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Same gender relationships clarifications?


elexier

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I haven't played with Jasea yet, and when I had Ashara I was light side so turning her dark side wasn't an issue, but I agree with the option to turn either one light or dark during your romance, as long as my female character has the same opportunity. Options like that are cool, its always fun to have the option to turn characters light or dark side, I wouldn't mind if they expanded those light/dark options to include more romances if those are the only ones, again so long as female characters get that same option. We female characters should have the exact same opportunities the male characters have, we do in every other aspect of the game and there's no reason why romances should be any different. Equal treatment, its not a hard concept, its the point of this thread and its what the vast majority of players want, hopefully it'll become reality sooner rather than later.

 

I've played through Jaesa's story, and the LS/DS thing was good. But leave it at her. There's no need for Ashara too, honestly.

 

Especially since it would then be that both female Sith Force Using Companions having a changeable alignment.

 

There are some unfortunate implications that I don't think people have really thought through.

 

(Hint: has to do with only female Sith force users being able to have their alignments changed due to the influence of their PCs.)

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There are some unfortunate implications that I don't think people have really thought through.

 

(Hint: has to do with only female Sith force users being able to have their alignments changed due to the influence of their PCs.)

 

There are negative counter-implications, too. While you're clearly (and perhaps correctly) implying that the writer team feels that women are more, shall we say, malleable than men (and thus the female NPCs can be bent to the wills of the player and the males can't) there's another side of the coin that, equally, I think hasn't been considered.

 

The Force 'alignment' function is, to me, a sign that the writers wanted to put something complex, interesting and dynamic (one might even say 'intimate') into the companions' stories. Why can't male companions have something like that? Providing that functionality to both male and female companions would address both inconsistencies.

 

I enjoyed the decision-making process that led to my Jaesa's inclinations. That was fun to play through - really fun. I would've loved to have seen that process (perhaps stretched out a bit more over an entire chapter, so you can slowly redeem or corrupt a companion over a stretch of time) for all Force-using companions.

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There are negative counter-implications, too. While you're clearly (and perhaps correctly) implying that the writer team feels that women are more, shall we say, malleable than men (and thus the female NPCs can be bent to the wills of the player and the males can't) there's another side of the coin that, equally, I think hasn't been considered.

 

That men are stubborn and intractable, and incapable of change? ;):p:D

 

The way it is at the moment, with just Jaesa, is okay. I'd prefer her to be romaceable for both sides of the force, but if it's just her, the implication is that it is only she that is so malleable.

 

The Force 'alignment' function is, to me, a sign that the writers wanted to put something complex, interesting and dynamic (one might even say 'intimate') into the companions' stories. Why can't male companions have something like that? Providing that functionality to both male and female companions would address both inconsistencies.

 

I enjoyed the decision-making process that led to my Jaesa's inclinations. That was fun to play through - really fun. I would've loved to have seen that process (perhaps stretched out a bit more over an entire chapter, so you can slowly redeem or corrupt a companion over a stretch of time) for all Force-using companions.

 

I was going to put a similar suggestion in my post, but I was in a hurry at the time. (Hmm, that's interesting. All the force using companions bar one are female...)

 

Ultimately I don't like that idea any better, though. The idea that my PCs are the sole moral guide to their companions really just rubs me up the wrong way. Why is it that I'm the ultimate arbiter of their moralities? Aren't they people unto themselves? Don't they have a will of their own?

 

I have never liked it. I hated it in NWN, I hated it in KotOR. Even if it hadn't just been Aribeth and Bastilla it had happened for (say it was Galen and/or Carth), I still would have hated it.

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Thank you to those who replied to my previous post.

 

On another note... I am wondering about those who are excited about the new SGR flirts, in the upcoming expansion or whatever, if they see the move as good thing or a bad thing? It sort of feels like, to me, that Bioware (and affiliates) are simply giving us a tiny bone to chew to keep our mouths busy. It doesn't seem fair. Or do you think it's an opening to more equal availability of SGR's in the future? Do you think it's best to put money into something that you hope gets better or to withhold that money as a warning to the company (that we want full SGR's or nothing)? What gets the message across better? Obviously, if you enjoy the game no matter what... the question is less important.

