( I wrote this as a blog post for our guilds podcast and website Ootinicast.com, I thought I would also share it with you here. It was mainly an exercise in releasing some tension after falling victim to reading harsh comments on a blog. )

It started a long time ago in a galaxy far, far... actually it was around February of 2012, two or three months after the release of Star Wars: The Old Republic (SWTOR). I’m referring to the unbridled hate for the once falling star that is SWTOR. It began with ingame chat, murmurs about game mechanics and quality of life aspects versus previously-played Massively Multiuser Online Games (MMOs); but now it’s escalated into outright hate and vitriol over the game and its existence. SWTOR has been attempting to stem and repair its dwindling subscription base by fixing and addressing all these complaints about how it does not match up to other MMOs; particularly the “elephant in the room”, World of Warcraft (WoW). While I am not going to argue about subjective opinions, I am going to argue against the passionate hate that seems to plague this game.

A few days ago I saw a story on GameSpy.com covering the future of SWTOR as it expands to face one of the biggest complaints against it back in February: “Not enough end game material.” This was one of the problems that started to lead to early subscription cancellations.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/qnK0nS51RzneZGM4SbwEW9aZAI1ShJwJDh9W8erhwbRNTK-pUUcPJkQ0Q4gID6LZKfwRJPG0oYQfN4GaKtzXGIVsrF9IzWvTDBlx6fWIgUkiBWKT6A

For the hardworking folks at BioWare and EA, adding higher end content is a step in the right direction. This can only be a positive change and may even bring some of the early deserters back into the fold. This is only the most recent dramatic change to SWTOR from its initial release. The demand for the game, that was only one year old in December of 2012, to be better than or on par with WoW, the then eight year old game, is so mind boggling that it leaves one gobsmacked. Should the game ever be exactly like WoW it would also see vitriol including “it is just a clone of WoW” opinions. It seems whatever route the BioWare and EA team try to take they are attacked with hatred.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/7uylUXH2bmSOIfuTpV9Qp3dfj3BCUTlTDG2E0Z-hz1vqq6FL0cny1S2QLpTgN8hPE8Qje-iTVH_u3NjjA__9zXWV6cvh42ndOZtIqPk97OF0Wq9Sqg

The state of the game now is one of recovery from its early and large loss of players that are needed to keep games like SWTOR and WoW alive and entertaining. I played WoW before they even had their first expansion, and before that I played the first Star Wars-themed MMO, Star Wars Galaxies: An Empire Divided (SWG). I experienced both a dying MMO (SWG) and an expanding MMO (WoW) simultaneously. SWG was losing badly to the then new WoW; the game started to become a wasteland devoid of players. This was a double whammy for SWG and all MMOs: less paying subscribers meant no income to maintain the game, and fewer players online meant no enjoyment for the remaining players, thus causing the problem to escalate. For SWTOR to keep the game competitive and enjoyable they had to make changes, and they have, mainly the right ones.The vast majority of players who’ve stuck with it have seen and appreciate the changes. The recent rapid influx of new and old players is testament to my case that Bioware and EA are going down the right path. It is a loud minority, who for some reason are aggressively hateful, and consider any change to be suspect or malevolent.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ThwfClp7DguKzYJYDQYOPjFIsr29ahpykCM6UgQb700KJgiuKioqWWdOM3FDO_H97vYrn7prZWfPgqd_8XCBpYLH69alioN0HZdxD21VYFLZLcgg0Q

Why am I writing this? It is very simple: I love to play SWTOR, I look forward to the changes in the game that will both improve my enjoyment and the enjoyment of others who I want to play with. I know there are problems with the game, because I play it. I will use the resources given to me to help inform developers to make the changes I want; my faith in their ability to do this is why I give my hard-earned income to support the company. It is my subjective opinion that SWTOR is the best MMO and will only get better with my help and those of players like me. There is no true objective answer to “What is the best MMO?” That is why I can not argue about it being the best for you. I stopped playing WoW shortly after the Cataclysm expansion and I have never logged back in, gone back to the forums, or glanced at a story on the internet about the future of the game. I have never posted a negative comment on any site that is promoting or informing its subscribers. This does not mean you don’t have a right to influence change if you don’t pay or play. I am sure Bioware and EA would love to know what it would take to get you to try the game, or bring you back. I would consider suggestions of improvement as constructive criticism. It’s the non-constructive comments that irk me.

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/SyyHJZST0RpRZteETBrDrPfUZKVz_dBI6Q3sO3YBA9yAkndCJnQvj42ifuTzUPm_JKXau0iimQkI3xVicctV461SsleggIeh0mQ9emerUjZX9tl3iA

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/5aOn-B9wI1PGGbrcDzCJMA6YaQxaZuKZfiODBw_-TTFaQABmoBTwBY4sS9Fsa5jMy5Ql0r0nBYpfnpikptAjfr1q2x4-44ZT1D0sPJcLIujXPlCKOg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/8j49rLYuwKlRkndlbUNdtVabOZvI2wHAAolpniMYlmNILkAW395s8s-ntG2Xw-m9mMVT3oUh3pLJseJXa0kU3Xiwb43ADkdlfBrvGJ784JgaOo5CFg

The game does not deserve to be hounded by people who want nothing more than to outdo each other in tearing down a game they want nothing to do with. The internet calls it trolling and cyber bullying, but it’s really sad and pathetic. What drives people to spend energy attacking something they don’t care about? Whatever their drive, it isn’t healthy. This is why SWTOR does not deserve the hate. If you don’t like the game, move on! Let others who may still enjoy it, enjoy it. A comment on a blog has never changed someone’s opinion, so save your energy for something you’re passionate about, and don’t be passionate about your hate.

