This. ^^^^^ A million times over.

 

My main is a Vigilance Guardian, and I LOVE 1v1 encounters. I feel that Vigilance/Vengeance are very well-balanced for 1v1. If I play intelligently, I can win. If I get outplayed, I'll lose, and that seems about right. I like that my spec has a hard counter in Gunslingers/Snipers, but if my timing is right (particularly with Saber Ward, Resolute, and Saber Reflect), I still stand a good chance of beating them. I find it only moderately difficult to beat Sage/Sorcerer/Commando/Mercenary healers; it really comes down to judicious interrupting, good positioning, and lining up DoTs and burst.

 

However, against a Scoundrel/Operative healer that hasn't been lobotomized, I stand no chance whatsoever. The entire fight consists of me doing my damned level best to close the gap, apply as much CC/damage as I can in that short window, keep Freezing Force applied, then watching helplessly as they roll way, spam HoTs, and top off their (barely damaged) health meters, laughing all the way.

 

From a melee DPS perspective, the only way I'll ever kill a Scouperative healer is if another of their critical heals requires a cast timer (and therefore becomes interruptible) and if that darned roll gets AT LEAST an 8-second cooldown.

 

Not a theorycrafter, so take my ideas with a ton of sodium chloride and tune your flamethrowers down a bit before you unload on me.

 

 

have you ever stopped to think that maybe your class just isn't supposed to be able to 1 v 1 everything and win?

Furthermore, unless you're really bad and playing a really good scoundrel 1 v 1 you can easily lock them down as vigi guard. I do it all the time on my guardian. you just need to know when to interrupt and when to pop master strike (when they start to cast and you have kick on CD)

Edited September 13, 2013 by FalmeseReb

I brought up a similar idea in this thread. It went over about as well as this one is. "No, if you nerf me at all you completely break healing!" "You can't do anything to healing until mercs are fixed!" And, of course, my personal favorite: "I'm not overpowered, everyone else just sucks!"

 

But let's start off small. We all pretty much agree that Scoperatives need to get hit with the nerf stick hard. So let's start slow: if you shorten flash bang's mez duration to the same length as awe, you significantly bring scops in line with the other classes. Because there's just no reason for a class to have a CC that has the same duration as whirlwind, is AoE, ranged, AND instantaneous, especially when they already have a stealth escape and now a dash.

 

lol why is it that whenever scoundrels are slightly above average at something everyone cries so hard to get them nerfed? Flashbang has a 10m range btw.

Edited September 13, 2013 by FalmeseReb

this was the most stupid post i ever read. thanks

 

No, he is correct. A good DPS player of any AC can lock down, if not kill a healer. I've played several matches where my team had more heals, yet we did not win because the DPS players, namely smashers wrecked healers standing too close to eachother.

 

I suppose I should go "whaaa nerf smash booohooo it affects 90% of wz outcomes", but it's not really that, the healers just shouldn't have stacked so close: a player skill issue really. And those can't be solved by nerfing whatever it is that owns you, since something else will always come up and be absolutely overpowered from your perspective.

 

Ultimately it doesn't really affect anyone if you pick the QQ path rather than the "learn-to-play-your-class" path, but you might find it more rewarding than waiting months for buffs and nerfs.

I love when people start "Healing Needs a Nerf" threads and then just whine about Scoundrels.

 

To be fair, theyre the only healers in wzs.

its the only healers you see.

 

the amount of sorc/sage and commando/merc heals i have seen tends to 0. why would anybody play a merc or a sage if you get a way better healer with a scoundrel.

 

still i think that there needs to be a better healing debuff. i dont mind if i and 3 other dps die while attacking the healer, as long as we can take him out. but with the amount of survivability and resource management the scoundrels have + guard it is almost impossible to kill him before all 4 of us die

 

So really your thread is a nerf ops/ scoundrels thread in stealth mode.

Just lost 2 times today because we had too many heals.

 

I'm a healer by nature but if there are too many the who is accomplishing the objectives? it is not usually how we play.

Once we leave our circle and start to venture out we get real squishy and end up dead way too often.

 

I am a heals so I am prob bias but I like the balance as is. they just need to balance the classes of heals better.

wwww

Just lost 2 times today because we had too many heals.

 

I'm a healer by nature but if there are too many the who is accomplishing the objectives? it is not usually how we play.