 

On a side note... I am wondering if I choose to cancel my subscription, do I lose everything (characters, gear, credits, etc.)? Or would they just continue on when/if I resubscribe in the future?

 

What I think it means is that SGR lines are being considered for all future content. Makeb is the first real story expansion the game has had so its good to hear that SGR flirts will be in. None of the companion stories are being expanded on, at least I don't think they are. Even if it is its a continuation of what has been in already instead of adding completely new stuff.

We will get SGR content fully integrated into our companions and class stories, it is just a lot of work so it will take a lot longer than originally anticipated.

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That men are stubborn and intractable, and incapable of change? ;):p:D

 

The way it is at the moment, with just Jaesa, is okay. I'd prefer her to be romaceable for both sides of the force, but if it's just her, the implication is that it is only she that is so malleable.

 

 

 

I was going to put a similar suggestion in my post, but I was in a hurry at the time. (Hmm, that's interesting. All the force using companions bar one are female...)

 

Ultimately I don't like that idea any better, though. The idea that my PCs are the sole moral guide to their companions really just rubs me up the wrong way. Why is it that I'm the ultimate arbiter of their moralities? Aren't they people unto themselves? Don't they have a will of their own?

 

I have never liked it. I hated it in NWN, I hated it in KotOR. Even if it hadn't just been Aribeth and Bastilla it had happened for (say it was Galen and/or Carth), I still would have hated it.

 

Personally I love being able to change my companions based on my actions. I never viewed it as being the end all influence of their morality (even if, mechanically, that is whats happening), but that the main character is so influential and important to the companion characters that they have some sway over them. I mean, say you are extremely angry at someone (they murdered your parents or something) and you are about to kill them when one of your closest friends shows up and they say 'Hold on, remember your values. This person isn't really worth it. Don't become like him/her' you might decide to just let them go, but if that same person shows up and says 'This person is trash and they deserve to die. You should kill them before they can ruin someone else's life' then that might push you over the edge.

This is especially true in KotOR 2 because the exile's ability to feel the force from other people and manipulate it was kind of her thing and more or less the entire reason for that game.

Edited by MoobooMagoo
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That men are stubborn and intractable, and incapable of change? ;):p:D

 

>.>

 

No, that male companion stories aren't worth putting morality mechanics into along the order of Jaesa-style decision-making.

 

Ultimately I don't like that idea any better, though. The idea that my PCs are the sole moral guide to their companions really just rubs me up the wrong way. Why is it that I'm the ultimate arbiter of their moralities? Aren't they people unto themselves? Don't they have a will of their own?

 

I have never liked it. I hated it in NWN, I hated it in KotOR. Even if it hadn't just been Aribeth and Bastilla it had happened for (say it was Galen and/or Carth), I still would have hated it.

 

<shrugs> In the Star Wars universe people - good people, righteous people - are corruptible by the Dark Side and redeemable by the Light Side. In the majority of the cases where a Force-using companion comes onto the PC's team it's as a peripheral or outright student position. A Force-user's Master certainly should be able to make an impact on their morality compass. That's one of the reasons I think that stretching something like that out over an entire chapter would be better. While hers is the only of its kind I've seen with Jaesa it's essentially one or two decisions in as many encounters that make all the difference. Now imagine her having her moral compass guided (or bent) over the course of a whole chapter. Imagine a Dark Side JK bending Kira, or a Light Side JC fending off Dark Side temptation to protect Nadia from corruption as she learns what it is and how to defend against it herself.

 

THAT is the kind of moral compass story I could get into.

