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Guarding the Healers


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Really? My god if a tank can't manage more than one mob they must be pretty lame.

 

Sorry but it's true. Even if you can't CC there is more than enough abilities across all of the classes in this game to ensure the tank can maintain aggro.

 

Guard on DPS, ALWAYS

 

As for damage, someone has to take it. If you guard the healer the DPS you just took it off will now get that extra 5% (woooooh big damage!)

 

I play Black Hole geared marauder as my main and do FPs on a regular basis with group finder which usually pops me into a group with a melee tank around rakata gear and a another ranged dps. I still steal a lot of aggro from the tanks because of my rather high end gear and big dps. I don't say it's completely wrong to guard the healer but if the healer is already decently geared(columi level or around that) then I would like to get the guard because that makes the run so much more easy as I don't have to use my defensive CDs so much and tune down my DPS but I can only concentrate on the thing I do best, the awesome dpsing. It's so much more easy for me and the healer in the bosses that have multiple enemies(Boarding Party, Kaon...) when I have the guard so the healer does not need to heal me so much even though I tend to steal the aggro every now and then even with the guard, just because my dps is so high.

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In addition to my PT tank, I also play as a marauder (Annihilation). The only people who pull aggro off my tank are marauders and when I play my marauder I frequently pull aggro off tanks (both pugs and guild mates).

 

Basically, I keep my eye on any maras over 20k health and I am always ready to throw up defensive CDs when I play my marauder. The only time I notice other classes rip aggro from me is when they either throw out taunts or dump aoes over the mob I'm holding (will usually shake one or two guys lose).

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Some of these discussions among higher level players astonish me.

 

I'll tell you something. I started playing this game a couple of weeks ago. I just reached Level 29 yesterday on my Marauder and this is my first post.

 

I know to burn down the easier mobs before taking on the bosses through my leveling missions. How do higher level players get to 50 without knowing this? Amazing.

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I know to burn down the easier mobs before taking on the bosses through my leveling missions. How do higher level players get to 50 without knowing this? Amazing.

 

If you play long enough you will see the most astonishing things, and when you think you've seen it all... you will see something that will prove you wrong. I could spend the entire day listing dumb things people say and do at level 50.

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If you play long enough you will see the most astonishing things, and when you think you've seen it all... you will see something that will prove you wrong. I could spend the entire day listing dumb things people say and do at level 50.

 

Hah. I have wanted to do the Mandalorian Raiders flashpoint but this stuff sort of has me wondering if it's worth it, assuming that people are even dumber at level 25-30.

 

Edit: I realized now that after last night I passed the level range for that flashpoint. Oh well.

Edited by Danqypoo
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The worst part is you'll get to level 50 and the players are just as clueless but because they've reached that level they think they're the shizz lol.

 

The things that really grind on me just now constantly happen:

 

1) Idiots trying to force push/overload shielded droids in 'Collicoid War Game'. Instead of admitting they're wrong they scoff 'nah I can do it' as they look like a *** getting slammed over the edge

 

2) Idiots ignoring your 'watch out for the shockwaves' when fighting guns in cademimu or aforementioned droids only to fly over the edge seconds later. Athiss dino too....

 

3) Those that just won't get out of the damn fire/acid as their health plummets before blaming the healer (Cademimu boss, ATHISS final boss - WORST, Collicoid Final Boss - WORST, matriarch on foundry etc)

 

4) The ones who won't hide from the bosses in MP when they're obvious snipers.

 

5) Not understanding that healers can't heal if you're out of sight or reach. Worst scenarios are the mid boss in MP when the idiots all hide behind crates and keep peeking out and circling and dancing around the blocks and moan that u aren't healing them as u frantically run about trying to get them in view. Heals take a few seconds guys. Another head scratcher is the end boss in directive 7. 2 of the team fight one turret while one idiot goes off to take the other one on himself so u can only heal half the group at one time....

 

6) Idiots who don't listen and when running from Athiss final boss, Xander in cademimu etc keep running out of the main area and the boss resets its health.

