I just hate the Mandalorian Raiders fp when you're fighting the boss with the 2 hounds. I'm healing everyone for a short while and then spend ages running from the hounds as neither the tank nor DPS are doing anything to them. Happens every time and I'm basically dead by the time anyone notices I've been running laps. Then if a DPS goes down the healer gets it in the neck.

I'm healing everyone for a short while and then spend ages running from the hounds as neither the tank nor DPS are doing anything to them.

 

I'm pretty sure the dogs in the fight have an "ignore threat" mechanic (iirc, the Mando boss puts a debuff on someone and the dogs attack that person exclusively).

Tank is there to keep the healer alive, not the DPS, healer lives... group lives.

 

DPS is there to KILL everything. Healer is there to make you live.

 

DPS, if you make it so the tank can't keep the healer alive to keep you alive - you are failing. Tank is there to babysit only one person and it isn't you.

I'm pretty sure the dogs in the fight have an "ignore threat" mechanic (iirc, the Mando boss puts a debuff on someone and the dogs attack that person exclusively).

 

Interesting. Didn't know that. Begs the question though why nobody kills them quickly.

Interesting. Didn't know that. Begs the question though why nobody kills them quickly.

 

Because it's a level 25 FP and most people have no clue how to play properly at that point, especially when the dogs should be kept away from the boss who the tank should be beating on (the boss has an aura that increases the dog's damage so they need to be separated). People tend to be idiots, especially when it's lol-leveling content. If a strategy isn't readily and *obviously* apparent, most people couldn't be bothered to figure it out or even to follow it if it's spelled out to them.

90% of the time on a boss with adds it´s kill the adds first. If you can cc the add(s) then you might kill the boss first but the general rule of thumb, allways kill adds first, if new adds apear when spanking boss, shift to adds and nuke them down. If in doubt just ask.

 

Same thing in trash packs. 90% of the time the "adds" die first and the yellow last. Sometimes there are aoe mobs or healer mobs or some other nastyness. If in doubt just ask. A good dps/tank/heal should know killorder. A healer might be excused, but realy the dps and tank should know. If they dont know make sure you tell the group from start of the FP that : " I´m new to this FP, tell me if there´s things i need to know "

cc strongest

 

healers first

 

monkeys next then toughest ones.

Interesting. Didn't know that. Begs the question though why nobody kills them quickly.

 

Because they're idiots?

 

When I tank the boss with the 2 dogs in Mandalorian Raiders, I mark one of the dogs with target and tell the DPS to go for target, other dog, boss. Only the boss is tauntable anyway and the boss has aggro switching, if the tank keeps them busy as much as they can and uses their single-target taunt (they won't have AOE taunt yet) on cooldown then they're doing their job.

Because it's a level 25 FP and most people have no clue how to play properly at that point, especially when the dogs should be kept away from the boss who the tank should be beating on (the boss has an aura that increases the dog's damage so they need to be separated). People tend to be idiots, especially when it's lol-leveling content. If a strategy isn't readily and *obviously* apparent, most people couldn't be bothered to figure it out or even to follow it if it's spelled out to them.

 

Thanks for the info on the fight. Sadly it is one of those fights where the strategy isn't "obviously" apparent. Add to that, people still learning to tank/dps/heal, don't have their full compliment of tanking, damage and healing abilities, and there is no HM version of the FP so people will be lucky if they do it more than 3-4 times per character.

I grasp and understand the concept, but I am admittedly guilty of this. I usually kill strongs first because I can wipe then out in about 3 seconds flat. Elites and above though, I ignore until the weaker enemies are taken care of.

 

Well damn. If you can down the usual lvl 50 strong that fast, you should be able to one shot ANY normal/weak. Which begs the questions why aren't you?

 

Frankly, any DPS worth a hoot should be able to take out norma/weak mobs in 5 secs or less. On my sniper, I can easily 1-2 shot them (a crit from Ambush will kill just about any normal in the game, and if it doesn't Follow Through will finish it off; in FP's this means one less mob inside of 3 secs, timed right=simultaneous with tank's pull), strongs usually in about 3-4 shots. The advantage being near immediate reduction in group damage. On their own, the normal mobs hit like a limp noodle, so damage from them on DPS is (or should) be minimal. (Think death from a thousand needles) I have also found that when I am tanking a strong or elite and the DPS is also attacking the same mob, if I have to go off the strong/elite to taunt a normal attacking my healer, I quickly loose aggro on the strong elite because aggro generation in SWTOR is not like other MMO's where tanks can hit a mob once and never loose aggro.

