Sounds like a Guardian / Vanguard problem to me.

 

Why compare the spec to Marauders/Sentinels?

 

The problem of the Shadow 23/1/17 hybrid is that it does significantly more damage than either of the other two tank specs while having only slightly worse survivability than a Guardian and better than a Vanguard (as that is primarily a shield tank, lacking defensive CDs).

 

In a regular warzone if there's no Smasher or Pyrotech (unlikely but it happens) a well-played Shadow hybrid can put up better numbers than anyone. No Defense/Vigilance hybrid will do that, even in DPS gear. And tank gear doesn't help a lot...

 

So yeah, compared to the other two tank specs the 23/1/17 is OP (you can argue that they are somewhat worse healer guards than Guardians as that is true but the difference isn't really that big as the difference in damage output). It's also far more useful and effective than some of the DPS specs (Vigilance, Concealment, Telekinetic, Gunnery, Balance Sage, even Dirty Fighting).

only thing 23/1/17 is good for is to ninja cap/pull + interrupt caps... you won't kill anything (unless a badie or drunk).

0/27/14 has far more power, but prodobly to many buttons for some people to use it's full potencial.

 

I like lots of buttons, I have a naga. What is the ability priority for this spec 27/14? Sorry for all the questions.

 

IMO the tank hybrid is fine and I would actually like to try a spec that does more damage and still maintains some survivability. I ran full balance until 50 and that spec is a little squishy for 50 pvp, especially when I had on recruit.

The problem of the Shadow 23/1/17 hybrid is that it does significantly more damage than either of the other two tank specs while having only slightly worse survivability than a Guardian and better than a Vanguard (as that is primarily a shield tank, lacking defensive CDs).

 

So yeah, compared to the other two tank specs the 23/1/17 is OP (you can argue that they are somewhat worse healer guards than Guardians as that is true but the difference isn't really that big as the difference in damage output). It's also far more useful and effective than some of the DPS specs (Vigilance, Concealment, Telekinetic, Gunnery, Balance Sage, even Dirty Fighting).

 

^ this.

Sins/shadows must be adjusted. DPS - like other stealth dps (operatives). Tanks - like other tanks (for example, juggs). It means damage and abilities:

 

* -30% overall damage output for every spec. In DPS it means maximum 4.5-5 k crits, like operatives do. No more 7-8 k hits (see Shinarika video) or ever 10 k hits (see ultimate records thread). No more any 4 k hits in tank spec - only maximum 2-3 k, like guardians have.

* Force wave: 1 min CD (= like guardians force push); operatives dont have any such ability ever!

* Force speed: +50% speed over 6 sec, 1 min CD (= like operatives have)

* Self healing: 0.5% (= like maras in annihilation have). No more 100-200 k healing per wz. Enough 30-40 k, like maras and juggs have.

* Force pull: must be talented, but if takes cannot be allowed Force Wave. No one other class dont have BOTH push and pull. Its way TOO OP. (operatives have not any kind of things)

* Demi-god mode resilence: cost -50% of health (= like mara's godmode) - rememmer, operatives still have not any same god mode still.

* Base defence 10%: only in tank spec, must be reduced -5% in DPS spec - operatives and juggs have only 5% base defence

 

- with these changes, Sins/shadows will be fine and adjusted.

Guys guys, why go for many changes when can kill many hybrids with this change

 

 

• Death Field can now only be used with lightning charge stance.
  

 

Asassins must be forced to play 31 pts builds, those are relatively balanced. Its the BS that comes from these hybrids that makes sins op.

Edited January 25, 2013 by NoTomorrow

PvP is orientated towards group play and so is the class balance. So classes aren't just balanced against one another, ie a 1vs1. It's balanced in a group setting, where stuff like taughts, heals, friendly and enemy pulls are mixed into the equation. MMOs also tend to try and avoid rock-paper-scissors balance as this is fustrating, so you aren't balanced around killing 1 specific class, but rather around the effectiveness of you in a group.

 

Except Merc, I have no idea what that is balanced around.

 

That is simply not true, PVP in this game really boils down to damage and damage migration and the specs that have the most of that brings something to the table. tell me a scenario were 5 of another class is better than having 5 smash jugg/gaurd, all other things being equal such as healing.

Edited January 25, 2013 by Hexdoll

That is simply not true, PVP in this game really boils down to damage and damage migration and the specs that have the most of that brings something to the table. tell me a scenario were 5 of another class is better than having 5 smash jugg/gaurd, all other things being equal such as healing.

