R2, from what I remember, is pretty much always referred to as 'he'.

 

Female droids? There's the diner waitress in Episode 2. if we go EU, the assassin droid from Shadows of the Empire (as a human replica, it could be used for sex, according to the book), and Clone Wars had an apparent female Astromech working with R2 on an infiltration mission - painted pink and named QT.

 

Then there's this idea that George had. Yes, in-universe most of the droids are probably designed by men, which can explain this stuff... but a Bettie Page-bot?

snip

 

Then there's this idea that George had. Yes, in-universe most of the droids are probably designed by men, which can explain this stuff... but a Bettie Page-bot?

 

Ehm what? Even in our Universe things aren't that sexist. Did you know the car you're driving in is designed by a whole team of designers, including women, gay men and trans people? Why would the Star Wars universe be more sexist then ours?

of course, I'm left wondering- should we also be pushing for robosexual romance options in game?

 

I'm just being silly.

Ehm what? Even in our Universe things aren't that sexist. Did you know the car you're driving in is designed by a whole team of designers, including women, gay men and trans people? Why would the Star Wars universe be more sexist then ours?

 

Today, yes, but fifty years ago, cars were designed by men period end of discussion. Women were heavily pushed to do things like not design cars.

QT was Ms. Male R2? I am not surprised.

 

Also, those... BD-3000 droids? Ugh that's just ew.

 

If we assume that the majority of droids are designed as "male", then this goes back to the idea that "maleness" is the default - something this universe suffers heavily from. (When I was younger and saw the Phantom Menace - I was 10, holy crap - I thought all Jedi were men. Just... you couldn't be a Jedi if you were a woman. It still seems to be a male coded thing - a lot of what is deemed to be masculine is denial of emotions, or ignoring them. What do Jedi do? They're not emotional. Sith, on the other hand, use emotions, but they use very "masculine" emotions: rage, anger, hate* - Sith are rarely shown (I don't have EU material to hand, nor have I read any, so feel free to correct me) as feeling or using any other emotions, like love, happiness, joy, sadness** to be a part of their Force Connection. So in a way, both the concepts of Sith and Jedi shove the idea of what could be feminine to one side and embrace most aspects of what it is to be masculine.)

 

 

*Yes, women are shown in popular media to feel these emotions as well, but oftentimes, unlike with men, these emotions ultimately make the woman weak, whereas the man is deemed to be strong

**If they feel sadness, it very quickly turns to anger and hate, ala Anakin Skywalker

Today, yes, but fifty years ago, cars were designed by men period end of discussion. Women were heavily pushed to do things like not design cars.

 

I can't find the *********** link now, BUT

 

It used to be that all computer programmers were women - back in the 60's - but there were a few men programmers. Men programmers got sick of their work being perceived as "women's work", so they deliberately started to drive women out of the programming field, and made up the airs of it being an "all boy's club", so that they wouldn't be associated with doing something as demeaning as "women's work".

 

It's interesting to think that something women are supposed to do in the home - cook, take care of the sick - suddenly becomes a male only career when put in a professional environment: chefs, doctors.

Ehm what? Even in our Universe things aren't that sexist. Did you know the car you're driving in is designed by a whole team of designers, including women, gay men and trans people? Why would the Star Wars universe be more sexist then ours?

 

That was in reference to the Bettie Pagebots and Guri - I'm just saying, "let's design this thing so ***** can be stuck in it" usually isn't the result of female-dominated design teams.

I can't find the *********** link now, BUT

 

It used to be that all computer programmers were women - back in the 60's - but there were a few men programmers. Men programmers got sick of their work being perceived as "women's work", so they deliberately started to drive women out of the programming field, and made up the airs of it being an "all boy's club", so that they wouldn't be associated with doing something as demeaning as "women's work".

 

It's interesting to think that something women are supposed to do in the home - cook, take care of the sick - suddenly becomes a male only career when put in a professional environment: chefs, doctors.

 

Just an FYI, "computer" was originally the title of a job primarily performed by women. Men were still the "programmers". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Computers for a random example, there are plenty more.

 

/popcorn

If a droid has a neutral appearance and is referred to as it then how is it still coed as male?

