me which side you take. Each side has its views and I was not trying to force my views on anyone. What I did was clear up some issues with Revan. People took offense and now here we are.

 

As to Oneness. I do see what you mean. And I would prefer if it were only a Skywalker thing, but who are we to argue with the Will of the Force?

No, that isn't the case. You can do what you think is right or nice. But that doesn't make this true or really ok.

Why? Cause what we say'll never been always the truth or something right.

My side is my own, its a history, how can I take side with a character? or go against it? Sorry, but this would be sad.

And this never was the Will of the Force, you know that, I really hope so.. this was the Will of the creators of many history in star wars. Because I always seems the Will of the Force asking for something different, when its from writer A or B or C or fan or whatever.

Aw so we're mad now huh?

Not at all. In fact, I'm actually quite calm right now. No need to try to provoke me, we're all friends here.

 

And this never was the Will of the Force, you know that, I really hope so.. this was the Will of the creators of many history in star wars. Because I always seems the Will of the Force asking for something different, when its from writer A or B or C or fan or whatever.

I was speaking about the Will of the Force in Star Wars. Of course the writers, GL and Chee will decide what happens in Star Wars. It was more of a joke, I guess.

Not at all. In fact, I'm actually quite calm right now. No need to try to provoke me, we're all friends here.

I got that but you just said that I was mad because I disagree with you. Not exactly friendly stuff.

Actually I can paint a pretty clear picture of how easily Windu beats Revan. It's not really a contest.

 

Windu has Shatterpoint, so the moment Revan takes up a fighting stance, he's already lost. Mace would see right through it and destroy Revan's defenses. Once Revan sees that his chances of winning are decreasing, he starts to sink into the Dark Side for some extra power. Exactly what Windu needs to put this duel away. Mace Windu would begin taking in the Dark energies with Vaapad and allow the Force to control his movements. Enhanced by Revan's Dark energies, Mace Windu would utilize Juyo and Vaapad to beat Revan quite easily.

 

Simply put, Mace Windu is leagues ahead of Revan.

The problem with Raven is that he of all the Star Wars characters he was a player character in a game where the players felt he was their character. Players always feel their character is the most powerful character in the universe. Granted other characters have also been PCs but Raven's game story is very good and he ended up with a large fan base. This is why I think many paint him as being some force god and endlessly argue about how he can defeat any who oppose him.

I was speaking about the Will of the Force in Star Wars. Of course the writers, GL and Chee will decide what happens in Star Wars. It was more of a joke, I guess.

thats the same..... the Will of the Force in Star Wars isn't the same...... you can just see the point of view of many writers.. so my answers remains the same.

Yeah, the writes are a part of the ones who decides, but above them, hah.. who knows who puts the strings right now?

I got that but you just said that I was mad because I disagree with you. Not exactly friendly stuff.

That was a joke as well. Notice the . I've been trying to keep this thread friendly, but sometimes everyone loses their head. It happens. Nothing for us to get all huffy about

Actually I can paint a pretty clear picture of how easily Windu beats Revan. It's not really a contest.

 

Windu has Shatterpoint, so the moment Revan takes up a fighting stance, he's already lost. Mace would see right through it and destroy Revan's defenses. Once Revan sees that his chances of winning are decreasing, he starts to sink into the Dark Side for some extra power. Exactly what Windu needs to put this duel away. Mace Windu would begin taking in the Dark energies with Vaapad and allow the Force to control his movements. Enhanced by Revan's Dark energies, Mace Windu would utilize Juyo and Vaapad to beat Revan quite easily.

Well that's one scenario. Shatterpoint and Windu's fantastic lightsaber techniques doesn't mean he would automatically win.