-Thank you

Nice post. I think the forums need something like this to counter the wall of crap that other people tend to give the game. Whine, whine, moan. I fell into the trap months ago of reading the hate posts and then giving up on the game. Now im back and enjoying the game more than ever, simply because i dont take any notice of the haters doom and gloom any more. Im also looking forward to the future of the game, and new features / expansions etc that will eventually come.

I fully expect the trolls and haters to start posting in this thread to, because there are obviously no other games out there good enough for them.

The internet calls it trolling and cyber bullying, but it’s really sad and pathetic. What drives people to spend energy attacking something they don’t care about? Whatever their drive, it isn’t healthy. This is why SWTOR does not deserve the hate. If you don’t like the game, move on! Let others who may still enjoy it, enjoy it. A comment on a blog has never changed someone’s opinion, so save your energy for something you’re passionate about, and don’t be passionate about your hate.

Good God, sir. Are you trying to break the internet?

On a more serious note, unfortunately that's how it works. People who have nothing better to do with their lives are sad and pathetic and strongly support the argument that misery loves company. So they belittle whatever they do not deem worthy of their precious time and pride themselves on their master troll abilities. The saddest part about the whole thing is that most likely their life will amount to nothing more than endless evenings home alone, in front of a computer, trying to bring down things and people's lives just so they can feel a bit better about their own.

But, once again, that's the state of the internet. Posts like these would've been much less back when the internet wasn't so obsessed with how 'cool' trolling is.

I personally do not care about other people's opinions for the things that I enjoy. When they are making sense and not just endlessly hating and repeating memes to prove a non-existent point, I take them into consideration and I judge for myself whether those arguments are things that annoy me too or if I just don't give a damn about it.

You shouldn't either.

SWTOR doesn't deserve so much hate, that's true, but people are like that. Yesterday it was WoW, today is Swtor and tomorrow will be GW2 or ESO. It's funny if you think about it. All these people in their infinite wisdom, not being able to comprehend that some people genuinely enjoy some of the things they don't. Laugh at their ignorance and sad lives and move on

Good God, sir. Are you trying to break the internet?

On a more serious note, unfortunately that's how it works. People who have nothing better to do with their lives are sad and pathetic and strongly support the argument that misery loves company. So they belittle whatever they do not deem worthy of their precious time and pride themselves on their master troll abilities. The saddest part about the whole thing is that most likely their life will amount to nothing more than endless evenings home alone, in front of a computer, trying to bring down things and people's lives just so they can feel a bit better about their own.

But, once again, that's the state of the internet. Posts like these would've been much less back when the internet wasn't so obsessed with how 'cool' trolling is.

 

I personally do not care about other people's opinions for the things that I enjoy. When they are making sense and not just endlessly hating and repeating memes to prove a non-existent point, I take them into consideration and I judge for myself whether those arguments are things that annoy me too or if I just don't give a damn about it.

 

You shouldn't either.

SWTOR doesn't deserve so much hate, that's true, but people are like that. Yesterday it was WoW, today is Swtor and tomorrow will be GW2 or ESO. It's funny if you think about it. All these people in their infinite wisdom, not being able to comprehend that some people genuinely enjoy some of the things they don't. Laugh at their ignorance and sad lives and move on

I have a realistic understanding of the internet and its state of endless trolling. I also didn't feel like actually addressing the trolls on their playground. I wrote this more for myself then for them. Once I realized how long it would be I thought I would share it.

People who have nothing better to do with their lives are sad and pathetic and strongly support the argument that misery loves company. So they belittle whatever they do not deem worthy of their precious time and pride themselves on their master troll abilities. The saddest part about the whole thing is that most likely their life will amount to nothing more than endless evenings home alone, in front of a computer, trying to bring down things and people's lives just so they can feel a bit better about their own.

Not sure why, but this struck me as very ironic. It's one thing to bemoan the flood of haters, and it's one thing to say SWTOR deserves better - but it's another thing altogether to paint all "haters" with a broad, dismissive, and deliberately insulting brush. In doing so, you're basically engaging in exactly what you criticize.

I decided some time ago that SWTOR just isn't my game (though I pop my head in from time to time when I want to play with neon glowsticks). I've ragged on the game more than once, here and elsewhere. Is it "pathetic" to do so? Eh, maybe - but it stems from 1) disappointment in the game's design and direction, and 2) the realization that, at this point, it's just not gonna change.

Believe me, I'd love to tell you why I "hate" SWTOR, but for some reason I don't think it'll be well received...