Just an FYI, "computer" was originally the title of a job primarily performed by women. Men were still the "programmers". See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_Computers for a random example, there are plenty more.

 

/popcorn

 

1960's, not 1860's.

 

And I'm well aware of the origin of the term "computer". But thank you for your attempt to troll? I guess at least you made yourself some popcorn? Well done, I guess?

 

 

 

So, about the perceived "maleness" of the Sith and Jedi orders - like I said, I've not read the EU material where this is pretty stamped out, but I imagine that the majority of writers are (cishet, probably white) men? What do you guys think about the "maleness" of the Star Wars setting?

 

 

If a droid has a neutral appearance and is referred to as it then how is it still coed as male?

 

Noooooooo this would have been perfect D:

 

Argh - I knows there's some stuff on masculine-coded stuff being perceived as gender neutral because "man don't have gender" (gender being something attributed to women, as we say "gender studies", "gender violence" etc.) but I can't find the right stuff at the moment.)

 

It harkens to the idea that femaleness is explicit - it's noticeable and it's different. Maleness, vice-versa, is the standard, it just "is". A lot of what is perceived androgyny is a lack of noticeable sexual features (almost akin to prepubescence): small breasts, slim hips, no discernible waist &etc. - "male" clothing is also perceived to be more androgynous, in general, sharp lines, trousers, that sort of stuff.

 

It's asking whether the Star Wars universe perceives "maleness" to be a default and "femaleness" to be an other, to what the genderless automatons would then be perceived as (and, remember, it's rare they assign themselves these, it's forced on them) because in the mainstream of our world, genderless-ness is generally more associated with a certain amount of masculinity than it is with femininity - if, say, an otherwise genderless child is being raised, they might show a favouring of coded-feminine things and people will go "Ah, yes, this child wishes to be a girl. She will be a girl now." but there are less things that would be inherently coded-masculine of what said child could be become interested in - we do like to categorise children into "definitely boy" and "definitely girl" and... hrm :/

 

Basically, if we have male as the assumed default, it's more likely that the genderless droids will be ascribed "masculinity", than "femininity", because the "feminine" is perceived as something "other", and not a standard. Make sense?

Edited November 18, 2013 by Tatile

1960's, not 1860's.

 

And I'm well aware of the origin of the term "computer". But thank you for your attempt to troll? I guess at least you made yourself some popcorn? Well done, I guess?

 

Not trolling, I just thought it was relevant. Yes, it was from an earlier period than you quoted, I wasn't trying to contradict you, if anything, what I shared supports your comments about the [1960's] perception of computing as "women's work".

 

The /popcorn wasn't because I found myself amusing, I just assumed most people in this thread would be [justifiably] outraged at such a cavalier attitude, and would have interesting things to say about it. I've read this thread (and its predecessors) for well over a year, if my intent was to troll, I think I could do much better.

Edited November 18, 2013 by eartharioch

Not trolling, I just thought it was relevant. Yes, it was from an earlier period than you quoted, I wasn't trying to contradict you, if anything, what I shared supports your comments about the [1960's] perception of computing as "women's work".

 

The /popcorn wasn't because I found myself amusing, I just assumed most people in this thread would be [justifiably] outraged at such a cavalier attitude, and would have interesting things to say about it. I've read this thread (and its predecessors) for well over a year, if my intent was to troll, I think I could do much better.

 

Fair enough - I see most people grab /popcorn either because they see a flame fest coming or they just started one.

 

Programming itself was the brainchild of a woman - Ada Lovelace - but it's still seen as a man's domain. Curious, as well, that a woman invented science-fiction, which was then also furthered by another woman*, and yet we women, apparently, don't "do" science fiction.

 

*or you could call that science-horror. Margaret Cavendish coined her novel as "fancy"

I would agree with you in this situation if every droid were referred to as 'he' unless given an obviously feminine voice or shape like SCORPIO. But given that the majority of the droids are referred to as 'it' even when they do have a male voice I just don't see it. The default for droids here is no gender, not male.

