Jump to content

Too many people are moving away from Juggs. Bioware, please help.


Krozis

Recommended Posts

A trend I've noticed over the past several months is that people are moving away from Juggs to Marauders.

 

I personally never liked Rage. It's -always- been good, but now it's extremely hard to convince anyone of the value of Vengeance... especially in ranked PVP. (Bioware: what are the numbers like on Juggernauts playing Vengeance in Ranked PVP? I'm assuming it's super low?)

 

So for some reason we saw Immortal got cut off at the knees. Why? I'm not sure... never saw anyone complaining about 31 spec Immortal damage the way I see 31 point tank Shadow/Assassin damage. <--- this really doesn't make any sense. Nevertheless, you did it. So how many people would say play a 'tank' Juggernaut in 31 Immortal spec? It's also broken.

 

As a result, I've seen more and more people move away from their juggs. There are some diehards, don't get me wrong, but generally people are seeing Jugg as having a bad tank tree (you MUST hybrid it in PVP to get the most out of your survivability which is WRONG for a tank tree. The damage is truly lethargic thanks to your changes.)

 

With Marauders (no this is NOT a NERF marauder thread) people see 3 valid PVP trees. All have their uses, and some are downright perfect for specific maps.

 

Bioware, I'm begging you to take a long look at Vengeance spec. Right now it feels like a neutered hybrid of Annihilation and Carnage.... an ugly, sibling of those trees. Bioware please take a look at how many Vengeance Juggernauts/Guardians are playing in ranked warzones.... I'm betting it's very close to where Arsenal Mercs/Commandos are sitting.

 

For the record I have all classes at 50. While I feel the Merc is the most lacking in PVP right now, Vengeance spec Jugg is my first class to 50 ( I think!) and it's WAY over due for some help. I also confess I'm one of the people who left the Jugg for a marauder. I got him to 50, and transferred the gear.

 

Is there any chance we could see something with Makeb and the new levels that will help some of the game's lackluster specs? I'd love to see some love for Vengeance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So for some reason we saw Immortal got cut off at the knees. Why? I'm not sure... never saw anyone complaining about 31 spec Immortal damage the way I see 31 point tank Shadow/Assassin damage. <--- this really doesn't make any sense. Nevertheless, you did it. So how many people would say play a 'tank' Juggernaut in 31 Immortal spec? It's also broken.

They didn't nerf it because of PvP complaints, obviously there weren't (m)any to begin with. They buffed immortal aoe damage/threat (people were complaining about the lack of it in PvE), but they did it in a retarded way... at the expense of single target damage.

Edited by byteresistor
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ah, ok.... that may very well be the case as my experiences with the class are 90% PVP related. I'm not even sure if it's just the people I recognized as Juggernauts (myself included) but many of the Jugg PVP types have seemed to move away from it due to those reasons.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

well, in SWTOR generally people divide into those who play for mechanics and those who play for role/specs. I would not, ever turn from Juggernaut simply because holding saber 2h is much more effective than using dual sabers in combat. 2h way is much more stable and safe.

 

but looking stat wise, yes Juggernauts deserve a little bit of boost in their pvp dps/survivality - but hey! we have force push and force push is the funniest ability in the whole game ( for me, at least )

Link to comment
Share on other sites

well, in SWTOR generally people divide into those who play for mechanics and those who play for role/specs. I would not, ever turn from Juggernaut simply because holding saber 2h is much more effective than using dual sabers in combat. 2h way is much more stable and safe.

 

You seem to have forgotten your own category : the ones who plays for a visual style. (I'm myself one of them)

Choosing a class on what they wear/use is not in the domain of mechanics, and neither in the domain of role/specs.

 

I think that in SWTOR we can add another category that doesn't exist in other MMOs : the ones who plays for an image/story.

Edited by Altheran
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You seem to have forgotten your own category : the ones who plays for a visual style. (I'm myself one of them)

Choosing a class on what they wear/use is not in the domain of mechanics, and neither in the domain of role/specs.

 

I think that in SWTOR we can add another category that doesn't exist in other MMOs : the ones who plays for an image/story.

yup, you are right, in fact second part of my first phrase was supposed to be about look not role/spec, missworded myself. Image/story is very important!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only reason to play a jugg is if you want to tank. Sentinel or mauras do a lot more dps in both pve and pvp, plus in pvp they have superior defensive cds. However, bh tanks are easier and more effect than guardians, especially for aoe tanking in that you don't need to be in melee range to use your aoe.

 

I moved over to sentinel to various advantages as a dps. I still play my guardian. My main problem with guardians is they are supposed to be more defensive than sentinels/maras, but in reality sentinels are more defensive and have superior dps in pvp and pve. Thus, there is little reason to continue playing a guardian or jugg if you intend to play a dps role otherwise only reason to play a guardian is to tank in pve.