I've ragged on the game more than once, here and elsewhere. Is it "pathetic" to do so? Eh, maybe - but it stems from 1) disappointment in the game's design and direction, and 2) the realization that, at this point, it's just not gonna change.

and when is 3) not playing the game you don't enjoy and investing your time into something you actually find entertaining going to come?

I don't know why it struck you as ironic. I don't see the irony. I do not consider them pathetic and sad because they don't like/play/say good things about the game. I do so because there is no point in what they're doing other than to piss people off and because they think that everything in life is their way or the highway.

I'm not saying people shouldn't criticize the game. Of course they should, it's a product and like any other product criticism is supposed to help it get better.

However, I fail to see how the comments in the photos posted above provide any kind of constructive criticism that stems from a genuine interest in the game's improvement. Can you explain to me where you see that above?

My point is very simple: (just so I'm clear 'you' = anyone; this is not personal)

This is a game. A game is supposed to entertain you - that's all it can do. If it fails at that, there is no point in either staying in the game hoping it will do a 180° and go the way you want it or trying to make people who enjoy it, enjoy it less. I can understand the frustration of having your expectations crushed but there is only so much time you can be justified for being mad at it; it's not a job, it's not RL, it's a collection of pixels that you can leave at any time without your life being affected at all. There are, thankfully, hundreds of other games to choose from and one of them will be closer to the expectations you had from SWTOR.

Now, you can consider my attitude pathetic and sad, and it's your right to do so, but I stand by what I said - I think that people who spend their days commenting on things they don't enjoy, trying to spoil other people's fun without so much as giving a reason as to why they are beating 'a dead horse', are pathetic and sad.

Not sure why, but this struck me as very ironic. It's one thing to bemoan the flood of haters, and it's one thing to say SWTOR deserves better - but it's another thing altogether to paint all "haters" with a broad, dismissive, and deliberately insulting brush. In doing so, you're basically engaging in exactly what you criticize.

 

I decided some time ago that SWTOR just isn't my game (though I pop my head in from time to time when I want to play with neon glowsticks). I've ragged on the game more than once, here and elsewhere. Is it "pathetic" to do so? Eh, maybe - but it stems from 1) disappointment in the game's design and direction, and 2) the realization that, at this point, it's just not gonna change.

 

Believe me, I'd love to tell you why I "hate" SWTOR, but for some reason I don't think it'll be well received...

I agree with your first paragraph. A lot actually. I'm also glad to see that you understand that some games just aren't for some people. It happens. I just don't believe that the posts people create, both pro swtor and against, should be doing so. I remember there was a Star Ocean game on Xbox 360 I bought, and I absolutely hated it. I hated everything about it. I didn't run to the forums to bash it, or yell at people who did like it. And I didn't need anyone to tell me why they liked it. I was sure that it was for an audience that I wasn't included in. So, even though I had originally liked the idea behind the game and wanted to play as many games in the RPG category as I could, I knew it just wasn't my cup of tea and moved on to another game that I did end up liking....liking all too much in Mass Effect.

I'll never understand why people feel the need to hate a game when it's optional to play. I can understand hating a job, since really you have to keep that job until you find something else which is a task in itself. For optional things, it just doesn't make sense to me for people to stick around when it's not something they enjoy. So I don't think it's pathetic, or whatever. I simply think it's a waste of time, and possibly a little stupid.

I do like the fact that you check in from time to time. I can appreciate that. I hope that during one of your pop ins you find something that brings you back in to the fold of playing and enjoying. I love this game, it's exactly what I was hoping for in an MMO. I know I'm probably one of the few that thinks this game hit my expectations. Overall, I just want to play with people who want to play and have fun as well. That's all.

and when is 3) not playing the game you don't enjoy and investing your time into something you actually find entertaining going to come?

Who said I didn't find it entertaining? It's a fine little break from other games - I like the graphics and all - but it doesn't take long before I get bored again, or get annoyed by what I feel are unnecessary design choices.

I don't know why it struck you as ironic. I don't see the irony. I do not consider them pathetic and sad because they don't like/play/say good things about the game. I do so because there is no point in what they're doing other than to piss people off and because they think that everything in life is their way or the highway.

You didn't stop there, though, did you? You went on to cast aspersions on their out-of-game lives, casting them as cartoonish rejects from mainstream humanity. That's what I find ironic - the baseless characterization of people who, in your view, make baseless characterizations about the game.

Who said I didn't find it entertaining? It's a fine little break from other games - I like the graphics and all - but it doesn't take long before I get bored again, or get annoyed by what I feel are unnecessary design choices.

See that's what I don't get: if you are enjoying the game (not saying you have to enjoy it 24/7, all year long), why would you bash it? How does that make sense?

(Notice I didn't say criticize, I'm specifically talking about bashing)

You didn't stop there, though, did you? You went on to cast aspersions on their out-of-game lives, casting them as cartoonish rejects from mainstream humanity. That's what I find ironic - the baseless characterization of people who, in your view, make baseless characterizations about the game.

ah, that.

Yes, my baseless and cartoonish characterization of those people remains as stated. And, just to be clear, this goes for ALL those people bashing a person or a thing they don't personally enjoy, without giving any reason why or providing constructive criticism, from the comfort of their own home and security of their anonymity. Whether we're talking about Star Wars or Queen or...Justin Bieber, I just don't see the point in trying to bring down something that you don't enjoy and therefore doesn't concern you.

