They are using their clones, they are creating terror troopers, something I doubt the AE would allow.

Terror troopers was never their first choice, they loved to clone as much as possible, making elite units vs making elite mass produced Units?

TBH, I reckon they'd rather work for the AE due to mass production of clones.

Terror troopers was never their first choice, they loved to clone as much as possible, making elite units vs making elite mass produced Units?

 

TBH, I reckon they'd rather work for the AE due to mass production of clones.

Though who is to say G0-T0 would not be interested in a clone army? After seeing the effectiveness of the 212th? On the other hand, would the Ascending Empire even be interested in their cloning facilities, cloning is pretty immoral...

Evidence? The Kamineos prided themselves on scientific advancement. So surely quality over quantity would apply here. They did not treat cloning like a drug.

 

Though who is to say G0-T0 would not be interested in a clone army? After seeing the effectiveness of the 212th? On the other hand, would the Ascending Empire even be interested in their cloning facilities, cloning is pretty immoral...

The Jedi were fine with clones.

And G0-T0 can't use Organics unless he's willing to go against HK-01.

And of course, the Kaminoans treated cloning like a BUSINESS. Mass producing clones was always better, we're talking an army that bankrupted the IGBC (along with the seppies of course) the Kaminoans would be rich.

The Jedi were fine with clones.

 

And G0-T0 can't use Organics unless he's willing to go against HK-01.

 

And of course, the Kaminoans treated cloning like a BUSINESS. Mass producing clones was always better, we're talking an army that bankrupted the IGBC (along with the seppies of course) the Kaminoans would be rich.

I'm not sure G0-T0 would care much about HK-01. The droid can easily be hacked, scrapped etc.

Not if there is no demand. Or is Mothma planning on taking over the galaxy?

How much is left to discuss? Honestly, I'm just waiting for Warren now.

Hm? I'm still lurking, just taking a passive role. I can go back an answer a few things, but I don't think it's do much for either side to continue. It's really all up to personal opinion and Beni at this point.

Hm? I'm still lurking, just taking a passive role. I can go back an answer a few things, but I don't think it's do much for either side to continue. It's really all up to personal opinion and Beni at this point.

Hm? I'm still lurking, just taking a passive role. I can go back an answer a few things, but I don't think it's do much for either side to continue. It's really all up to personal opinion and Beni at this point.

Whatever you want, I suppose.

Fortunately, Clone soldiers, pilots, and Obi-Wan Kenobi have all dealt with Buzz Droids and droids similar to those sneaky crawly droids.

Yeah, and they were destroyed by them. Did you see how fast those buzz droids slaughtered the pilots of that transport in the new Clone Wars episodes? Even in Episode III we see that buzz droids are more than effective. It's not like the clones or Jedi ever came up with a way to effectively combat them. If they did, none of them actually bothered to use it.

Considering that pretty much every DS fighter will have buzz droids, I think they'll make short work of clone pilots who are literally defenseless against them.

Just rip Plo Koon's mask off? Right. I can't believe people think it's that simple. If it were, I don't understand how Plo Koon managed to live to be so old, nor do I understand why Asajj Ventress and Durge (the guy who bench-presses fully armored clones and dunks legendary Jedi in lava for teh lulz) didn't do that.

 

It's not that simple, at all.

Plot armor?

If it's not that simple, please explain it to me. Because if an astronaut is in space and their oxygen supply tank is cut off, they die. Similarly, if Plo Koon's mask, that allows him to breath, is damaged, he will die. I'm not sure why you think it's made of beskar and/or glued to his face somehow, but it's not.

Why hasn't anyone just force-pulled Plo Koon's mask off? I don't know. That doesn't mean it can't happen.

Yeah, and they were destroyed by them. Did you see how fast those buzz droids slaughtered the pilots of that transport in the new Clone Wars episodes? Even in Episode III we see that buzz droids are more than effective. It's not like the clones or Jedi ever came up with a way to effectively combat them. If they did, none of them actually bothered to use it.

 

Considering that pretty much every DS fighter will have buzz droids, I think they'll make short work of clone pilots who are literally defenseless against them.