 

3 MM snipers with some heals will whipe your 5 smash jugs.

PvP is orientated towards group play and so is the class balance. So classes aren't just balanced against one another, ie a 1vs1. It's balanced in a group setting, where stuff like taughts, heals, friendly and enemy pulls are mixed into the equation. MMOs also tend to try and avoid rock-paper-scissors balance as this is fustrating, so you aren't balanced around killing 1 specific class, but rather around the effectiveness of you in a group.

 

Except Merc, I have no idea what that is balanced around.

 

This begs the question in what way is 23/1/17 OP in group play? The damage is pretty middle of the road. 24/1/13 has better damage and much better survivability (outside of 2v1 where instant force lift saves the day). 24/0/14 has the same damage or less (as 23/1/17) but less bursty due to relying on Harnessed Shadows buffed TKT instead of a buffed shadowstrike, but has that better survivability. 0/27/14 has better short term survivability (which is what matters in the zerg. Otherwise you have a healer or you don't and die) MUCH better burst.

 

All 23/1/17 really brings to the table, and where it shines, is in group utility. Mostly this is utilized by having them be able to stall 2v1 attacks on an off node via all that utility. They're a fine 1v1 spec, but so are all the specs I've mentioned when played right and as you yourself said this game isn't balanced against 1v1. In the zerg they really don't have the tank stats to be more viable than a Guardian tank, even in full tank gear. Really the only spec that does ok in the zerg is a very well played Infil/Infil hybrid, maybe a balance. Damage of the hybrid tank specs is better than other tanks but not enough in the middle of the furball.

 

It's the offnode where they shine, and claiming a class is OP because it does very well in an environment that plays to its strengths is silly.

 

Finally, your theft argument is silly. OP is, and always will be, a relative thing. If EVERYONE is capable of doing 6k instant, auto critting AoEs, then Smash isn't OP. It's possibly UP depending on what others can also do. If Pyro PTs, Smash Warriors, Shadows, Bubble Sorcs, and Operative Healers are all OP then 6/8 ACs have an OP spec (or two), except at that point it's not overpowered. It makes the remaining ACs at best UP (though I think sniper is in a good place atm, but then people have called them OP too, so make that 7/8).

 

As has been said: Buff commando, possibly balance bubble stuns and smash specs (bubble stuns because it just makes the game unfun to be stunned constantly, smash to rebalance their damage so it doesn't all come from a single source). I'd say otherwise we're in an ok place atm.

* -30% overall damage output for every spec. In DPS it means maximum 4.5-5 k crits, like operatives do. No more 7-8 k hits (see Shinarika video) or ever 10 k hits (see ultimate records thread). No more any 4 k hits in tank spec - only maximum 2-3 k, like guardians have.

* Force wave: 1 min CD (= like guardians force push); operatives dont have any such ability ever!

* Force speed: +50% speed over 6 sec, 1 min CD (= like operatives have)

* Self healing: 0.5% (= like maras in annihilation have). No more 100-200 k healing per wz. Enough 30-40 k, like maras and juggs have.

* Force pull: must be talented, but if takes cannot be allowed Force Wave. No one other class dont have BOTH push and pull. Its way TOO OP. (operatives have not any kind of things)

* Demi-god mode resilence: cost -50% of health (= like mara's godmode) - rememmer, operatives still have not any same god mode still.

* Base defence 10%: only in tank spec, must be reduced -5% in DPS spec - operatives and juggs have only 5% base defence

 

- with these changes, Sins/shadows will be fine and adjusted.

 

Why not delete the AC while you're at it ?

Here we go again...again.

 

I know right?

only thing 23/1/17 is good for is to ninja cap/pull + interrupt caps... you won't kill anything (unless a badie or drunk).

0/27/14 has far more power, but prodobly to many buttons for some people to use it's full potencial.

 

I like lots of buttons, I have a naga. What is the ability priority for this spec 27/14? Sorry for all the questions.

 

IMO the tank hybrid is fine and I would actually like to try a spec that does more damage and still maintains some survivability. I ran full balance until 50 and that spec is a little squishy for 50 pvp, especially when I had on recruit.

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=548258

you will find fine start there.

(by to many buttons I didnt mean it ahs many buttons, I was refering to ppl expecting to smash 2 buttons and win in 1vs1 all the time)

^ this.

Sins/shadows must be adjusted. DPS - like other stealth dps (operatives). Tanks - like other tanks (for example, juggs). It means damage and abilities:

 

* -30% overall damage output for every spec. In DPS it means maximum 4.5-5 k crits, like operatives do. No more 7-8 k hits (see Shinarika video) or ever 10 k hits (see ultimate records thread). No more any 4 k hits in tank spec - only maximum 2-3 k, like guardians have.