Edited by Knockerz
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You seem to have forgotten your own category : the ones who plays for a visual style. (I'm myself one of them)

Choosing a class on what they wear/use is not in the domain of mechanics, and neither in the domain of role/specs.

 

I think that in SWTOR we can add another category that doesn't exist in other MMOs : the ones who plays for an image/story.

 

Visual style will not make you win in pvp or do great in pve. That's more having to do with role playing than with game mechanics. I suspect only people playing a dps jugg/guardian will be people who like the 2 hander style, but those people will a minority and most people will probably jump ship if they only want to play a dps spec.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A trend I've noticed over the past several months is that people are moving away from Juggs to Marauders.

 

I've noticed that pure spec'd Jugg Tanks are becoming a rare quality too. However, I remain true to my Immortal spec'd tank. Unlike others, I use 36/3(Single Saber Mastery)/2(Decimate) for my Jugg. I may not do a lot of damage compared to those who have gone the hybrid route; however, I do have staying power, can stand up too and tie up 3 or 4 opponents while my team mates burn them down or take the objective. I defend my healer to my last breath and a node.

 

I enjoy playing him and very satisfied with how I have geared (all in augmented (fortitude) WH). I know there will be those who condemn me for speccing out the way I have, but the tree in its entirety gives my Jugg the ability to stand in the middle of a hot warzone taking a pounding, soaking up damage whereas my team mates are not. Thus is the life of a true tank.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've noticed that pure spec'd Jugg Tanks are becoming a rare quality too. However, I remain true to my Immortal spec'd tank. Unlike others, I use 36/3(Single Saber Mastery)/2(Decimate) for my Jugg. I may not do a lot of damage compared to those who have gone the hybrid route; however, I do have staying power, can stand up too and tie up 3 or 4 opponents while my team mates burn them down or take the objective. I defend my healer to my last breath and a node.

 

I enjoy playing him and very satisfied with how I have geared (all in augmented (fortitude) WH). I know there will be those who condemn me for speccing out the way I have, but the tree in its entirety gives my Jugg the ability to stand in the middle of a hot warzone taking a pounding, soaking up damage whereas my team mates are not. Thus is the life of a true tank.

 

Please school me on this because I don't have a high level jugg and I also took a break.

People are speccing into the tank tree and then complaining not enough dps?

 

 

Is the difference vast? and if so, does it not make up the difference in tanking?

 

 

I thought the whole point of tanking tree is to absorb damage and aggro/taunt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please school me on this because I don't have a high level jugg and I also took a break.

People are speccing into the tank tree and then complaining not enough dps?

 

 

Is the difference vast? and if so, does it not make up the difference in tanking?

 

 

I thought the whole point of tanking tree is to absorb damage and aggro/taunt.

 

A lot of folks spec just high enough into the tank tree to get the majority of the defensive abilities (basically up to sonic barrier) and then spec vengeance up to impale. They do this because the top talent in immortal, crushing blow, was somewhat mangled in the last major jugg/guardian update - the overall damage was reduced and it was turned into a weird cone AoE. Theoretically this was to help with AoE threat, but the cone is narrow enough that I find getting more than a couple targets in it is pure luck (speaking as a jedi guardian here - my jugg is still only L33).

 

The mixed spec has the advantage of a hard hitting single target attack (impale) on a 9s recharge instead of the 15s for crushing blow, unstoppable, which gives you 20% extra damage restance and immunity to CC for 4 seconds after a force leap, free smash and 4% extra damage resistance from deafening defense (up to 15% extra if you can fit in enraged defense without shedding to much aggro). You give up 4% shield chance, which is not a big deal on a jugg since they rely more on defense and damage reduction, 4% internal and elemental resistances (which deafening defense more than covers) and your rage generation/usage is not quite as good. According to those who play this spec your aggro generation is about equal to the full defense spec as impale may not have increased threat gen but it does more damage than crushing blow and is on a shorter recharge, so the net aggro generation is roughly equal.

 

Speaking personally, I tried the spec on my jedi guardian and didn't really like it as I had to much trouble with focus use/generation and was always running out. Now, I only tested the build in solo play on ilum, so it might work better tanking in a flashpoint or operation, but I switched back to the full defense spec and enjoy that a lot more.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I play dps jug veng. Have been since release its my first and last character, im not some ***** that ditches a character to play whatever becomes the most op. funny thing is I still **** on all these mara/sents in PvP I love these smashers there so easy to beat.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of folks spec just high enough into the tank tree to get the majority of the defensive abilities (basically up to sonic barrier) and then spec vengeance up to impale. They do this because the top talent in immortal, crushing blow, was somewhat mangled in the last major jugg/guardian update - the overall damage was reduced and it was turned into a weird cone AoE. Theoretically this was to help with AoE threat, but the cone is narrow enough that I find getting more than a couple targets in it is pure luck (speaking as a jedi guardian here - my jugg is still only L33).