If they were so effective, the Republic wouldn't have been so successful against the Seppies, right? And besides, I'm pretty sure it was the gunship and bauss red SBDs that did most of the work.

Give me a list of your fighters, please.

Plot armor?

 

If it's not that simple, please explain it to me. Because if an astronaut is in space and their oxygen supply tank is cut off, they die. Similarly, if Plo Koon's mask, that allows him to breath, is damaged, he will die. I'm not sure why you think it's made of beskar and/or glued to his face somehow, but it's not.

 

Why hasn't anyone just force-pulled Plo Koon's mask off? I don't know. That doesn't mean it can't happen.

Plot armor doesn't matter. What does matter is that the people Plo Koon fought didn't take advantage of that weakness, obviously meaning that they didn't have the opportunity or ability to. I do not think that it's untouchable (no idea why you would think that). The fact is that this has only been brought into play once, and only when circumstances (brought about by TCW's idiot Clones) allowed for it.

Besides, the only scenarios that would allow for anyone to try to remove his mask are long-shots, very long-shots.

Give me a list of your fighters, please.

Too bad you're severely outmatched in that area. Here's the deal: if you do hit-and-run tactics, you leave yourself weak at home. You need a good-sized chunk of your navy in order to make successful hits on AE worlds, which leaves your defensive forces at a disadvantage, considering how outgunned they are.

Here's the deal: if you do ANY offensive action, that leaves you weak at home. You need a good-sized chunk of your navy in order to make successful hits on DS worlds, which leaves your defensive forces at a disadvantage, considering how outnumbered they are.

Let's think about it. If the AE goes on the offensive, it uses a fleet of, say, 25 ships. That leaves five ships defending each AE planet. If a DS force of 50 ships were to attack a AE world while the AE fleet is on the offensive... it's 5 to 50. And then the planet is completely destroyed.

So sure, the AE can attack the DS all it wants. But in doing so, all of its planets are left with a dismal force easily destroyed by the much more massive DS fleet. Would the DS lose worlds by launching a counter-strike? Yes. But the AE will lose many more.

So would hit and runs leave the DS weak at home? Maybe a little. But that fact of the matter is, if Mon Mothma wants to keep trillions of people under her rule safe, she's gonna need to play it defensively. Even stationing ten ships over every world is a risk when the DS could easily launch a force five times that big at multiple AE planets at the same time.

So hit and runs will work because if the AE wants to attack while the DS is "weak at home" they also become "weak at home" and then billions of people die. The AE won't take that chance.

Yeah, and they were destroyed by them. Did you see how fast those buzz droids slaughtered the pilots of that transport in the new Clone Wars episodes? Even in Episode III we see that buzz droids are more than effective. It's not like the clones or Jedi ever came up with a way to effectively combat them. If they did, none of them actually bothered to use it.

 

Considering that pretty much every DS fighter will have buzz droids, I think they'll make short work of clone pilots who are literally defenseless against them.

Plot armor?

 

If it's not that simple, please explain it to me. Because if an astronaut is in space and their oxygen supply tank is cut off, they die. Similarly, if Plo Koon's mask, that allows him to breath, is damaged, he will die. I'm not sure why you think it's made of beskar and/or glued to his face somehow, but it's not.

 

Why hasn't anyone just force-pulled Plo Koon's mask off? I don't know. That doesn't mean it can't happen.

Beni, I'm curious, do these arguments get any points if they were adressed last match?

Because Warren, the Buzz droids were effective because Palpatine gave Dooku the technical readouts of every Republic vessel ever built, their weak points, structural integrities and Shield Density spikes etc.

And Koon's mask would not be ripped off.

Firstly, because it's an extension of himself, and we've seen in other cases (Fake arms, legs, etc) these extensions of oneself are protected by the same Force Barriers other force users have, so you could just as easily ask "why didn't they yank him over a ledge and send him to his death?"

But yeh, you'd need huge force to rip that mask off, huge, and that's if you can even get through Koon's defense and Offence, His force abilities, Kenobi's Defense, IK defence, clone Guards etc.