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see, I've been saying that the entiiiire time that he doesn't seem to be 'all that straight', he is just the typical 'gentleman-farmboy' with a female smuggler and all 'bro bro' with the male one. and there are more than enough 'minor hints'. I feel with you, no doubt. it's making me all grrr and arrr that it's just not going to happen any time soon (outside my head, anyway)
I know, I know. :rolleyes:

 

I'm thinking that Corso being all protective of girls is because of what happened with Rona, how he feels responsible for that even though he was still a child when she left.

 

I agree those hints are there and I'm really trying my best not to read into stuff too much. Even the little lines he utters when you accidentally click on him, some of them sound rather.... intimate. :p

 

I wish we could replay the dialogues. Some of them fly by and you're like "Wait... what? What did he just say?" and then it's over. :p

 

I have a good feeling about him. Now the waiting is a different matter.

 

My guess is it may take them another year to implement companion SGR options, given they're still working on them.

 

That's, you know... kinda tough. :rolleyes:

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The implications of a character "going bi" because she's turned evil are pretty nasty, so I really hope that doesn't happen. Now whether or not any possible LS romance should be same-gender or universal... I shan't say.

 

Let's not forget that bisexuality is often used as a short-hand for "evil" or "morally questionable" in a fair amount of media (most recent being in Skyfall) as that comes from, and reinforces, the idea that bisexual people are either greedy or confused. There is also classic bi-erasure which says that historically bi people haven't really been bi, they've just been trying to hide their homosexuality by romancing the opposite sex and then privately being "themselves".

 

Another reason to be wary of the anti-SGRA argument of "it doesn't make any sense for everyone to be bi!", or it is for me, at least.

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Let's not forget that bisexuality is often used as a short-hand for "evil" or "morally questionable" in a fair amount of media (most recent being in Skyfall) as that comes from, and reinforces, the idea that bisexual people are either greedy or confused. There is also classic bi-erasure which says that historically bi people haven't really been bi, they've just been trying to hide their homosexuality by romancing the opposite sex and then privately being "themselves".

 

Another reason to be wary of the anti-SGRA argument of "it doesn't make any sense for everyone to be bi!", or it is for me, at least.

 

Realistically, it doesn't make any sense for *everyone* to be bi; of course, for *some* people to be bi *does* make sense.

 

And that just led me to an interesting thought (though I doubt we'd see it in-game): what about bi-curious companions who ordinarily prefer one gender or the other, but are curious what it would be like with the opposite of their normal preference?

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Another reason to be wary of the anti-SGRA argument of "it doesn't make any sense for everyone to be bi!", or it is for me, at least.

 

Yeah.

 

I don't like the "bi" label applied here regardless. They are pretty much "herosexual" even now as they romance a generic PC (it's just that, now the game has gender restrictions on them because...).

 

Ultimately I don't like that idea any better, though. The idea that my PCs are the sole moral guide to their companions really just rubs me up the wrong way. Why is it that I'm the ultimate arbiter of their moralities? Aren't they people unto themselves? Don't they have a will of their own?

 

It does make their story more engaging for the player I'd say. I don't mind it too much considering the medium (i.e., a RP story where you the player can shape some things about the story....I'm fine with that extending to NPCs/companions as well).

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Realistically, it doesn't make any sense for *everyone* to be bi; of course, for *some* people to be bi *does* make sense.

 

And that just led me to an interesting thought (though I doubt we'd see it in-game): what about bi-curious companions who ordinarily prefer one gender or the other, but are curious what it would be like with the opposite of their normal preference?

 

There's some curious banter in DA2. I love the banter of your companions in DA2. Bethany asks Isabella about girls and what it's like to be with one. I think Isabella is the only real bi/pansexual character in DA2. Bethany seems curious/questioning, but that at the same time comes across as a young woman who hasn't really explored anything in life, and could as well be a lesbian. I never felt that all characters in DA2 were bi. To me they were all gay and lesbian except Isabella who's pansexual. What I like about DA2 is that it allows me to fill in their orientation, except for maybe Isabella. I understand that some see it as all bi characters, but if they hadn't done it the way they did, I wouldn't have been able to fill in the blanks myself, which is ultimately what I liked about it so much.

