From a healer's point of view who is also a tank:

 

This goes only for random HM FP's. In Ops i assume the tank knows that he's doing and guards the best dps.

 

So. Personally when I tank I guard the strongest DPS.

When I'm healing, I'd rather have the tanks guard on me. Why? Because 95% of the tanks has no idea how to taunt or keep ALL enemies on him, for the entire fight. I myself know this but most don't.

In 75% of those 95% of the cases the DPS go for the strongest enemy first just like the tank does.

This causes ALL the other adds to fire on me because I'm the only one with aggro on them.

 

I am so sick and tired of this happening almost every ****in FP.

 

end /rant

From a healer's point of view who is also a tank:

 

This goes only for random HM FP's. In Ops i assume the tank knows that he's doing and guards the best dps.

 

So. Personally when I tank I guard the strongest DPS.

When I'm healing, I'd rather have the tanks guard on me. Why? Because 95% of the tanks has no idea how to taunt or keep ALL enemies on him, for the entire fight. I myself know this but most don't.

In 75% of those 95% of the cases the DPS go for the strongest enemy first just like the tank does.

This causes ALL the other adds to fire on me because I'm the only one with aggro on them.

 

I am so sick and tired of this happening almost every ****in FP.

 

end /rant

 

this is because you start blasting heals on tank the instant they agro a pack

 

if you're not cc'ing anything, 1 dmg ae from the tank should be enough to keep adds off the healer for the whole fight.

 

keeping them off dps is another story of course

For the record all of you who claim guard only has damage reduction in PVP.... YOU should read the tooltip. the 50% damage transfer is PVP only, HOWEVER the 5% damage reduction and 25% threat reduction occur in PVE and PVP. The 5% reduction is NOT PvP dependent. That being said... if you guard a healer, you're bad and you should feel bad

this is because you start blasting heals on tank the instant they agro a pack

 

if you're not cc'ing anything, 1 dmg ae from the tank should be enough to keep adds off the healer for the whole fight.

 

keeping them off dps is another story of course

 

lolno.

 

DPS who aggro strongs and start taking damage = need to heal.

 

A tank who jumps in and leads with a taunt before an AOE damage ability = healer will rip in exactly 6 seconds if they toss any heals at all, let alone an AoE heal or a HoT.

 

You make all of your generalizations thinking tanks know how to play their class. By and large, on my server, half the tanks that queue without full groups are DPSers in tank stance without gear and skill, or are in tionese or worse. My healer is in full campaign, my MDPS in half dread guard. I have to remind the tanks *constantly* to guard me as DPS, and if they don't, I apologize to the healer immediately for making them work hard. As for healing .. if I have a bad tank, I can keep them up, but i spend most of my time DPSing because otherwise I'd be meat.

 

That's why I pretty much exclusively run guild HMFP runs now. There's far, far too much bad.

Any tank who starts with a taunt on any fight = fail. taunts give 130% threat compared to the current highest active threat on the target. therefore taunts should only be used after using high threat abilities such as slow time or force breach and any other aoes if it's an aoe pull. at that point the 130% threat would mean that the taunt will allow you to keep aggro until the pull is over for the most part, because trash pulls die fast. 130% of 0 threat still = 0% so as he stated, in 6 seconds, someone else is pulling aggro if the tank opens with that ability Edited January 17, 2013 by ElQuesoGrande

sorry I must've missed where I typed a tank should open with a taunt

 

I'm going to analyze my 3 sentence post again and try to find it.... gimme a sec.

For the record all of you who claim guard only has damage reduction in PVP.... YOU should read the tooltip. the 50% damage transfer is PVP only, HOWEVER the 5% damage reduction and 25% threat reduction occur in PVE and PVP. The 5% reduction is NOT PvP dependent. That being said... if you guard a healer, you're bad and you should feel bad

 

The thing is that if I run a fp with random people unless I see that a DPS has clearly better gear than the other one and should deal more damage, I am not going to ask: "ok which of you guys is the better DPS?" I'll just guard the healer and pay attention to the first pulls. If I see that none of them is pulling agro the healer will keep my guard either way I will give it to whichever DPS seems to get too much threat.

Edited January 17, 2013 by demotivator

So, there are times when, as a tank, I *do* guard the healer. TfB Second Phase is an obvious example, but even in flashpoints, I'll pop it on the healer during something like Kaon for trash pulls (swapping it back to high-DPS during bosses). Guard *is* a damage reduction in PvE, though only 5%, and the threat reduction makes it easier to hold mobs under a lot of cases. Healers will still pre-pull (particularly commandos), but the guard reduces their AoE threat to the point where it is negligible, so a single hit on everything, or even my own healing agro (as a shadow) can generally keep things rounded up.