It's simply not a viable strategy to kill someone.

That mask was designed to withhold the vacuum of Space, that's more pressure than any droid can put on.

Also, Jedi have been taught to go for quite some time without air, with such a blatant weakness (sort of, maybe.) Koon would not have risked it, and likely would have learnt this technique in reserve.

So sure, the AE can attack the DS all it wants. But in doing so, all of its planets are left with a dismal force easily destroyed by the much more massive DS fleet. Would the DS lose worlds by launching a counter-strike? Yes. But the AE will lose many more.

On another note, while it's true Mothma will want to protect her people, G0-T0 will want to protect his facilities.

I think the DS fleets are best suited to hit, infiltrate, run, then sabotage.

Here's the deal: if you do ANY offensive action, that leaves you weak at home. You need a good-sized chunk of your navy in order to make successful hits on DS worlds, which leaves your defensive forces at a disadvantage, considering how outnumbered they are.

 

Let's think about it. If the AE goes on the offensive, it uses a fleet of, say, 25 ships. That leaves five ships defending each AE planet. If a DS force of 50 ships were to attack a AE world while the AE fleet is on the offensive... it's 5 to 50. And then the planet is completely destroyed.

 

So sure, the AE can attack the DS all it wants. But in doing so, all of its planets are left with a dismal force easily destroyed by the much more massive DS fleet. Would the DS lose worlds by launching a counter-strike? Yes. But the AE will lose many more.

 

So would hit and runs leave the DS weak at home? Maybe a little. But that fact of the matter is, if Mon Mothma wants to keep trillions of people under her rule safe, she's gonna need to play it defensively. Even stationing ten ships over every world is a risk when the DS could easily launch a force five times that big at multiple AE planets at the same time.

 

So hit and runs will work because if the AE wants to attack while the DS is "weak at home" they also become "weak at home" and then billions of people die. The AE won't take that chance.

Not really, The majority of Aurbere's worlds are shielded, and have a lot of defenses.

Yours do not.

His fleet is capable of BDZ'ing, yours really isn't.

If this were to happen, your planets would be destroyed before your invasion of his, (destroying the planetary defenses from the ground) had even begun.

So how does the AE win?

 

Sweep G0-T0's legs out from under him and wait him out. Once he runs out of assassins, or sees that assassins are inefficient, he'll have to attempt to fulfill his primary objective personally. Close the trap and we have scrap metal.

Unfortunately, this is not the original Kaggath series where all G0-T0 had was a fancy ship and some assassins. G0-T0's not about to run off into enemy territory if (if) his assassination attempts fail. He's got an army! He has to galaxy's most powerful droid production facilities, the heart of the galactic underworld, the base of the most sophisticated starship designers in the galaxy, and cloning facilities that made millions of soldiers.

I don't think a couple failed assassination attempts will send him over the edge into insanity.

If the DS can't win on assassination tactics, they can still win on sheer power.

Beni, I'm curious, do these arguments get any points if they were adressed last match?

 

Because Warren, the Buzz droids were effective because Palpatine gave Dooku the technical readouts of every Republic vessel ever built, their weak points, structural integrities and Shield Density spikes etc.

 

And Koon's mask would not be ripped off.

 

Firstly, because it's an extension of himself, and we've seen in other cases (Fake arms, legs, etc) these extensions of oneself are protected by the same Force Barriers other force users have, so you could just as easily ask "why didn't they yank him over a ledge and send him to his death?"

 

But yeh, you'd need huge force to rip that mask off, huge, and that's if you can even get through Koon's defense and Offence, His force abilities, Kenobi's Defense, IK defence, clone Guards etc.

 

It's simply not a viable strategy to kill someone.

 

That mask was designed to withhold the vacuum of Space, that's more pressure than any droid can put on.

 

Also, Jedi have been taught to go for quite some time without air, with such a blatant weakness (sort of, maybe.) Koon would not have risked it, and likely would have learnt this technique in reserve.