 

As you can tell I'm mainly a healer lol grrr

Edited by thomasbaxter
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Really? My god if a tank can't manage more than one mob they must be pretty lame.

 

Sorry but it's true. Even if you can't CC there is more than enough abilities across all of the classes in this game to ensure the tank can maintain aggro.

 

Guard on DPS, ALWAYS

 

As for damage, someone has to take it. If you guard the healer the DPS you just took it off will now get that extra 5% (woooooh big damage!)

 

Really? My god if a dps can't kill a trash mob he pulls before it kills him then that DPS is pretty lame....

 

I play a healer quite a bit lately and I do notice a huge difference aggro wise being guarded and not being guarded... If the DPS is geared so highly that he pulls the trash mob off a tank then he shold be able to quickly kill that trash mob given the gear he has..

 

I have a gunslinger that has all Dread Guard Gear except for the helmet and chest, and I have no issues killing trash mobs fast If I pull them off a tank....

 

The whole argument is rather moot anyways as most DPS will target the trash mobs the Tank's are not even on... So your going to pull aggro regardless if your guarded or not.... Ill say it for the 100th Time, the only time a DPS needs to be guarded is during a BOSS fight.... If the DPS needs to be guarded during trash pulls then he just sucks as a DPS'er

Edited by Monoth
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Hah. I have wanted to do the Mandalorian Raiders flashpoint but this stuff sort of has me wondering if it's worth it, assuming that people are even dumber at level 25-30.

 

Edit: I realized now that after last night I passed the level range for that flashpoint. Oh well.

 

Sometime playing in an inexperienced group will just add to the fun. You get used to the common beginner's mistakes and use the tools you have at your disposal to compensate them.

 

Highly suggesting you do those fps that have no hardmode while you are at the appropriate levels. Mandalorian Raiders was one of my favourite fp before the nerf (yep it was long time ago).

 

All the lowbie fps are still very fun and challenging. I actually have problem now that most people queue them over-level and make the encounters boring.

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Really? My god if a dps can't kill a trash mob he pulls before it kills him then that DPS is pretty lame....

 

I play a healer quite a bit lately and I do notice a huge difference aggro wise being guarded and not being guarded... If the DPS is geared so highly that he pulls the trash mob off a tank then he shold be able to quickly kill that trash mob given the gear he has..

 

I have a gunslinger that has all Dread Guard Gear except for the helmet and chest, and I have no issues killing trash mobs fast If I pull them off a tank....

 

The whole argument is rather moot anyways as most DPS will target the trash mobs the Tank's are not even on... So your going to pull aggro regardless if your guarded or not.... Ill say it for the 100th Time, the only time a DPS needs to be guarded is during a BOSS fight.... If the DPS needs to be guarded during trash pulls then he just sucks as a DPS'er

 

I disagree. Yes, as a full dread guard slinger, if you pull something, you will most likely kill it before it reach you. problem is still the fact you pull it in the first place. As a healer, the more the tank tanks instead of dps. the happier i am. As a DPS, the more the tanks tank instead of me. the happier i am (cos lets face it, i am quite low on the healing prio list when **** hits the fan). As a tank, the more i tank instead of others, the happier i am, since im actually doing my job. While some say that dps pull mainly due to them attacking other targets than the target the tank is tanking, thats their problem. I do that myself, for 2 reasons, either The tank is not doing his job, and **** hit the healer, or i use an aoe. And in regards to aoe. I know that it's dangerous to use em in combat since im giving the tank more to do, but lets face it, its an aoe attack for a reason, if i use it recklessly, its my problem, if i get aggro for using them when im supposed to, its the tanks. You would say a guard helps here? Guess again. If the tanks do the pull as is custom, they will gain initial aggro, if they follow up on that , happy days. If they don't any form of guard wont help. guard or not, **** will still go for the healer, and some dps have the foresight to compensate by attacking the stuff hitting the healer.

same thing with the taunt multiplier, 130% (not sure bout the exact number) that the taunt multiply with help heaps when tanking. but keep in mind, 130% of nothing is still nothing.