I would agree with you in this situation if every droid were referred to as 'he' unless given an obviously feminine voice or shape like SCORPIO. But given that the majority of the droids are referred to as 'it' even when they do have a male voice I just don't see it. The default for droids here is no gender, not male.

 

Alright then, that's the answer I was looking for.

I'm curious though, I never actually interacted with SCORPIO beyond what was required but does the game use female pronouns for her? I would assume they do but I never actually checked.

I would agree with you in this situation if every droid were referred to as 'he' unless given an obviously feminine voice or shape like SCORPIO. But given that the majority of the droids are referred to as 'it' even when they do have a male voice I just don't see it. The default for droids here is no gender, not male.

 

Are they, though? Of the top of my head, thinking about just A New Hope, and:

 

"I stumbled across a recording, while cleaning him."

"He claims to be the property of an Obi-Wan Kenobi."

"He excels at that."

 

That last one, and a few other lines, show even 3PO refers to R2 as a 'him'. Given that Astromechs have zero distinguishing features, much less voices, that's a likely sign of male being the 'default'. (3PO receives the 'him' treatment too, but his design makes much more sense for that than an Astromech.)

Programming itself was the brainchild of a woman - Ada Lovelace - but it's still seen as a man's domain. Curious, as well, that a woman invented science-fiction, which was then also furthered by another woman*, and yet we women, apparently, don't "do" science fiction.

 

*or you could call that science-horror. Margaret Cavendish coined her novel as "fancy"

 

Tbh, I'd rather not credit any one (man or woman) with founding the field of programming, since its roots go back pretty far in time (abacus, algorithms, etc.). Nor would I credit any one man or woman with "inventing" science fiction. Tbh, almost anything that anybody "creates" draws in some way from people that preceded them, which (imo) is in some sense everybody (man or woman). Stand+Shoulders+Giants

Edited November 18, 2013 by eartharioch

Are they, though? Of the top of my head, thinking about just A New Hope, and:

 

"I stumbled across a recording, while cleaning him."

"He claims to be the property of an Obi-Wan Kenobi."

"He excels at that."

 

That last one, and a few other lines, show even 3PO refers to R2 as a 'him'. Given that Astromechs have zero distinguishing features, much less voices, that's a likely sign of male being the 'default'. (3PO receives the 'him' treatment too, but his design makes much more sense for that than an Astromech.)

 

Obi-Wan uses it in the prequels I think, but the movies yes, they do use 'he' the majority of the time. I thought we were just talking about this game though.

Obi-Wan uses it in the prequels I think, but the movies yes, they do use 'he' the majority of the time. I thought we were just talking about this game though.

 

Examples in-game I'm more familiar with, but I was also appealing to anyone with knowledge of the EU.

I'm curious though, I never actually interacted with SCORPIO beyond what was required but does the game use female pronouns for her? I would assume they do but I never actually checked.

 

Once you meet her in her mobile platform, yes, she is referred to as she when pronouns are used.

 

EDIT: She's a heuristic intelligence, meaning that she does in fact learn and is not limited to her original programming, and she self-identifies as female, so who are we to tell her she's wrong?

Edited November 18, 2013 by theStirge

Obi-Wan uses it in the prequels I think, but the movies yes, they do use 'he' the majority of the time. I thought we were just talking about this game though.

 

Ah.. I'm trying to remember how 4X is referred to, but I remember T7 gets the 'him' label.

Once you meet her in her mobile platform, yes, she is referred to as she when pronouns are used.

 

EDIT: She's a heuristic intelligence, meaning that she does in fact learn and is not limited to her original programming, and she self-identifies as female, so who are we to tell her she's wrong?

 

I don't think anyone was trying to say that self-identifying is wrong...

Ah.. I'm trying to remember how 4X is referred to, but I remember T7 gets the 'him' label.

 

I'm pretty sure at least some people used 'it' for T7 because I remember expecting 'him' and being surprised. Can't find any source videos though.

The Holonet page has T7 as a he... I'm trying to remember the nutty woman on Pub Nar Shadaa who wants her droid back. I think she calls it a 'he', but I might be getting her confused with the 'overly attached' woman from Kotor. They're both bonkers, so maybe they don't count.

I kind of wish I could play a Droid.