Absolutely not, this would destroy the class. Just because ops are lacking does not mean you should bring down assassins.

* Force wave: 1 min CD (= like guardians force push); operatives dont have any such ability ever!

Again not an operative. Force push is used in conjunction with a gap closer. This ability was nerfed already...I mean really.

* Force speed: +50% speed over 6 sec, 1 min CD (= like operatives have)

No.

* Self healing: 0.5% (= like maras in annihilation have). No more 100-200 k healing per wz. Enough 30-40 k, like maras and juggs have.

Now this is getting in to the realm of crazy. 100-200K???maybe when fsw was around but they pretty much cut self healing in half with 1.2, its fine now.

* Force pull: must be talented, but if takes cannot be allowed Force Wave. No one other class dont have BOTH push and pull. Its way TOO OP. (operatives have not any kind of things)

Again...why operative talk. Anyways it already is a talented tier 5 ability its not like pts who just get it. Also a knockback is not a push there is a pretty big difference I suggest you figure that out.

* Demi-god mode resilence: cost -50% of health (= like mara's godmode) - rememmer, operatives still have not any same god mode still.

*sigh*. There is nothing god mode about shroud. If I pop shroud like a mara would at 10% health I am going to die by the time the duration ends. There are plenty of hard hitting abilities in this game that are weapon base damage.

* Base defence 10%: only in tank spec, must be reduced -5% in DPS spec - operatives and juggs have only 5% base defence

 

- with these changes, Sins/shadows will be fine and adjusted.

 

Be honest. What you really want is this class removed. These changes are not in the ballpark of any other balance issues in the game...they aren't even the same sport.

Thank you Mr Tracer!

I'd just like to add that 7-8k hits are not the norm for 23/1/17. In order for this to happen the enemy being attacked would have to be really undergeared. If that was the case, with an expertise buff I may be able to get a 7-8k hit with a double project, or a 6.5k backstab. Only infil is capable of pulling such big hits frequently. I don't know why people think the survivability in 23/1/17 is awesome... Maras have better survivability in group fights while not even having to sacrifice the damage of a pure dps, so why complain about this? Also I really don't think 23/1/17 is that great of a spec for actual TANKING. Seriously, try guarding someone with that spec and dps gear on, if the person you're guarding gets focused by competent dps your hp is going to drop fast. Edited January 25, 2013 by NamikazeNaruto

Guys guys, why go for many changes when can kill many hybrids with this change

 

 

• Death Field can now only be used with lightning charge stance.
  

 

Asassins must be forced to play 31 pts builds, those are relatively balanced. Its the BS that comes from these hybrids that makes sins op.

 

This I could live with. See, we can agree on things from time to time.

Edited January 25, 2013 by cycao

Thank you Mr Tracer!

 

Don't thank me, Thank person who made this guide.

ps. don't follow it to the bone, adjust it to your own taste.

 

enjoy.

nerf sinns

not shadows

This I could live with. See, we can agree on things from time to time.

 

Hehe, is this the beginning of a friendship? <3

I was 23/1/17 previously, but I prefer the 22/17/2 myself. And I roll in full tank gear too.

 

But I also do not set out to do damage. I set out to take damage. I can still dish out the damage, but I don't care about my damage output, because that usually isn't my job, as a tank in pvp.

They just need to reduce the amount of damage that an assassin//shadow can do while in Tank stance and in turn add more threat to each ability to keep the tank viable in PVE. If they do this, the assassin will have to either Spec into a DPS spec where DPS gear should be worn, or stay in Tank gear... like they should be.... in a *mostly* tank build.

 

The fact that the class is able to be in full DPS gear, while still having all the defensive perks of the tank tree (and mitigation bonus of tank stance) is the major problem and gives it a huge advantage over every other class. Assassins and Shadows can still produce great damage while in tank stance/dps gear where other tanks simply can't. You could argue that this is what makes the class unique but you can't deny that it doesn't give a big advantage in PVP.

 

And yes: There is a lot of balancing that needs to happen. Smash is out of control, Marauders have too many tools//team buffs where other DPS classes do not and Sorc/sage Bubble Blind hybrid giving little to no resolve and is able to be clicked off... Are all things that NEED to be "balanced". ((You could even argue being Rooted with a full white resolve bar as another thing to add to the list))

 

Merc , Sorcs and Operatives all have to spec a specific way to actually be viable and desperately need help in the DPS survivability area. (healing is another story... operatives are TOO good, while mercs are non desired...and sorcs are only really viable if they're bubble blind spec)

 

Assassin/Shadow Tank hybrid does need to be tweaked because right now, it is way too strong. I have one and am fully aware that it needs to be balanced.