I remember my Tankadin in WoW could run a gauntlet of mobs, tag everything once and have it follow me thru half the dungeon. Can't do that in SWTOR.

 

Another thing to consider is, in the 3-6 sec's the DPS is working on the normals while the tank is on the elite, that is 3-6 seconds of aggro lead the tank is able to build on the DPS when they finally get to the tank's target. Which means, DPS is less likely to pull aggro and tank's Guard can be where it belongs, on the healer.

 

While leveling, the same strategy should also be used, kill the weak stuff first, quickly reducing the overall amount of damage taken. It is why I like leveling with HK-51 and his Assassinate skill (one less mob to do damage on me before the fight even starts).

Edited January 7, 2013 by Aberd

On my healer I love those fights where I spend the entire time healing myself while everyone else is oblivious...

 

Heh I run a round pillars playing hide and go seek casting a HoT on my tank as I get in LoS of him.

, I quickly loose aggro on the strong elite because aggro generation in SWTOR is not like other MMO's where tanks can hit a mob once and never loose aggro.

 

Which btw is a point of note for DPS players. Give the tank half a chance to get and hold the aggro. Some boss fights the tank specifically CANNOT keep on building aggro due to the fight mechanic. (e.g. the big rakghould in Kaon which does knockbacks and must be kited from barrel to barrel).

 

Despite this, I've seen DPS players carry on hitting from range as hard as they can, followed shortly by complaints that the tank isn't doing their job. It's not a bloody race, chill out on the DPS to let the tank well... tank!

My main is a sawbones, my first alt is a infiltration shadow (terrible dps, but a total blast to play), however in HM FP more times than not I get complimented on my dps by the healer or the tank. I look at mox and I am doing around 1400, with burst of 2200. Not exactly great considering my gear, but I am killing mods in the right order and using my interrupts and defensive cooldowns and when I do hit one of the high burst that crits which could causes me to pull aggro, I will hit Force Cloak or a defensive cooldown if force cloak isn't up.

 

So even if you are very average dps, kill in the right order and people will think you are very good dps.

Except that if you are coming from other MMO's, it doesn't work the same way. This is my 3rd mmorpg......both of the other two had it set up that dps concentrated solely on the main tank's target. AT ALL TIMES! If you didn't, you were called out for it and "taught" how to do it correctly. It also seems that tanks in those other games have more taunts and abilities to grab full mob aggro. In raid groups, there would always be an off-tank that would be assigned and certain dps would be assigned to assist him in burning adds. It also didn't help that most of the time, it was better to burn the boss asap and ignore the adds (the adds would poof when the boss went down.) The group set-up in this game is way different too....I"m used to 6-man groups, w/tank, healer, and a mix of others. That mix included dps, power-feeders, mezzers, etc. Just some things to point out that make the fights here somewhat disorienting at first.

When i'm tanking I never taunt or do anything to any "weak" enemy. DPS's should deal with them. If they don't and the healer dies it's not my problem or fault.

Except that if you are coming from other MMO's, it doesn't work the same way. This is my 3rd mmorpg......both of the other two had it set up that dps concentrated solely on the main tank's target. AT ALL TIMES! If you didn't, you were called out for it and "taught" how to do it correctly. It also seems that tanks in those other games have more taunts and abilities to grab full mob aggro. In raid groups, there would always be an off-tank that would be assigned and certain dps would be assigned to assist him in burning adds. It also didn't help that most of the time, it was better to burn the boss asap and ignore the adds (the adds would poof when the boss went down.) The group set-up in this game is way different too....I"m used to 6-man groups, w/tank, healer, and a mix of others. That mix included dps, power-feeders, mezzers, etc. Just some things to point out that make the fights here somewhat disorienting at first.

Not having played any other MMOs (TOR is my first), I find this sort of thing surprising.

 

What would be the benefit of ignoring weaker mobs and having the DPS focus on the tanks main high-health target?

 

It would seem that even in other MMOs, a weak enemy is a) Still capably of doing damage to the party and b) Dies relatively quickly so why not kill them immediately?