 

However, if we take bossfights in consideration then the guard should always go to the one most likely to pull of the tank , and it aint gonna be the healer. There is only 1 time ive ever tanked a boss as a healer. that was when me and the tank messed about and intentionally had me tank it (that fact that the dpser's didnt pull off me is nothing short of tragic, but that is another story). the times i've seen **** tanks lose aggro and not get it back however are quite numerous. There are times where ive seen people wait for ages before engaging a boss and still rip aggro off the tank, and while a good geared dps most likely wont have any issues surviving that if they have a healer who knows what they are doing, fact of the matter is still this: id much prefer to heal the tank over the dps, for the tank take less dmg.

 

For all you tanks out there who complain about dpsers ripping aggro off you. Trust me when i say, you can successfully tank almost any mob, regardless of your current gear level, against any type of dps, regardless of how high it is, if you know what you are doing, ie if you guard the dps that might pull off you, if your gear is bad compared to theirs, weave taunts into your rotation (though that helps for all tanks).

 

In short, read up on how threat in this game works (this can be said to all those who havent) for "having tanked for x years in WoW" really is the WORST argument ever

Edited by sripakdee
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Please stop this nonsense.

 

I play a combat sentinel with BiS gear and I end up tanking 9/10 flashpoints and operations I join via group finder because tanks actively refuse to put their guard on me. I have stopped bothering trying to explain on a daily basis why they should do this and just do my best to "keep aggro" so they realize they are making a mistake.

 

For those who don't know how threat is calculated:

  • An attack has a 1.0x modifier on damage to threat.
  • A heal has a 0.5x modifier on heal to threat.
  • Tanking stance gives a 2.0x modifier on damage to threat.

 

This means a healer has to do 2x more healing than the damage done by a damage dealer (DD) in order to acctualy "pull aggro". If for example a DD is doing 1500DPS, the healer would have to do 3000HPS...

 

Also for those advocating the healer must have a guard because any adds will target him/her, guarding doesn't in any way prevent this from happening When adds spawn their "threat table" is empty and as soon as the healer casts a heal on anybody the threat generated from that heal is split amongs all the enemies currently engaged. Unless the adds are taunted or attacked they will go for the healer, regardless of guard.

 

So, if it makes no sense guarding the healer who is the guard for? Simple, the best damage dealer in the group.

 

Using my previous example of a DD doing 1500DPS, the tank would have to do more than 750DPS in order to "keep aggro" (disregarding "high threat" abilities and taunts).

 

Now ask yourselves what makes more sense:

  • A tank doing less than 750DPS - guard the best damage dealer in the group.
  • A healer doing more than 3000HPS - guard the healer.

 

Amusing fact: I once had a tank tell me to "stop taunting"... on a sentinel... :confused:

 

TL;DR

Learn about how threat is calculated - Tanking: A Primer; stop guarding the healers; guard the best damage dealer in group; AoE taunt adds.

 

Where are you getting these threat generation numbers from? I'm not saying you are wrong I'd just like to know where this formula is coming from.

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Where are you getting these threat generation numbers from? I'm not saying you are wrong I'd just like to know where this formula is coming from.

 

Combat logs. Since they explicitly stat how much threat is generated after each attack, it's pretty easy to suss out.

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Combat logs. Since they explicitly stat how much threat is generated after each attack, it's pretty easy to suss out.

 

Here is what I can tell you when it comes to my healing...

 

When I use a healing trance on someone if it crits all 4 ticks (which it does a lot) thats an 8k heal to the tank. If I follow that up with a deliverance and it crits, thats an additional 6.5-7k heal. Thats about 15k in heals with just those two heals. If I throw down an AoE heal that is potentially another 5-6k healing.

 

So we are talking 21k healing just to the tank. I can do that in about 15 seconds. That means that of all the additional adds around us it will take according to the chart 11k damage by one of the DPS to pull ONE add off me. What if there are three adds in the area or more? Like in the beginning of Maelstrom Prison?