If someone doesn't enjoy something that is entirely optional and for entertainment purposes, yet he chooses to constantly belittle it and the people that do enjoy it, then that's what I call a pathetic and sad individual.

I like to think of myself as an open-minded person whose opinions are shaped by what he sees, experiences and learns. But unless someone proves to me that there are other reasons why anyone would post childish memes or plain out hate messages to belittle something that doesn't concern him (anymore) - since he doesn't enjoy it and considering it's completely optional, I will continue to find that attitude pathetic and sad.

See that's what I don't get: if you are enjoying the game (not saying you have to enjoy it 24/7, all year long), why would you bash it? How does that make sense?

(Notice I didn't say criticize, I'm specifically talking about bashing)

Where do you draw the line, though? For instance, I've warned people off of this game, usually on the basis that if they're looking for an alternative to WoW style gameplay, this ain't it. Is that criticism, or bashing? Sure, the "this game sux" posts are pretty cut and dry, but the general tolerance level IMO isn't very high.

Yes, my baseless and cartoonish characterization of those people remains as stated. And, just to be clear, this goes for ALL those people bashing a person or a thing they don't personally enjoy, without giving any reason why or providing constructive criticism, from the comfort of their own home and security of their anonymity.

Does it also go for the, ahem, devotees of the game who think Bioware can do no wrong, and who jump all over anything that in the least way smacks of criticism of the game? I dunno about you, but I find those people rather pathetic and sad - and somewhat blindsighted to the possibilities of this game (and others). However, I'd hesitate to characterize them as "forever aloners" trying desperately to find meaning in their lives through slavish support.

Where do you draw the line, though? For instance, I've warned people off of this game, usually on the basis that if they're looking for an alternative to WoW style gameplay, this ain't it. Is that criticism, or bashing? Sure, the "this game sux" posts are pretty cut and dry, but the general tolerance level IMO isn't very high.

I think you misunderstood me. I never said or even implied that your opinion, that you will share with reasons to back it up (like what you mentioned about SWTOR not being an alternative to WoW's playstyle) is bashing. That's where I personally draw the line. If you go on youtube, commenting on videos where other people are trying to enjoy the game's PVP or trying to learn the tactics for a fight or even start saying things like "this game sucks", "this game's dead" and when asked "why?" your reasoning is "just because" on the game's general chat, then yes that's bashing.

Doesn't mean you (again you = anyone) don't have the right to do so. I still have the right to consider that pathetic. And frankly, a bit stupid.

Does it also go for the, ahem, devotees of the game who think Bioware can do no wrong, and who jump all over anything that in the least way smacks of criticism of the game? I dunno about you, but I find those people rather pathetic and sad - and somewhat blindsighted to the possibilities of this game (and others). However, I'd hesitate to characterize them as "forever aloners" trying desperately to find meaning in their lives through slavish support.

Definitely. However, devotees of the game are probably not going to comment on how great the game is on youtube. I have seen questions, arguments but not "WOW THIS GAME ROCKS" - at least not since before its release. I guess that's probably because it didn't live up to the larger-than-life expectations people had of it (people were acting like SWTOR would be the second coming of Jesus...) and because it became "cool" to jump on the bash-wagon. But I digress.

Yes, I find sad and pathetic both the people that hate the game and bash it everywhere they find just because they can and those who think that the developers can do no wrong. And to me that shows a total lack of real life stuff, which makes them focus on a game (either bashing or worshiping it), which is why I find them sad and pathetic.

However, when it comes to people who like the game and still play it (not unlike myself) you have to take into account the fact that although we realize there are issues - some major, some minor - we like it and enjoy it anyway. I would like my sorcerer to be able to PVP without a hybrid spec. I'd also like more content and dynamic events. I'd like to see more convenience stuff and more bug fixes.

But I still like it for what it is and I don't expect it to turn into something else because I'd like it to be different. Someone else in another post said something that I honestly believe. He said "People say they want something different than WoW, but then again they don't. The minute something is not exactly like it is there, they start comparing it and finding faults everywhere. They essentially do not want a different game. They want the same game with a different setting." The same could be said about GW2, Rift, Terra, TSW etc.

I don't care how those games do it, I enjoy the game and accept it as it is - with its faults and issues. I will leave when I get bored but I have no illusions that I know better what the game needs and it so happens that what it needs is what I want

Anyway, I think I'm taking the topic somewhere completely different than where the OP wanted it to go and for that I'm sorry OP. It's just that I keep hearing about those "devotees" and "biodrones" yet it never crosses people's minds that it might not be that they turn a blind eye on the game's faults, but enjoy it as it is. It seems like such a weird concept that someone else might be enjoying something someone else isn't, right?

And being vocal about something you enjoy, makes more sense to me than just hating something you are not forced to endure.

Why people are not happy about SWTOR?

Its a price for own fame for Bioware. People are expecting something in line with Baldurs Gate II, Jade Empire, Mass Effect 2 or Dragon Age Orgins. And SWTOR is just a totally different beast, when it hits you, its shocking.