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Good grief, look at the media's fun new punch line.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2013/01/14/star-wars-game-segregates-gay-characters-on-gay-planet/

 

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/423849/20130114/star-wars-old-republic-sgr-gay-planet.htm

 

http://www.destructoid.com/star-wars-the-old-republic-and-its-new-gay-planet--242389.phtml?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

"The Gay Planet".

 

Really, people? REALLY? Not sure if I find this funny or sad at this point.

 

But hey, SWTOR made it to Fox news.

Edited by chuixupu
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Ugh. Good to see they're only quoting the anti-SGRA chaps in their articles, great impartial reporting there.

 

Hopefully Bioware sees this and realises that only having same-sex [Flirt]s on Makeb is going to reflect negatively on them.

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strangely, I'm surprised fox news deems a video game report-worthy to begin with, but who knows what's going on inside their heards...

 

I just find it to be quite telling that just because there will ALSO be homosexual flirt options nobody even talks about how flirt options have been a part of this game since basically the start (I haven't played all gender/class combos but I'm pretty damn sure the male sith warrior gets their first [flirt] prompt at the questgiver who tells you to go see your class trainer (the sith pureblood who tells you 'nice try kiddo but you're not worthy - yet')

 

I'm fairly certain that makeb will also include heterosexual flirts, probably way more than gay ones too (unless they go the gender neutral route)

 

 

edit: is it normal for fox articles to not include who actually wrote them or am I just blind?

Edited by amnie
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I'm fairly certain that makem will also include heterosexual flirts, probably way more than gay ones too (unless they go the gender neutral route)

 

The cynic in me says that Bioware are putting in two (one lesbian, one gay man) [Flirt] options for same-sex, but that your character will be shot-down or the issue will be skirted and-let's-get-back-to-the-war-thank-you, and that the rest of the [Flirt]s will be pawing and fawning opposite-sex [Flirt]s so that the straight (=narrow) people won't feel left out :rolleyes:

 

Edit: My mind won't let this go-

 

Cipher Nine lands on Makeb with strict instruction to oversee the new Sith Intelligence's role in the war effort and how the Hutts are taking to their alliance. Walking through the space port he spots his contact, and a cute chap he is as well!

 

Cipher: Perhaps we could discuss this more... privately?

Contact: This isn't that kind of planet. There's a war on, in case you haven't noticed. *proceeds to flirt with Ensign Temple openly and shamelessly*

 

Yay :/

Edited by Tatile
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lol, like I said, slow day in the news room. There is probably some people who just type in "Gay" into search engines because they know it's often a hot topic.

 

Lots of good pictures, but not enough kissing. Would recommend narrower search terms.

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The cynic in me says that Bioware are putting in two (one lesbian, one gay man) [Flirt] options for same-sex, but that your character will be shot-down or the issue will be skirted and-let's-get-back-to-the-war-thank-you, and that the rest of the [Flirt]s will be pawing and fawning opposite-sex [Flirt]s so that the straight (=narrow) people won't feel left out :rolleyes:

 

that's kind of what I'm afraid of. basically I'm afraid of being slapped in the face again and again.

 

I mean, I can even deal if there's only one 'actually gay' option and every other npc is straight... I guess it would make the whole 'deal' more realistic (then again there's not much realism in running around being blue and swinging a lightsaber)

 

my personal 'ideal' would really be that there's one straight and one gay romance (for both genders, so a total of 4 per faction - or maybe they can share quests like in voss or tatooine, I wouldn't mind that, either)

but you would be able to [flirt] with all of them, and then they would simply reply with 'nope, not intersted' or something similar.