 

With the guard on me it will reduce that threat by 50%. VERY necessary if the tank whats to scoop those adds up with an AoE taunt.

Edited by Brittaany_Banks
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Here is what I can tell you when it comes to my healing...

 

When I use a healing trance on someone if it crits all 4 ticks (which it does a lot) thats an 8k heal to the tank. If I follow that up with a deliverance and it crits, thats an additional 6.5-7k heal. Thats about 15k in heals with just those two heals. If I throw down an AoE heal that is potentially another 5-6k healing.

 

So we are talking 21k healing just to the tank. I can do that in about 15 seconds. That means that of all the additional adds around us it will take according to the chart 11k damage by one of the DPS to pull ONE add off me. What if there are three adds in the area or more? Like in the beginning of Maelstrom Prison?

 

With the guard on me it will reduce that threat by 50%. VERY necessary if the tank whats to scoop those adds up with an AoE taunt.

You're not wrong.

 

But how about the tank save his AOE taunt until right after you've dropped those heavy heals. Suddenly, he's at the top of the threat table + 30%. Plus there are 2 dps, and 11k damage / 15 seconds is only 733 dps. You also have a 4 seconds stun, and a 60 second mez. Good CC will make that fight a lot easier.

 

On trash, in my opinion, it doesn't really matter who you guard. I've been able to successfully tank MP without guarding anyone (was testing) by bring careful with my cooldowns and paying attention to what was happening.

 

I just feel it's a bad thing when some players try to use "guard the healer" as a solution for a mismanaged pull, bad CCs or lack of coordination.

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Here is what I can tell you when it comes to my healing...

 

When I use a healing trance on someone if it crits all 4 ticks (which it does a lot) thats an 8k heal to the tank. If I follow that up with a deliverance and it crits, thats an additional 6.5-7k heal. Thats about 15k in heals with just those two heals. If I throw down an AoE heal that is potentially another 5-6k healing.

 

So we are talking 21k healing just to the tank. I can do that in about 15 seconds. That means that of all the additional adds around us it will take according to the chart 11k damage by one of the DPS to pull ONE add off me. What if there are three adds in the area or more? Like in the beginning of Maelstrom Prison?

 

With the guard on me it will reduce that threat by 50%. VERY necessary if the tank whats to scoop those adds up with an AoE taunt.

 

You're forgetting 2 things.

 

Heal threat reduction talent, brings that down to 8k. Any DPS or tank that can't do 8k threat in 15 seconds is terrible.

 

Heal agro is split amongst all targets in combat. So with 4 targets that is now 2k on each target. Which is 1k DMG for a tank.

 

If you're getting agro from that its literally mobs that no one has sneezed loudly at, and that won't change whether you have guard or not.

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So we are talking 21k healing just to the tank. I can do that in about 15 seconds. That means that of all the additional adds around us it will take according to the chart 11k damage by one of the DPS to pull ONE add off me.

 

Did you not read what I said about healing aggro being diluted across all enemies, not to mention the standard 15% reduced threat that Sages generated via healing (unless you just didn't take that talent, which would be remarkably stupid of you to do)? You're also making the rather strong assumption that every single bit of that healing is going to be required. Overhealing generates no aggro whatsoever. So, unless your tank actually *needed* every single drop of that healing, you didn't generate that much threat.

 

Assuming you threw out 21k actual healing (which means no overhealing) over 15 seconds, you just generated a whole 600 TPS (21k healing * .5 healing threat modifier * .85 Sage healing threat modifier / 15 seconds), and that's assuming you got that lucky chain of crits you talked about, even if it's not really all that likely (even on HT, you're not likely to get a crit off of every tick since Rejuvenate just increases crit chance by 25%; with a 35% base chance to crit, you would have a 12.96% chance of that actually occurring). 600 TPS on a single enemy is a complete joke: any DPS or tank is going to *quickly* plow through that tiny amount you're generating.