For me SWTOR is too much WoW in ExU SW. I like ExU SW but i dont like WoW, if i liked WoW, i would plaied it!

HOwever i still kinda enjoy the game (SWTOR), i plan to do all 8 storyilines and have great time. However as soon as i reach 8x50 there will be uninstall and never look back.

The only sin of SWTOR is that its another generic MMO, nothing bad with that, just not all folks enjoy the genre. Happens, no hard feelings. It gets some points for SW mark.

As for reason why not be happy with SWTOR as a game:

- MMO gameplay, which often means just tapping various keys on keyboard from 1 to + (aka rotacion) with good enough key binding you can even just roll your face over for maximum effect. Hardly any ability have condicional effect. Most abilities look same they just vary with DMG value, cld and activacion/channel time.

- NO immersion. If i play sniper it totally dont feel like im shoting something.

If i play sith warrior its not like facing.

Maybe if playing sniper was more like ME, and Jugernaut more like Chilvary it would felt better but its not, and never be. As i said SWTOR is just another generic MMO.

- Storylines without choices. You cant roleplay if you cant make choices, and if there is no real consequences of it.

- Cripped dialogues.

- Cripped companions. No Dialogues, no side missions, just sam short liners if you fed them with enought gifts. And generally they are poor written.

An open letter to Bioware (not EA!)

I am writing to let you know that the savage vocal critics of Biowares recent productions do not represent the core base of Bioware fans in the world. I had my own criticisms of some of the game content of recent Bioware creations but, when the dust settles and I pause to look around at the other drivell on offer from game producers, I realise that Bioware games are still the best quality game entertainment by far. The self-appointed assassins in the fan base are like spoiled brats who have too soon forgotten how Bioware lifted the gaming industry out of the realms of mediocre entertainment and into the realm of dynamic, quality creativity. Bioware (and some other contributers) have created a new art form. Most of the Bioware creations are more involving and submersive than films and certainly better value than any other form of entertainment. I congratulate and thank you and all the Bioware team, past and present, for the magnificent projects you have delivered to the gaming world. Unfortunately, many who have jumped on the Bioware band wagon are pretenders who are stil being weened off "Halo" and "Command and Conquer." They are ungrateful oinks who no longer recognise quality but are more intent on becoming little judges and advisors to real artists. I urge you to abandon this new policy of compromise, and allow Bioware the creative freedom it once enjoyed, unshacked by the whims of an untalented minority. Shakespeare would not consult his readers before writing his next classic play!

Please, for the sake of art and creativity, let Bioware, not the so-called fans, create the games. I do not speak for myself alone but also for many friends, family and aquaintences, all Bioware users.

I am Biowares loyal follower.

Regards,

Steve Brown

England

ps "EA" have not been good for Bioware but, I think you probably already know that don't you!

Definitely. However, devotees of the game are probably not going to comment on how great the game is on youtube.

Maybe not, but some get hot under the collar real quick even at reasonable criticisms. It only helps to fuel the fire...

Yes, I find sad and pathetic both the people that hate the game and bash it everywhere they find just because they can and those who think that the developers can do no wrong. And to me that shows a total lack of real life stuff, which makes them focus on a game (either bashing or worshiping it), which is why I find them sad and pathetic.

I think when you and I look at the quotes the OP posted, we see different things. Granted, context is everything, and it's tricky to interpret those posts without it. At face value, though, I get the sense that a few of them (possibly all of 'em) were made by people who may once have been enthusiastic about the game, gave it a fair shot, and walked away disappointed. I don't find it pathetic to vent disappointment and frustration - it may not be smart, but, AFAIC, it's human nature. As for the lack of constructive criticism, well, what's the point if you're convinced it won't do any good?

You see no-life whiners desperately seeking validation - I see people (like myself) who wanted to like the game to stay with it long-term, but couldn't, and are ticked off.

There's another dimension that I've been hesitant to bring in, but this is as good a time as any. SWTOR, by its very existence, is blocking the production of any other legitimate Star Wars themed MMO. This is all we're gonna get. Naturally I don't expect SWTOR to just go away, nor do I begrudge the people who enjoy it. However, those of us who really want a Star Wars MMO, but who just aren't getting the SW vibe from this game - well, we're screwed. In a sense, a part of that "hate" that you're seeing is the frustration of consumers under a monopoly. Most of the "haters" won't realize it, nevermind say it, but that's part of the underlying psychology. They (we?) don't like what's being offered, but they know there will never be an alternative - the choice is to shut up like good little drones, or lash out when given the chance.

Again, I don't see it as "pathetic" (except in terms of the overall situation), but human nature. It's the mutterings of those who have been let down, and who are convinced things won't get any better.

Again, I don't see it as "pathetic" (except in terms of the overall situation), but human nature. It's the mutterings of those who have been let down, and who are convinced things won't get any better.

I think it's time we agree to disagree on this one then.

Because at this point I think both of us have made it pretty clear what we consider constructive criticism aimed at improving the game and what not.