I think in a carefully planned assassination attempt it would certainly be a target, but in a straight up fight it seems unlikely. Regardless catching a Jedi off guard is difficult anyway and other means would probably work better.

Unfortunately, this is not the original Kaggath series where all G0-T0 had was a fancy ship and some assassins. G0-T0's not about to run off into enemy territory if (if) his assassination attempts fail. He's got an army! He has to galaxy's most powerful droid production facilities, the heart of the galactic underworld, the base of the most sophisticated starship designers in the galaxy, and cloning facilities that made millions of soldiers.

 

I don't think a couple failed assassination attempts will send him over the edge into insanity.

 

If the DS can't win on assassination tactics, they can still win on sheer power.

To win on power you need to win in space.

Which I really cannot see happening.

Ever.

Once his assassins fail, the only option he has left is to lead a direct assault with whatever assassins he has left, or face being bombed to death.

Because Warren, the Buzz droids were effective because Palpatine gave Dooku the technical readouts of every Republic vessel ever built, their weak points, structural integrities and Shield Density spikes etc..

Did no one watch the Clone Wars episode with the buzz droid?

The buzz droid literally stabbed through the glass of the cockpit, depressurizing it and sending the pilot flying out into space. Somehow I don't think you need technical readouts of enemy ships to do that.

Not really, The majority of Aurbere's worlds are shielded, and have a lot of defenses.

 

Yours do not.

 

His fleet is capable of BDZ'ing, yours really isn't.

 

If this were to happen, your planets would be destroyed before your invasion of his, (destroying the planetary defenses from the ground) had even begun.

So yah, all shielded. In order to destroy what ever is on the planets surface both parties will have to use ground assaults. Nor should we assume that Mon Mothma would ever resort to Base Delta Zero tactics anyway. We might want to discuss the particulars of ground invasion planet by planet, and maybe shipyard battle/inflitration as well.

 

Did no one watch the Clone Wars episode with the buzz droid?

 

The buzz droid literally stabbed through the glass of the cockpit, depressurizing it and sending the pilot flying out into space. Somehow I don't think you need technical readouts of enemy ships to do that.

In a slow moving gunship.

But yes, you would. With missiles, the huge vacuum of space etc, you'd need the EXACT size, evasive Manoeuvre possibilities etc.

Besides, it's been stated in multiple sourcebooks (Vehicles and Vessels, Droids etc) that Buzz droids would not have been anywhere near as effective without Palpatine.

To win on power you need to win in space.

 

Which I really cannot see happening.

Ever.

 

Once his assassins fail, the only option he has left is to lead a direct assault with whatever assassins he has left, or face being bombed to death.

I mean lets face it assassin is just a fancy phrase for "he who kills covertly".

The cities on Kamino are shielded, as are the factories on Geonosis, Nar Shaddaa also has several planetary shields, the planet of Mon Cal itself is pretty moot and mainly underwater anyway and I presume Bothawui at its peak had planetary shields as well considering that in did in the Old Republic era. So yeah, all shielded as well.

 

So yah, all shielded. In order to destroy what ever is on the planets surface both parties will have to use ground assaults. Nor should we assume that Mon Mothma would ever resort to Base Delta Zero tactics anyway. We might want to discuss the particulars of ground invasion planet by planet, and maybe shipyard battle/inflitration as well.

Smaller shields like those of Geonosis are easier to Bypass.

And yes, I know this, the problem is that Warren's forces are NOT as equipped as Aurbere for precision strikes such as these, the droids she has would suck at this, Terror Droids perhaps but they alone would not be enough I fear.

That, and Planetarry shields are easier to defend.

And, can I have your source on the Geonosian foundries being shielded? Pogguls was, yes, but that was the reason they sent 4 generals and 6 Jedi to take that factory alone.

There's no reason to believe the others are Ray Shielded too, especially because Pogguls factory was made a huge deal

Troops can be smuggled. Fleets distracted etc.

 

I mean lets face it assassin is just a fancy phrase for "he who kills covertly".

Terror droids can be smuggled.

I'd like to see you utilize a B1 army by smuggling, seeing as their only advantage was strength in numbers.