Once we leave our circle and start to venture out we get real squishy and end up dead way too often.

 

I am a heals so I am prob bias but I like the balance as is. they just need to balance the classes of heals better.

wwww

 

To be fair, it is a fine line. No healers and your team is screwed. Two or three healers -- especially scoups -- and your team unstoppable. Four or more healers and you don't have enough DPS to get anything done; you've gone from an unstoppable wall to a giant marshmallow.

Just to caviat I have ended up paired with Risha? another great sorc heals on shadow and we both posted 800k+ scores more than anyone one the other team and our team still lost! for pre-made rank I see how it is tough to deal with but for pug it doesn't seem that big a deal. ?

have you ever stopped to think that maybe your class just isn't supposed to be able to 1 v 1 everything and win?

Furthermore, unless you're really bad and playing a really good scoundrel 1 v 1 you can easily lock them down as vigi guard. I do it all the time on my guardian. you just need to know when to interrupt and when to pop master strike (when they start to cast and you have kick on CD)

Well, I actually rolled this Vigilance Guardian because the consensus seems to be that they are good, solid 1v1 fighters. And no, I don't expect to beat everything. I DO expect to stand a sporting chance, though.

 

I don't expect to have the same toolkit that everyone else does. I don't mind losing, AT ALL.

 

What I DO have a problem with, though, is a class that has SOOOOO many tools in the toolbox that the general expectation is that 2-3 good DPS are REQUIRED to beat them.

 

And that's the place that Operative/Scoundrel healers are in right now. They ARE overtuned, and saying otherwise is flat-out denial of reality.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: In the game of rock, paper, scissors, Scouperative healers are the durasteel blast door.

i think what would bring us a great deal further would be to look into the scouperatives resource management. sometimes i feel like i am accomplishing nothing when hacking away at a scouperative. he just hots and insta heals himself all day without ever dropping to 0 energy.

 

i wouldnt mind dieng in the attempt to kill a scouperative as long as he looses his energy and sometime later he dies cause he has no resource left to heal and mirically some other dps started attacking him after i died.

 

but thats not the case. they just keep spamming theit hots and insta heals and lugh at me while i am out of force after 20 secs of blowing all my load onto his face

What I DO have a problem with, though, is a class that has SOOOOO many tools in the toolbox that the general expectation is that 2-3 good DPS are REQUIRED to beat them.

 

And that's the place that Operative/Scoundrel healers are in right now. They ARE overtuned, and saying otherwise is flat-out denial of reality.

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again: In the game of rock, paper, scissors, Scouperative healers are the durasteel blast door.

 

You have no idea what you are taking about. You should never be able to sole kill the healer. If you do so, it means either way healer has some skill issues or his class needs buff badly.

 

And second healer can't kill anyone. He is as strong as his team is. So this is not a healing issue, it's a team composition and lack of a proper matching system.

 

From what I've seen in this thread half of people have no clue about healing. Roll a toon Scoundrel / operative coz that are "so overpowered" and check how much of this is true. I can assure anyone that healing a pug is no less frustrating that any other role. Tho now your main issue, instead of "I can't solo kill the healer", will be "why those muppets can't protect me, peel this dps that is chasing me so I can't heal anybody". But yea this is a faceroll class, an "endless winning" solution for any pug match.

Edited September 14, 2013 by MasterBLASTERpl

 

What I DO have a problem with, though, is a class that has SOOOOO many tools in the toolbox that the general expectation is that 2-3 good DPS are REQUIRED to beat them.

 

And that's the place that Operative/Scoundrel healers are in right now. They ARE overtuned, and saying otherwise is flat-out denial of reality.

 

havn´t been unable to kill any scoundrel/ops healer i´ve met so far in a true 1vs1 beside when playing my AS-vanguard who simply cant deal enough dmg to get them down. and there are alot of better dps out there, so what does that tell you about your own skill perception?

Know what really bothers me? When I play on my healer it seems I always end up with 4 or 5 other healers making a grand total of six healers. Spending time to respec.

 

However, when I play on my shadow I mostly end up with ZERO healers. The real problem imo is not healers, but the match making system.

There is a healing debuff. Just make sure you have a mara on your team that can use it appropriately

There is a healing debuff. Just make sure you have a mara on your team that can use it appropriately

 

yeah i know the mara has it. cause who else would have it?