My honest opinion is that whining being "human nature" is not something we should be proud of and/or encourage. Just because something is in our nature doesn't mean it's the right (or logical, in this case) thing to do. I, for one, don't like rationalizing irrational behavior by saying it's "human nature". And that goes for a lot of things, some of which are much more important than a simple game. Isn't it human nature to be envious? To let your emotions get the best of you, making you do things that ultimately lead to you losing your humanity? I think it's really dangerous to just call something "human nature" and accept it as that, especially when that something stems from feelings of anger and hate. But I'm pretty sure your opinion differs.

I think it's time we agree to disagree on this one then.

Probably. Won't stop me from talking, though.

Because at this point I think both of us have made it pretty clear what we consider constructive criticism aimed at improving the game and what not.

What is and isn't constructive criticism is tangential to my point.

My honest opinion is that whining being "human nature" is not something we should be proud of and/or encourage. Just because something is in our nature doesn't mean it's the right (or logical, in this case) thing to do. I, for one, don't like rationalizing irrational behavior by saying it's "human nature".

Then you're missing my point, I think, though we'd probably still disagree. I'm not rationalizing the behavior - in fact, I said such behavior isn't very smart. Rather, I'm objecting to your personal characterization (and thereby demonization) of people who, in my mind, have a right to be ticked off.

The OP asked a specific question, namely, "What drives people to spend energy attacking something they don’t care about?" I'm giving a possible answer. Some of the people in question do care, but know that their constructive comments will fall on deaf ears - but feel the need to comment anyway. Like I said, not smart, but there it is.

Whle the expression of their frustration may not be productive, that's not sufficient reason to dismiss them as lonely, no-life putzes. That's what I take issue with more than anything else. Their comments do carry a message, even if it isn't "constructive" in the usual sense of the word, and the people behind that message are likely as productive and normal as anyone who plays MMOs.

Some of the people in question do care, but know that their constructive comments will fall on deaf ears - but feel the need to comment anyway.

In those situations it is time to pack your bags and move on. Continuous commenting to people who you feel will not hear you out, is a sign of insanity.

Whle the expression of their frustration may not be productive, that's not sufficient reason to dismiss them as lonely, no-life putzes. That's what I take issue with more than anything else. Their comments do carry a message, even if it isn't "constructive" in the usual sense of the word, and the people behind that message are likely as productive and normal as anyone who plays MMOs.

The message of an unproductive comment is one of attention seeking. Comments like "this game sucks" helps nobody (unless the topic is, asking for opinions about your enjoyment of the game). It in no way helps developers know how to fix the problem or even understand what the problem is. Thus it is reason enough to dismiss them all as pathetic attention seeking nobodies.

Then you're missing my point, I think, though we'd probably still disagree. I'm not rationalizing the behavior - in fact, I said such behavior isn't very smart. Rather, I'm objecting to your personal characterization (and thereby demonization) of people who, in my mind, have a right to be ticked off.

 

The OP asked a specific question, namely, "What drives people to spend energy attacking something they don’t care about?" I'm giving a possible answer. Some of the people in question do care, but know that their constructive comments will fall on deaf ears - but feel the need to comment anyway. Like I said, not smart, but there it is.

And that is exactly where our opinions differ.

You find that behavior "not smart" and I find it pathetic and sad.

We agree that people have the right to be ticked off by anything they want and voice their opinions, but we disagree on the idea you seem to support that mindless bashing of whatever ticks them off and of the people that do enjoy it is acceptable.

It's not constructive criticism, it's not just "not smart" and I think you are falsely assuming that the majority of those people's reactions come from a good place, trying to help it get better or from the disappointment of not living up to their expectations. I don't. I honestly think a big portion of those bashing it the way we are talking about, are people who have never played the game and are just willing to support anything considered "kewl" and bash anything considered ripe for bashing. The same people who'd bash a movie or a song by repeating the grotesque memes they are ever so fond of.

If we were talking about a new law, people would have every right in the world to be angry if they disagreed - it's something that affects everyone and it's not optional. A game is optional. And, as I've mentioned before, those that have indeed played and left it, disappointed that it didn't turn out as they had imagined, have the right to be angry to some extent. However, bashing it and the people that still like it without so much as giving a reason for all this hate simply does not make sense.

Whle the expression of their frustration may not be productive, that's not sufficient reason to dismiss them as lonely, no-life putzes. That's what I take issue with more than anything else. Their comments do carry a message, even if it isn't "constructive" in the usual sense of the word, and the people behind that message are likely as productive and normal as anyone who plays MMOs.

The only messages those specific comments carry are:

a) that they can't form a complete sentence that's not a copy-paste of a meme

b) that people are always willing to hate something just because it's cool to do so

and c) that entitlement and over-the-top expectations have destroyed what could have been a pleasant -yet always optional - experience.

As for your last sentence, I think you misunderstood the "not having anything better to do in their life" part of my first post.

So just to be clear, I don't care if the person doing it is a 12 year old kid obsessed with Youtube and MMOs, a 26 year old professional gamer or a 40 year old man who has a job and supports a family. When you post something non-substantial and non-constructive about some form of entertainment that you don't enjoy, that to me is pathetic and sad.

When someone's favorite pastime is raining on other people's parades, just for ***** and giggles, for something that for one reason or another has no effect on him/her, no matter how many arguments you present, in my mind remains pathetic.