 

Do killing the weak mobs give a buff to the elite mob (like a mini-enrage)? If you kill weak mobs do they respawn with more of them (herakles and the hydra)? Do every elite mob come with a tight enrage timer so any time dps'ing trash is bad?

The main tank may be tanking the lower mobs first, then taking on the bigger one, but you always focus on his target. Most even just tell you to target them (the tank) and your attacks go through him. This also helps him keep aggro too (which is another weird thing about this game, I don't seem to find a way to turn on targeting through someone else.)

The main tank may be tanking the lower mobs first, then taking on the bigger one, but you always focus on his target. Most even just tell you to target them (the tank) and your attacks go through him. This also helps him keep aggro too (which is another weird thing about this game, I don't seem to find a way to turn on targeting through someone else.)

So just to get this straight, in other MMOs, if the dps is attacking the same target as the tank, instead of competing for aggro, any threat the dps makes gets added to the tank's threat?

Edited January 8, 2013 by Khevar

So just to get this straight, in other MMOs, if the dps is attacking the same target as the tank, instead of competing for aggro, any threat the dps makes gets added to the tank's threat?

 

No it's not added. It just means they aren't attacking something the tank isn't actively tanking, so are pulling random things off making it harder on the tank.

 

The only other MMO I played was WoW many years ago, and from what I remember its trash packs didn't usually come with so many normal and strong adds, it was mainly multiple elites (also the packs weren't so spread out). The fights were more about CC and tanks controlling everything, where as in SWTOR it seems that control of the weaker mobs is being expected of DPS whilst the tanks take the elites damage until the rest are mopped up.

 

As pointed out though, that is in general. There are quite a few exceptions (Mercenaries in Kaon come to mind, which also made me think about how crap people are at interrupting), which people will also expect DPS to know about, unless the DPS say they haven't been there before or are unsure of what the mobs do.

As a tank myself, I've seen this quite often in HM Fp's. I have gotten into the habit of holding aggro on the champ, then pulling one add to me(I'm PT so I have grapple) and then single shot attacking the other weak or elite before turning my attention back to the two in front of me. This allows the weaker mobs to get downed while maintaining aggro on the champ, when both dps and I can then focus on it.

 

It also helps, in a group find, to type out a plan for a general understanding(doesn't always work-if it is decided to cc two droids and immediately someone throws an AoE, that player gets a vote for kick if it happens twice, but helps). Mostly now though, I run with just my guildies.

which is another weird thing about this game, I don't seem to find a way to turn on targeting through someone else.

In key bindings, there's a binding for "acquire target's target". IIRC it's bound to alt-t by default.

The difference in Swtor to "other" mmo's is that threat is not instantly generated at 300% here, it is very hard to keep aggro on 4-5+ mobs. Add to the fact that most non-elite mobs can be killed in seconds it is just more practical for the tank to focus on the strongest mobs to build the threat whilst your dps kill the weaker ones.

The difference in Swtor to "other" mmo's is that threat is not instantly generated at 300% here, it is very hard to keep aggro on 4-5+ mobs. Add to the fact that most non-elite mobs can be killed in seconds it is just more practical for the tank to focus on the strongest mobs to build the threat whilst your dps kill the weaker ones.

Okay, so that's interesting. I'm still trying to wrap my head around this.

 

Would it be correct to say (as regards other MMOs):

 

1. When fighting a group of mobs there aren't a lot of weak ones.

2. The other mobs take a long time to kill.

3. If the dps tried attacking the other mobs, they would get overwhelmed and would die.

4. It's easy for tanks to hold aggro on the entire group.

5. So killing the one the tank is attacking will ensure that only the tank takes damage during the fight?

Edited January 8, 2013 by Khevar

I do try to kill the weakest ones first, but sometimes that creates a problem where everyone targets the same mob and it dies so fast that time is wasted in aborted ability activations and re-targeting. In that situation I usually switch to a stronger one for a while. And sometimes I just don't notice all the weaker enemies, or one of them is behind an obstacle and I can't shoot it.

 

I hope people aren't complaining about the moments like this when you just don't see the right target. or if you have already commited to a target and are burning it down. I am DPS and follow this weak to strong kill order unless there are healers present then I go after them first like a honey badger (like in long shots in section X). Honestly, most of the people that don't follow basic game strategy have never gone online to figure out what they are doing wrong.

just take me with you to your HMs. i may not have a lot of gear but i kill things in the right order, sometimes with an accidental force leap to the cc target... >.>