You have no idea what you are taking about. You should never be able to sole kill the healer. If you do so, it means either way healer has some skill issues or his class needs buff badly.

 

And second healer can't kill anyone. He is as strong as his team is. So this is not a healing issue, it's a team composition and lack of a proper matching system.

 

From what I've seen in this thread half of people have no clue about healing. Roll a toon Scoundrel / operative coz that are "so overpowered" and check how much of this is true. I can assure anyone that healing a pug is no less frustrating that any other role. Tho now your main issue, instead of "I can't solo kill the healer", will be "why those muppets can't protect me, peel this dps that is chasing me so I can't heal anybody". But yea this is a faceroll class, an "endless winning" solution for any pug match.

 

Healers that can heal thru DPS and heal their own team are unbalanced. There is no point to PvP when a healer can defend themselves and escape and heal their team. Arenas will prove this point when healing in a such a small area make any healing class that much more of defensive wall. As it stand right now, when a team in a WZ has 2-3 healers and the other team doesn't, its an guaranteed win.

 

DPS must give pressure to healers 1v1 or healers are the perfect class. If they are unkillable 1v1 then what is to stop a team of 4 healers in arenas from stalling for the win. Oh that's right, nothing. Its already been done.

 

 

Personally I'm sick of the elitist mentality that most MMOs healers have. They want their classes to be unstoppable healing machines because they are healers. That's the only reason. Every time a healer dies in PvP its because DPS is OP but when DPS dies its because they are mouth breathing morons who can't find their own keyboard.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Arkerus

the thing is, that 90% out of the random warzones, the team with the more healer wins.

 

healing was always very strong in this game since the release, but somehow it has gotten worse and worse and worse.

 

healers are just to crucial right now. one good geared scoundrel/ops wins the game "solo" if his team doesnt consist of dumb players.

 

the pvp is dying more and more and for my part its the opness of healing.

i dont even wanna start with the discusssion of guard + heal. thats a whole different story.

 

every mmorg that i have played so far had at least some decent heal debuffs. this game only has 1 ****** heal debuff

 

/rant over

 

edit: i agree that sorcs and especially mercs dont need a nerf. the generell consens seems to be that sorcs are in a good state where as mercs could need a little buffing.

 

 

o..k where to start. more healers win?.. of course they do it's called attrition/survivability. If your team kills more of their team then you obviously will have more teammates on location.

 

Healing always strong?.. no. It's balanced and hasn't gotten worse, has remained much the same. Dev's will balance the metrics as evenly as possible to remain within parameters they feel appropriate.

 

one good geared scoundrel/ops wins solo?.. if that happens that players team aren't the dumb players, the enemy team is. This is prob the worst of your post, if i'm on my healing toon I either A: get left alone cos other team are dumb or get the odd kill here and there or B: Get pinged immediately if not very soon (which is what mostly happens now) and focused HARD, then I have to employ tactics and teamwork. My sentinel EATS healers, why?.. cos i refer to the first counter I made.. if you as the healer are running around desperately trying to kite me (or los me if I'm in my ranged) GUESS WHAT YOUR NOT DOING!!!.. so if your that "solo scoundrel/op" and I'm the dps that just single targets you all game long, guess what? i've just shut you down and helped my team win (me personally If I'm dps I will go after all healers, however I will try and work a priority at my own discretion or unless a priority target is called). Body count doesn't win games, objectives do. If you and your mates are on a node, and my team kill your team while I force you to run around and heal yourself or die and we cap.. then we win.

 

pvp isnt dying cos of op healing, it's dying cos BW have taken a extremely lax approach to that facet of the game and we all know it. Guard+heal working as intended and a mechanic easily countered.

 

1 heal debuff?.. erm going of memory i'm pretty sure there's at least a few. First and most prevalent to my personal situation would be "crippling throw" but I'm pretty sure nearly every class has a similar debuff, if not heal receive/done then armor pen/reduction.

 

I can understand your frustration and rant honestly, I've had wz's where there has been 3 full blow healers, not so bad if they are blinkered on other team mates. But when they cross heal ugh that sucks. But again teamwork will win out, however you have to play the hand your dealt and unless you go in a 8v8 you won't know what you have as a team comp till it's time.

the thing is, that 90% out of the random warzones, the team with the more healer wins.

 

The team with better players wins. In a random warzone there tend to be more bad DPS than bad healers.