By the way, this is one of those rare times on the internet where you realize you are talking to a person who has some points that make sense and presents them well, which is why I don't understand why you would make excuses for anyone who is not actually voicing his disappointment in a rational way, but instead resorts to "lol dead game is dead" tantrums.

And no, because "it falls on deaf ears" is not a reason - whenever someone feels a company that provides a service or a product related to entertainment does not satisfy his needs, he provides suggestions and if things don't improve he/she simply uses another product/service from the plethora of similar products/services available. The idea that people got tired of "I think what this game needs is X" and therefore the next logical step is "I HATE YOU DIE NOW" is a pretty irrational one.

In those situations it is time to pack your bags and move on. Continuous commenting to people who you feel will not hear you out, is a sign of insanity.

I'd agree on the first part, but how do you know that the commenting is continuous? Is it the same people saying the same thing over and over? Or are the comments just parting shots from people who have reached their limit?

The message of an unproductive comment is one of attention seeking.

It's easy to see it that way - but each of those quotes (especially the first three) could also represent someone who is following the development of the game, waiting for a reason to get back in. That's the "message" I'm referring to.

And let's face it, anything anyone posts on the internet can be construed as "attention seeking" if you squint enough...

Comments like "this game sucks" helps nobody (unless the topic is, asking for opinions about your enjoyment of the game). It in no way helps developers know how to fix the problem or even understand what the problem is. Thus it is reason enough to dismiss them all as pathetic attention seeking nobodies.

The last three messages may fall under the "this game sucks" category, but certainly the first three list specific objections to the developmental direction of the game. They are feedback, and even if they're a bit vitriolic, they are still constructive in the sense of giving the developers specific reasons as to why they're not playing. AFAIC, they're more constructive than my criticism earlier in this thread, which was apparently deemed ok.

So why are they being painted with the same broad brush as the "lol SWTOR sux" posts?

By the way, this is one of those rare times on the internet where you realize you are talking to a person who has some points that make sense and presents them well, which is why I don't understand why you would make excuses for anyone who is not actually voicing his disappointment in a rational way, but instead resorts to "lol dead game is dead" tantrums.

I don't think I"m making excuses for anyone. Sorry if it came across that way. Rather, I'm suggesting that you and the OP are on the edge of throwing the baby out with the bathwater by off-handedly dismissing posts that you've deemed "pathetic and sad," and I'm objecting to the nearly automatic characterization of such posters as rejects in real life when you clearly have no basis for doing so.

I'm not defending them; I'm attacking you. Or rather, your off-handed demonization of people who say things you don't like, in a way you don't like.

Seriously, you guys sound like picked-on kids who console themselves by saying that "bullies" are just jealous or have "other issues" at home or something.

I don't think I"m making excuses for anyone. Sorry if it came across that way. Rather, I'm suggesting that you and the OP are on the edge of throwing the baby out with the bathwater by off-handedly dismissing posts that you've deemed "pathetic and sad," and I'm objecting to the nearly automatic characterization of such posters as rejects in real life when you clearly have no basis for doing so.

 

I'm not defending them; I'm attacking you. Or rather, your off-handed demonization of people who say things you don't like, in a way you don't like.

 

Seriously, you guys sound like picked-on kids who console themselves by saying that "bullies" are just jealous or have "other issues" at home or something.

I have never been bullied nor would I ever let anyone bully me, trust me on that, but your last sentence is absolutely ridiculous. You really think people who bully others are 100% emotionally and mentally healthy? That nothing's wrong at home? Or is it, maybe, the other person's fault for...I don't know... existing in the same planet and thus provoking them? I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but most bullies do face issues at home "or something". Don't take my word for it, look it up. Although, to be honest, I hardly think we trust the same sources.

Now, I don't know if we are starting to sound like the "picked-on kids", but you are definitely starting to sound like the people who appear on a certain "news" network and talk about the "legitimacy" of certain issues. In which case, everything you've said so far makes sense in a way.

Frankly, I'm starting to feel like I'm stuck in an endless loop with this discussion especially now, having read your opinion on what a bully is so this is the last post for me because a) I'm tired of talking about it and b) our opinions on what is constructive are completely different.

Not only are you making excuses for them, you are probably not even realizing that I have no problem with people voicing their issues but I don't consider "You sux" an argument that holds water.

Off the top of my head some of the things you've said so far: they feel let down, they feel frustrated, they feel their suggestions fall on deaf ears, they believe a better game would be made if SWTOR went the way of the dodo which would be better and closer to what they want (and btw, fat chance of that last part actually happening).

But yeah...not really making excuses...

Also, I love how I'm the one demonizing and characterizing people but "you sux" and "dead game is dead" are legitimate arguments made out of the goodness of people's hearts and with a genuine interest in the well-being of the game and how it's completely rational to be "mad" at a game. And I also love how people who spend their time paying and playing a game they don't enjoy or making posts about it being dead in blogs or youtube videos where people are enjoying it are not sad.

To sum up, you of course have the right to consider whining, "constructive criticism" or justified resentment. You also have the right to think I'm wrong and that people who endlessly whine about a game are right.

And I have the right to consider people who spend their days commenting on posts about a game they don't like with troll-like comments, sad and pathetic.