 

Blindly AoE taunting is terrible advice, btw. Because of the way that taunts magnify threat, you want to pop your AoE taunt at a *minimum* after you've hit everything, or ideally only in emergencies. Tanks who lead with a taunt end up losing agro very quickly and getting themselves stuck in a situation where they don't have agro and can't get it back since their taunts are on CD.

 

In general though, yeah, I share your frustration. Mostly because bad guard strategy is usually a sign of a bad tank who doesn't think things through, and therefore a precursor to a horrible run.

You're right that guarding the dps is more optimal in most situations, but when you are faced with potentially lower skilled/geared players guarding the healer is a safer option. In any group finder flashpoint, a mdps doing 1500 dps probably is geared and skilled enough to avoid dying on his own, but you might have a minimally geared healer that may die to adds. If the healer dies, its usually a guaranteed wipe in most situations, but if dps dies, there is still a chance to complete. Basically, when faced with an uncertain pug, some tanks might prefer the safer option where you tone down your dps for a slower but more certain clear.

Everyone seems to be in general agreement here, there are of course specific situations where you should guard the healer.

 

The point however is:

A tank that joins a flashpoint or operation, without any previous knowledge of the other players' skill, who doesn't even bother inspecting anyone, and just slaps a guard on the first healer he can find is doing a poor job.

 

First and foremost tanks are "aggro" managers, not punching bags as some believe (eg. the guy who once told me his character is "built for taking damage"). Part of that aggro management begins before the fight starts, by assessing the other players.

 

For example, when I join any group I check the following on every player:

• What is their guild?
  
• Is their stance correct?
  
• Do they have all the class buffs?
  
• Do they have a stim on?
  
• What is the tier of their gear?
  
• Is the gear optimized or just stock?
  
• Do they have a set bonus?
  
• Are the operation introduction quests completed?
  
• Are the vehicle achievement quests completed?
  

 

These are some of the indicators a tank should be aware of before deciding who to put their guard on, unfortunatly they are overlooked by the vast majority of PuG tanks.

There are players on The Red Eclipse that haven't heard of your guild?

 

There are some of us that' don't really care. Besides, people are more likely to remember bad players (hence this thread) than the good ones that do their job.

 

I wouldn't have even known that I've played with Qvasar before had I not looked at his signature. Kamii rang a bell from a recent PUG KP HM weekly quest run. I remembered the name because he was on my Sorno team and the raid because it was mostly some Russian dudes leeroying around and making the run a bit too chaotic for my personal preference.

 

Other than that - I remember the bad ones. Players and guilds both. The very worst of the players get a free membership to my ignore list. The bad guilds just make me more alert when I get them in flashpoints.

Because HM fp are so terribly difficult, and this is such a life or death issue.

They obviously are for some players.

From a healer's point of view who is also a tank:

 

This goes only for random HM FP's. In Ops i assume the tank knows that he's doing and guards the best dps.

 

So. Personally when I tank I guard the strongest DPS.

When I'm healing, I'd rather have the tanks guard on me. Why? Because 95% of the tanks has no idea how to taunt or keep ALL enemies on him, for the entire fight. I myself know this but most don't.

In 75% of those 95% of the cases the DPS go for the strongest enemy first just like the tank does.

This causes ALL the other adds to fire on me because I'm the only one with aggro on them.

 

I am so sick and tired of this happening almost every ****in FP.

 

end /rant

 

funny thing is guarding you is still not going to change the situation, your still going to heal him, the adds are still going to attack you cause noone else is gaining aggro on them, reducing it by 5% will do not a dam thing lol. So again its pointless to guard you.

 

if im healing and a tank guards me, i just remove it and tell him who to guard.

 

if im dpsing and i DONT get guard (im PT dps) i just hold no punches and constantly rip aggro off him till he wakes up and guards me.

 

if im tanking i will always guard the top dps, not right away cause u can gauge it properly till you see what they can do, as some people in good gear r really just terribad players.

they think its also a damage reduction, but us people that can read know this is infact only for pvp and not pve.

 

There is a dmg reduction in pve as well. It's only 5% and not really worth mentioning.

I agree with the op and I hate heals who ask for guard in PvE.

From a healer's point of view who is also a tank:

 

From a tank's perspective: Many people in FP's have no idea how to position themselves and pay little attention to their surroundings. They will break cc even if marked. They will decide the tank doesn't know what to do and aggro unneccessary mobs. They wil stand in the path of a patrolling droid. They will stand beside the droid and get thrown off a bridge. They can't drive their speeders to save their lives.

 

I'll stop here, I feel I'm getting nervous by just typing this ****.