 

plain and simple I hope that Makeb will introduce us to bioware no longer releasing content without 'gay' options (and damn you bioware please aknowledge that females getting way less flirt options is kinda dumb, too)

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plain and simple I hope that Makeb will introduce us to bioware no longer releasing content without 'gay' options (and damn you bioware please aknowledge that females getting way less flirt options is kinda dumb, too)

 

Only men play this game and some of them play female characters, why would you want to subject them to seeing more chances to [Flirt] with men than they already have? /sarcasm

 

Seriously, though, I think I spoke about this a bit in the Sexism Hammer thread that's around. Long story short - society's mixed and damaging approach to female sexuality makes a situation where someone felt it wasn't possible to give female characters the same amount of options as males. I'm going to say because **** shaming.

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There's some curious banter in DA2. I love the banter of your companions in DA2. Bethany asks Isabella about girls and what it's like to be with one. I think Isabella is the only real bi/pansexual character in DA2. Bethany seems curious/questioning, but that at the same time comes across as a young woman who hasn't really explored anything in life, and could as well be a lesbian. I never felt that all characters in DA2 were bi. To me they were all gay and lesbian except Isabella who's pansexual. What I like about DA2 is that it allows me to fill in their orientation, except for maybe Isabella. I understand that some see it as all bi characters, but if they hadn't done it the way they did, I wouldn't have been able to fill in the blanks myself, which is ultimately what I liked about it so much.

 

I can't recall at this point if I noticed anything that would imply Isabela was pansexual rather than bisexual, but her history makes it clear it's either of those. As for Merrill, Anders, and Fenris, I was of the attitude that it didn't matter. I mean... why couldn't companion characters have different sexual preferences in different playthroughs, just like the player characters?

 

And if all three of them actually are bisexual, then I don't see why that would be a problem. In my one DA2 playthrough both the Warden and Hawke were lesbian, so the odds of Hawke ending up with four bisexual companions don't really bother me. Sometimes unlikely things happen. And, heck, for all I know bisexual people in Thedas could have some innate inclination towards heroics.

 

strangely, I'm surprised fox news deems a video game report-worthy to begin with, but who knows what's going on inside their heards...

 

edit: is it normal for fox articles to not include who actually wrote them or am I just blind?

 

Oh, I'm pretty sure Fox News take every chance they can get to bash on video games.

 

And it seems to be anonymously posted under "Fox News Scitech". Cowards.

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Only men play this game and some of them play female characters, why would you want to subject them to seeing more chances to [Flirt] with men than they already have? /sarcasm

 

Seriously, though, I think I spoke about this a bit in the Sexism Hammer thread that's around. Long story short - society's mixed and damaging approach to female sexuality makes a situation where someone felt it wasn't possible to give female characters the same amount of options as males. I'm going to say because **** shaming.

 

oh yeh. I study sociology, so I'm pretty 'desillusionated' about pretty much... everything. lol.

 

doesn't mean I'll just sit back and be silent, though. I am not one to picket signs and scream bloody murder, but I will post the very problems I see here on the forums every once in a while so nobody forgets :]

Edited by amnie
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There's some curious banter in DA2. I love the banter of your companions in DA2. Bethany asks Isabella about girls and what it's like to be with one. I think Isabella is the only real bi/pansexual character in DA2. Bethany seems curious/questioning, but that at the same time comes across as a young woman who hasn't really explored anything in life, and could as well be a lesbian. I never felt that all characters in DA2 were bi. To me they were all gay and lesbian except Isabella who's pansexual. What I like about DA2 is that it allows me to fill in their orientation, except for maybe Isabella. I understand that some see it as all bi characters, but if they hadn't done it the way they did, I wouldn't have been able to fill in the blanks myself, which is ultimately what I liked about it so much.

 

I love the banter of our companions in both DA and DA2. I wish SWToR would implement that. I agree with you completely about being able to fill in the blanks. They did so well on DA2 in that regard. Wonderful work.

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Actually, when I first read about the upcoming SGR flirts, my first thought was "Gay Planet". I felt insulted. Which is why I had asked the questions I did earlier. It feels silly to me that I have to go to Gay Planet/Pride Planet/Rainbow Planet... whatever, to acquire the illusion of possibly fitting into the Star Wars universe.

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