What it all comes down to is this:

You like the game -> you play the game

You don't like the game -> you suggest things and if you see no improvements in what you consider key factors to your satisfaction, you leave the game.

But between me and someone who is just mindlessly bashing the game on a blog post, I'm the one enjoying it and he's the one trying to bring down others.

Guess who's having more fun and most importantly, whose fun does not stem from hate

See you around.

I have read many of articles spanning from IGN, PC Gamer, Massively and Kotaku.

Simply because I cannot remember a game getting this much hate and trolling in a long time, if ever.

From all the information I have read, most of the hate seems to stem from Guild Wars 2 fanboys and Guild Wars 2 trolls.

Have talked to quite a few players in game, and they pretty much agree with my opinion. Usually they say "People on Guild Wars 2, really say how horrible this game is and hate on it. When it went free to play, I decided to try it out and it's honestly very good."

When people say this game plays like WOW, mechanic wise - that is a valid point and complaint. Or when they bash the quest system being like the same old thing, other than with voice acting. Again valid point. Same with the disappointment of on rails space.

I also feel like this game was released too early and if it was released how it is now, would have done better.

The fact that this game has a main story, that makes you feel like you "beat" the game, also makes people think this isn't more to do.

However at the time when it came out, there was no group finder, pvp wasn't as good, there wasn't enough content, no legacy system or free to play model.

So this game didn't struggle because it was bad, it just was missing a few key pieces that turned people off.

The fact I love the lore and have no problems with the wow mechanics, makes those complaints, not something that bother me personally.

The part that bothers me is the fanboys of GW2 for years they proclaimed how it was supposed to change MMO's, and do something completely different.

Yet all they did was create a game with no classes, bad dungeons, below average lore, a weird audio book way of telling a story and no end game content.

I think anyone other than some critics, and people who blindly love arena net and Guild Wars 2 can honestly come to the conclusion the game itself was a disappointment - at the very least compared to the hype.

I really do not understand the people who say this game has "no end game content" when Guild Wars 2, has none at all. This game has much more, I understand it's pretty much the same as WOW endgame give or take, but there is plenty to do.

Star Wars TOR, may get hate slung at it, including titles like TORRRAINWRECK and TORTANIC but in truth, it offers a refined experience to what's already out there.

Guild Wars 2 gets a lot of love for being a MMO "with people who have a life" but that is just a fancy way of saying it lacks any depth whatsoever.

I never had my account hacked in all my years of WOW, EVE, TOR. My first week with GW2, my account was hacked and the security was a joke at best. It's better now of course, but I have never seen so many account issues or gold spam in all my life.

The press hasn't helped this game at all, I get this game was given good reviews. However in the long run all they have done is feed the fire, and the Guild Wars 2 fan boys.

At least I have been seeing more and more people complaining about Guild Wars 2, the hate with this game seems to be slightly less.

I hope Bioware knows this expansion should be treated as the game's launch, that it will bring it new players and the people bored with other games on the market.

I understand the free to play system is horrible, complicated compare to other games and sucks for the most part.

However, they have a real chance to right the ship and regain some of the market lost to the idiotic hate, I swear people hate on this game so much it's almost like they get PAID.

Great post, op.

I understand, there is always a game hyped up to "change gaming" or "change a genre" but the fanboys of Guild Wars 2, were the most sickening I have ever personally experienced.

I don't think I"m making excuses for anyone. Sorry if it came across that way. Rather, I'm suggesting that you and the OP are on the edge of throwing the baby out with the bathwater by off-handedly dismissing posts that you've deemed "pathetic and sad," and I'm objecting to the nearly automatic characterization of such posters as rejects in real life when you clearly have no basis for doing so.

 

I'm not defending them; I'm attacking you. Or rather, your off-handed demonization of people who say things you don't like, in a way you don't like.

 

Seriously, you guys sound like picked-on kids who console themselves by saying that "bullies" are just jealous or have "other issues" at home or something.

Regardless what he says, claims to like, or not like.

He is the typical Guild Wars 2 fanboy and or troll.

I fully expect him to respond with "LOL I don't even like GW2.", don't be fooled. He is a living; breathing example of my point.

I don't think I"m making excuses for anyone. Sorry if it came across that way. Rather, I'm suggesting that you and the OP are on the edge of throwing the baby out with the bathwater by off-handedly dismissing posts that you've deemed "pathetic and sad," and I'm objecting to the nearly automatic characterization of such posters as rejects in real life when you clearly have no basis for doing so.

 

I'm not defending them; I'm attacking you. Or rather, your off-handed demonization of people who say things you don't like, in a way you don't like.

 

Seriously, you guys sound like picked-on kids who console themselves by saying that "bullies" are just jealous or have "other issues" at home or something.

As the author of the OP, let me ask this. Is it your stance that a person can say what they want with out ridicule? If so you are skirting the edge of limiting free expression. It may be wrong to assume all people with opposing view points as "pathetic and sad" but that's clearly not my point. Your building a straw man to argue against. I am addressing the people who have nothing better to do than troll. My point is to conserve pathetic trolling of one thing, for something more positive in another, and we can all be happy.