Any tank who starts with a taunt on any fight = fail. taunts give 130% threat compared to the current highest active threat on the target. therefore taunts should only be used after using high threat abilities such as slow time or force breach and any other aoes if it's an aoe pull. at that point the 130% threat would mean that the taunt will allow you to keep aggro until the pull is over for the most part, because trash pulls die fast. 130% of 0 threat still = 0% so as he stated, in 6 seconds, someone else is pulling aggro if the tank opens with that ability

 

What you say about threat mechanics is true, however that doesn't mean that there's no reason to start a pull with a taunt. I'll sometimes use a taunt either to start a LOS pull or to gather melee mobs in order to AOE them. This is particularly useful on my shadow, where my taunt has a greater range than my damage abilities; I do this much less frequently on my powertech who obviously has better ranged damage abilities.

Edited January 18, 2013 by Ms_Sunlight

Wouldn't it be easier to just keep a TPS window in-game and decide after that who's the best choice to guard?

What you say about threat mechanics is true, however that doesn't mean that there's no reason to start a pull with a taunt. I'll sometimes use a taunt either to start a LOS pull or to gather melee mobs in order to AOE them. This is particularly useful on my shadow, where my taunt has a greater range than my damage abilities; I do this much less frequently on my powertech who obviously has better ranged damage abilities.

 

Force Pull - 30m - Instantly pulls target to you and generates threat. If target is immune to physics, it will just generate threat. More threat than Taunt will because 130% of nothing is nothing, and unless you hit it, after 6 seconds there's no guarantee that you'll keep aggro.

When I'm on my DPS Sage, I have two Stims, a Fortitude Stim and a Resolve Stim. I make the choice based on whether I'm going to be tanking or not. I have given up on the guard issue. I'll just slow down DPS if I need to drop some threat. Edited January 18, 2013 by Master-Nala

Force Pull - 30m - Instantly pulls target to you and generates threat. If target is immune to physics, it will just generate threat. More threat than Taunt will because 130% of nothing is nothing, and unless you hit it, after 6 seconds there's no guarantee that you'll keep aggro.

 

...and sometimes if I'm doing a LOS pull to collect more than 1 mob I do not want one of them pulled to me, I want them to all arrive together so I can Slow Time / Force Breach them when they come round the corner or whatever, especially if running with AOE DPS like a sage or commando. Plus, Mind Control has a much shorter cooldown than Force Pull.

 

I'm not saying I do it in all situations or that it's always appropriate, just that making different use of the abilities open to me does not make me a fail tank. There are lots of ways to get the job done effectively.

Everyone seems to be in general agreement here, there are of course specific situations where you should guard the healer.

 

The point however is:

A tank that joins a flashpoint or operation, without any previous knowledge of the other players' skill, who doesn't even bother inspecting anyone, and just slaps a guard on the first healer he can find is doing a poor job.

 

First and foremost tanks are "aggro" managers, not punching bags as some believe (eg. the guy who once told me his character is "built for taking damage"). Part of that aggro management begins before the fight starts, by assessing the other players.

 

For example, when I join any group I check the following on every player:

• What is their guild?
  
• Is their stance correct?
  
• Do they have all the class buffs?
  
• Do they have a stim on?
  
• What is the tier of their gear?
  
• Is the gear optimized or just stock?
  
• Do they have a set bonus?
  
• Are the operation introduction quests completed?
  
• Are the vehicle achievement quests completed?
  

 

These are some of the indicators a tank should be aware of before deciding who to put their guard on, unfortunatly they are overlooked by the vast majority of PuG tanks.

 

Yea I'll do that all for an operation. For a FP, I usually don't bother with guard until someone proves they need it. If there's a Mara or PT or maybe sniper over like 21k health, I may give em guard, tho usually I just look at it as a challenge to see if I can hold threat without.

this is because you start blasting heals on tank the instant they agro a pack

 

if you're not cc'ing anything, 1 dmg ae from the tank should be enough to keep adds off the healer for the whole fight.

 

keeping them off dps is another story of course

on my merc heal i puled agro lots of times off tank depending on a grup build my merc have 61-63 gear most of hm fp in a grup with columi players i will pull agro easy

 

Amusing fact: I once had a tank tell me to "stop taunting"... on a sentinel...

 

 

I always hit the big DPS with Guard, and understand what you are talking about, but do you know how many Guardian DPS do not use Focused Defense to help keep their threat down?

on my merc heal i puled agro lots of times off tank depending on a grup build my merc have 61-63 gear most of hm fp in a grup with columi players i will pull agro easy

 

If you're pulling aggro as a healer, then there is something seriously wrong with the DPS you bring with you. I have a 61 geared tank and I have run with 63 geared dps and healers and they NEVER pull aggro. It's all about how you use your abilities.