Edited September 14, 2013 by anwg

more dps player period = more dps in a wz

yes less heals and sometimes it is hard to tell if they are good or not , especially if we now also are supposed to get nodes and ****. People need to learn protect and heals should not be venture out or they die in 1 sec.

 

Op heals may post high number but if the enemy team proper marks them and attacks correctly they can be neutralized in a few seconds back to start. Takes more than 1 as it does for all heals I will not lose to anyone 1 v 1 with any of my heals but I will not try to kill you either nore prob can I, never have I solo killed another in 55 lvl play with one of my heals, my job is to heal, not kill. Not sure it would be possible anyways unless they a pve 66 lvl no gear turd.

 

PVP is funer than pve period so play it.

I do not agree. While healers are becoming increasingly important in warzones, a team with too much heals and not enough dps fails. One instance, I was on a team that somehow got 6 helaers, 4 of which were scoundrels, but only 1 dps and a tank. that hypergates was horrible, the other team out dps'ed us and we were not killing the enemy team as much as they were killing us despite healers, causing them to get ahead due to the fact that killing enemy team members gives energy to your pylon.

Dps is needed as much as heals at this point, without them working together its hard to win warzones. So, the more helaers you get, you might be sacrificing a lot of dps in the process and that's no good if you can't really damage people enough to get a decent amount of kills to, charge up a pylon, or in other instances to clear the enemy off a node so you can cap.

You should never be able to sole kill the healer. If you do so, it means either way healer has some skill issues or his class needs buff badly.

This is the single most stupid premise that I've ever seen in an MMORPG.

 

"I WIN" buttons are never a good idea, but when your "I WIN" button is the one that says "Commit Skill Points", then something in the mechanics of the game has gone horribly, horribly wrong.

 

You honestly believe that a healer should never lose a 1v1 fight just because they decided to be a healer? Please tell me you're kidding.

 

Have you forgotten that this game takes place in the Star Wars Universe? What you're saying is that the most proficient Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors should NEVER be able to defeat the combat medic. EVER.

 

I guess in your world the Navy SEAL always loses to the trauma nurse.

Edited September 14, 2013 by RodneyMcNeely

This is the single most stupid premise that I've ever seen in an MMORPG.

 

"I WIN" buttons are never a good idea, but when your "I WIN" button is the one that says "Commit Skill Points", then something in the mechanics of the game has gone horribly, horribly wrong.

 

You honestly believe that a healer should never lose a 1v1 fight just because they decided to be a healer? Please tell me you're kidding.

 

Have you forgotten that this game takes place in the Star Wars Universe? What you're saying is that the most proficient Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors should NEVER be able to defeat the combat medic. EVER.

 

I guess in your world the Navy SEAL always loses to the trauma nurse.

 

You must not be that bright.

 

If a healer can get killed in a 1v1 against a dps. There is no point in bringing them in a warzone.

Pretty gosh darn hypocritical when your thread mentions and I quote "one good geared scoundrel/ops wins the game "solo" if his team doesnt consist of dumb players"

 

Which is exactly what he said in which, good players beat bad players.

 

Now is healing a bit over the top, in some ways yes but the only real issues is what seems like an endless recourse pool for ops/scoundrels and plenty of instant heals.

 

Sorcs/sages are fine and mercs/commandos, when played right can be ok but healing in general does not need to be toned down, just some specs need to be adjusted.

 

 

And a heal heavy team does not equal a win, at least not a 90% success rate.

 

Wisdom, the "heals" are OP sentiment mostly comes from Operatives having a bit too much survivability as heals and their ability to heal very well on the move.

You must not be that bright.

 

If a healer can get killed in a 1v1 against a dps. There is no point in bringing them in a warzone.

I may not be the brightest candle on the cake, but I do have enough neurons working together to know how to peel and taunt for my own healer.

 

Are your healers not receiving the same benefits from their teammates? Because it almost seems like you're suggesting that healers HAVE to be overtuned to account for the fact that they'll be going it alone for the duration of the fight.

 

Ergo, "Our tanks and DPS will be too busy pwning face to worry about our healers, so the healer HAS to be OP to make up the difference".

I actually find it extremely easy to kill Ops, and Scoundrels with my Vanguard. Hit them with a cryo bomb, gut them, turn on ion shied, rifle butt them, ect... and if they try to run, I have a harpoon, and by the time they get out of range and I need to use it, my cryo has finished it's cooldown.