 

Now, if were talking about a trash pull, you have to factor in the fact that healing threat is diluted across all enemies you're currently in combat with (which you seem to have ignored since I've said it multiple times). This means that the 600 TPS you're generating is only actually 600 TPS if you're fighting a single target: for 2 targets, it's 300 TPS, and for 3 targets it's 200 TPS. For the first pull of Maelstrom Prison (which is, iirc, 9 targets), you're generating a whopping 66.67 TPS on each target. A DPS or tank is simply going to have to *sneeze* at a target to pull threat off of you, assuming you ever had it in the first place.

 

With the guard on me it will reduce that threat by 50%. VERY necessary if the tank whats to scoop those adds up with an AoE taunt.

 

You obviously don't understand *either* of the mechanisms you're talking about. First off, Guard reduces threat generated by 25%, not 50%. Secondly, if the tank is using their AoE taunt, it doesn't matter *how* much threat you've generated, since Taunts generate the exact amount of threat needed to pull threat from the current target at the moment of usage. If the tank *is* using their AoE taunt to pull off of you, guess what, it's actually *better* if you generate more TPS because the tank will end up generating *more* threat via their Taunt if/when they use it.

 

Either way, it doesn't matter because pretty much anything the tank does will generate enough threat to pull off of you: overhealing doesn't count (so, unless the tank actually just took 21k damage in 15 seconds, you didn't actually generate 21k healing worth of actual healing) and healing threat is both discounted (50% base and further 85% as a Sage) *and* diluted (so you're only ever generating the listed amount *total* across all targets in combat). If a healer *ever* pulls threat, it's not because the healer is amazing: it's because the tank and DPS both ignored a target for an extended period of time and they both deal miserable damage.

 

As an example, assuming my Shadow tank actually *needed* that much healing continuously and I wasn't using any of my self heals (since my healing threat is actually worth more than yours thanks to my tanking stance), if I hit a target with a single Force Breach (my worst threat generator at just ~2k threat per use), it would take you (with your 600 TPS distributed across 9 targets for only 66.67 TPS individually) 39 seconds for you to steal aggro from me (2k threat means 2.6k threat required to pull threat, 2600 / 66.67 = 39). And that's if I hit it once with my weakest threat generator and then proceeded to ignore it completely. That entire trash pack is generally dead within 10 seconds.

 

Seriously, if you actually understood threat, you would realize that healers *never* need Guard: they simply don't generate enough threat in *any* realistic situation to justify it (you can concoct situations that are completely unrealistic and predicated upon multitudinous levels of stupidity on everyone *except* for the healer who is played to absolute perfection). The only situation where I might even *dream* about putting Guard on a healer is on p2 of Terror From Beyond, where all damage against the boss itself is reduced by some monumental quantity (it's either 99% or 90%, something like that) such that the threat generated by attacks is so miniscule that a healer *might* actually steal threat somehow (even then, I don't bother with it on my guild runs and a healer has never stolen threat from me).

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As a vanguard dps I have only 2 ways to drop aggro. One of them includes a sage using rescue and the other one is "The ultimate" aggro drop move. :rolleyes:

 

So if there is only 1 guard available you can bet that I will be insistent on getting it ;)

Edited by Davionix
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Well interesting. I guess I never understood about dividing the threat.

 

Whenever I'd look at a log (sample log I found on Torparse):

http://www.torparse.com/a/38309/2/0/Log

 

It doesn't indicate who threat is applied to. Somehow I figured it was added to each mob's threat table.

 

But if it's divided, then why would anybody think guarding the healer was useful? I already thought it was useless before I realized the point about dividing.

 

Cheeses.

Edited by Khevar
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But if it's divided, then why would anybody think guarding the healer was useful? I already thought it was useless before I realized the point about dividing.

 

Yes... exactly this. Makes no sense except in very unique situations. None of those situations can be found in and heroic, flashpoint, Eternity Vault, Karagga's Palace, or Explosive Conflict.

 

At the moment guarding the healers only makes sense on Terror from Beyond 2nd stage and PvP.