 

Do I think it will happen? Not really. I think the Makeb patch is going to do more harm then good because the Bioware development team has no clue what its doing when it comes to "balancing".

Hehe, is this the beginning of a friendship? <3

 

One step at a time.

^ this.

Sins/shadows must be adjusted. DPS - like other stealth dps (operatives). Tanks - like other tanks (for example, juggs). It means damage and abilities:

 

* -30% overall damage output for every spec. In DPS it means maximum 4.5-5 k crits, like operatives do. No more 7-8 k hits (see Shinarika video) or ever 10 k hits (see ultimate records thread). No more any 4 k hits in tank spec - only maximum 2-3 k, like guardians have.

* Force wave: 1 min CD (= like guardians force push); operatives dont have any such ability ever!

* Force speed: +50% speed over 6 sec, 1 min CD (= like operatives have)

* Self healing: 0.5% (= like maras in annihilation have). No more 100-200 k healing per wz. Enough 30-40 k, like maras and juggs have.

* Force pull: must be talented, but if takes cannot be allowed Force Wave. No one other class dont have BOTH push and pull. Its way TOO OP. (operatives have not any kind of things)

* Demi-god mode resilence: cost -50% of health (= like mara's godmode) - rememmer, operatives still have not any same god mode still.

* Base defence 10%: only in tank spec, must be reduced -5% in DPS spec - operatives and juggs have only 5% base defence

 

- with these changes, Sins/shadows will be fine and adjusted.

 

I'm sorry but your vendetta against the AC needs to stop. This is freaking ridiculous. Everyone agrees operative DPS is pretty much destroyed and that's your baseline of comparison? Please don't ever give suggestions on balance again. You clearly don't have the right to an opinion sorry to say. If you can't be objective don't post.

 

RE: Force In Balance. I love this ability too much. Please don't take it away =(

 

Also in general I don't see how it single handedly unbalances the AC. It's nice but it's not exactly game breaking.

Edited January 25, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

Is this why other MMOs simply gave up on allowing hybrid specs? Much of the OP crying comes from hybrid (Dark/Mad, Bubble Stun, Smash).

 

I like the opportunity to put a flexible twist on specs but give a community enough time and they WILL find the "best" way to do it to give your AC an edge, and then it will be overplayed into oblivion.

 

Just because the assassin/shadow AC's hybrid nitch includes a heavy tank setup doesn't mean this hybrid spec needs to be matched against other AC tank specs and considered OP. Because... it is NOT a tank spec, it is a HYBRID spec.

Is this why other MMOs simply gave up on allowing hybrid specs? Much of the OP crying comes from hybrid (Dark/Mad, Bubble Stun, Smash).

 

I like the opportunity to put a flexible twist on specs but give a community enough time and they WILL find the "best" way to do it to give your AC an edge, and then it will be overplayed into oblivion.

 

Just because the assassin/shadow AC's hybrid nitch includes a heavy tank setup doesn't mean this hybrid spec needs to be matched against other AC tank specs and considered OP. Because... it is NOT a tank spec, it is a HYBRID spec.

 

They have to encourage full 31 pts builds. The tier 3 talents should be less useful than tier 7 talents. Developers should be very careful what they put tier 3 and tier 4. A lot of stuff here is way too sensitive.

 

If wither is not good enough for tank sins to like, the chage it, make it more attractive than death field.

Edited January 25, 2013 by NoTomorrow

I was 23/1/17 previously, but I prefer the 22/17/2 myself. And I roll in full tank gear too.

 

But I also do not set out to do damage. I set out to take damage. I can still dish out the damage, but I don't care about my damage output, because that usually isn't my job, as a tank in pvp.

 

Ah yes, 22/17/2 spec is amazing for pure tanking. Imo it may be the best tank spec for shadow currently, considering the smash/bubble stun metagame. I don't usually have issue surviving in this spec if I have a competent healer to back me.

You do know you can change multiple things in 1 patch right? Just because Smash is overpowered, doesn't mean other classes should be overlooked.

 

Just cause your bad doesn't mean they should nerf anything.

 

You've probably never played a sin, have no idea what spec these assassin's are killing you in, and you have no valid argument. So keep Queing up and getting stompped on till you quit or L2P.