Edited by Qvasar
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I swear to god I love to heal and this **** is just flipping annoying. No healer should have a guard ever (well almost ever). Last night on story mode kp both healers *****ed til they got a guard I tried explaining why they were wrong and don't need a guard. Nobody in the op would agree with me so here I am in full 63 ripping aggro off the boss in every fight. Nobody switched guards and tried to help me. I use my aggro drop as often as I can and am still pulling all the bosses. It was just *********** ridiculous. I shoulda rage quit but I am stupid and just put up with it.

 

It's funny to see karagga walk into the center of his pit though and lay down a bunch of fire cause that is were I am standing and tank already used up his taunt and can't pull back. I bet the healers love me then when we all had to avoid the fire that was all over the f'n place.

Edited by TheMarmalade
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ps. the reason you end up tanking is because u r bad, a good dps will not pull aggro :p control your output, simple as that.

 

Spoken like someone who has NO CLUE how to play this game.

If your Marauder/Sentinel is unguarded, they will pull aggro in no time, even with their aggro dump.

In order to not pull aggro, they will have to sacrifice a TON of dps to maintain a lower threat level.

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Some of these discussions among higher level players astonish me.

 

I'll tell you something. I started playing this game a couple of weeks ago. I just reached Level 29 yesterday on my Marauder and this is my first post.

 

I know to burn down the easier mobs before taking on the bosses through my leveling missions. How do higher level players get to 50 without knowing this? Amazing.

If you play long enough you will see the most astonishing things, and when you think you've seen it all... you will see something that will prove you wrong. I could spend the entire day listing dumb things people say and do at level 50.

 

I believe the issue is that most people now outgear most of the content, with people in Campaign or Dread Guard gear running HM flashpoints tuned for Tionese. So they get used to easy mode runs where you can just jump and throw AOEs into a pack including one gold or more, several silvers and a few trash without too much trouble (thanks to the healer working his *** off though).

 

Once you have taken bad habits here you find people focusing on the gold in a pack while the other mobs with low HP can still cause havoc - basically acting against everything you're taught while leveling. Then you will find the very same people running HMs on their alts in Tionese still rushing in packs without using any CC and wondering why they got crushed.

 

I remember when we were starting HMs months ago with barely a few purple mods from dailies and we had to pay attention how to approach these situations using CC, LOS etc. Try to mark and CC anything today, you will be laughed at for wasting everyone's time.

Edited by demotivator
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This is completely off-topic, but anyway...

 

[OFFTOPIC]

 

I remember when we were starting HMs months ago with barely a few purple mods from dailies and we had to pay attention how to approach these situations using CC, LOS etc. Try to mark and CC anything today, you will be laughed at for wasting everyone's time.

 

Exactly, but there is nothing wrong with the current state of affairs in my opinion. The game is not new, the majority of players are supposed to be very well geared and know the flashpoints and most operations like the back of their hands.

 

Until they retune the content, taking into consideration people the average gear level of the players, you are expected to skip past everything you can, chain pull everything else, AoE as much as possible, spacebar every chat, etc...

 

I ran flashpoints as you describe one year ago. I wouldn't dare taking an alt to a flashpoint with that gear nowadays. I always have at least a complete campaign set waiting for when the alt hits 50, because I don't want to hold anyone back on a flashpoint.

 

A point you could make is "not all players are veterans". Indeed, but to be honest new players are also on easy-mode. They are usually not running a flashpoint (for e.g.) with 3 other undergeared and clueless people like we were one year ago. They are in fact being carried by overgeared and experienced players. They are being given Tionese sets, they can get Black Hole gear really fast, they have high-end gear widely available on GTN, there are thousands of tutorials and videos guides for every piece of game content, there are answers to almost every question on Google... So yes, when I join something on LFG I expect players to show up at least in Tionese, to know the tactics, to skip trash, etc... Maybe I am expecting too much...

 

But I'm not the only one: Please learn how to play the game before you que for flashpoints.

 

[/OFFTOPIC]

 

All this means mistakes that were tolerated, or even unoticed, one year ago are inexcusable now. One of them is guarding the healer "just because"...

Edited by Qvasar
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