 

The mixed spec has the advantage of a hard hitting single target attack (impale) on a 9s recharge instead of the 15s for crushing blow, unstoppable, which gives you 20% extra damage restance and immunity to CC for 4 seconds after a force leap, free smash and 4% extra damage resistance from deafening defense (up to 15% extra if you can fit in enraged defense without shedding to much aggro). You give up 4% shield chance, which is not a big deal on a jugg since they rely more on defense and damage reduction, 4% internal and elemental resistances (which deafening defense more than covers) and your rage generation/usage is not quite as good. According to those who play this spec your aggro generation is about equal to the full defense spec as impale may not have increased threat gen but it does more damage than crushing blow and is on a shorter recharge, so the net aggro generation is roughly equal.

 

Speaking personally, I tried the spec on my jedi guardian and didn't really like it as I had to much trouble with focus use/generation and was always running out. Now, I only tested the build in solo play on ilum, so it might work better tanking in a flashpoint or operation, but I switched back to the full defense spec and enjoy that a lot more.

 

Thank you for the in-depth response. I understand now! I'd probably still go full-tanking spec.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of folks spec just high enough into the tank tree to get the majority of the defensive abilities (basically up to sonic barrier) and then spec vengeance up to impale. They do this because the top talent in immortal, crushing blow, was somewhat mangled in the last major jugg/guardian update - the overall damage was reduced and it was turned into a weird cone AoE. Theoretically this was to help with AoE threat, but the cone is narrow enough that I find getting more than a couple targets in it is pure luck (speaking as a jedi guardian here - my jugg is still only L33).

 

The mixed spec has the advantage of a hard hitting single target attack (impale) on a 9s recharge instead of the 15s for crushing blow, unstoppable, which gives you 20% extra damage restance and immunity to CC for 4 seconds after a force leap, free smash and 4% extra damage resistance from deafening defense (up to 15% extra if you can fit in enraged defense without shedding to much aggro). You give up 4% shield chance, which is not a big deal on a jugg since they rely more on defense and damage reduction, 4% internal and elemental resistances (which deafening defense more than covers) and your rage generation/usage is not quite as good. According to those who play this spec your aggro generation is about equal to the full defense spec as impale may not have increased threat gen but it does more damage than crushing blow and is on a shorter recharge, so the net aggro generation is roughly equal.

 

Speaking personally, I tried the spec on my jedi guardian and didn't really like it as I had to much trouble with focus use/generation and was always running out. Now, I only tested the build in solo play on ilum, so it might work better tanking in a flashpoint or operation, but I switched back to the full defense spec and enjoy that a lot more.

 

Erichough is more or less correct. I leveled as a full Immortal juggernaut and played that way until 1.4 came out when I switched to hybrid and have not looked back. One important thing he missed is that hybrid spec reduces the cooldown of Force Scream by 25% allowing you to benefit from Sonic Barrier more often.

 

So the hybrid has better survivability and single target damage, essentially the same single target threat at the cost of worse rage generation, AoE damage, and AoE threat.

 

I don't like the full Immortal build because the top half of the tree exists primarily to offset the uniquely high resource penalty of our tanking stance while not offering much in the way of survivability or treat/damage gain.

 

Also I find the current implementation of Crushing Blow horrible. It barely does more damage then our default rage dump at a higher cost with a cumbersome AoE tacked on. To proc the AoE you need 5 stacks of the armor debuff and the only efficient way to place those is to use Smash followed by Sundering Assault making it an AoE that I can only use quickly on targets I have already hit with my main AoE.

 

This causes two problems. It makes a joke of Crushing Blow not breaking CC because Smash will. Also in most of the fights where I'd want another AoE it is because the enemies are spread out and Smash won't get them all or they come as adds part way through the fight and I rarely found Crushing Blow useful in those situations.

Edited by KarathAnno
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A trend I've noticed over the past several months is that people are moving away from Juggs to Marauders.

 

I personally never liked Rage. It's -always- been good, but now it's extremely hard to convince anyone of the value of Vengeance... especially in ranked PVP. (Bioware: what are the numbers like on Juggernauts playing Vengeance in Ranked PVP? I'm assuming it's super low?)

 

So for some reason we saw Immortal got cut off at the knees. Why? I'm not sure... never saw anyone complaining about 31 spec Immortal damage the way I see 31 point tank Shadow/Assassin damage. <--- this really doesn't make any sense. Nevertheless, you did it. So how many people would say play a 'tank' Juggernaut in 31 Immortal spec? It's also broken.

 

As a result, I've seen more and more people move away from their juggs. There are some diehards, don't get me wrong, but generally people are seeing Jugg as having a bad tank tree (you MUST hybrid it in PVP to get the most out of your survivability which is WRONG for a tank tree. The damage is truly lethargic thanks to your changes.)

 

With Marauders (no this is NOT a NERF marauder thread) people see 3 valid PVP trees. All have their uses, and some are downright perfect for specific maps.

 

Bioware, I'm begging you to take a long look at Vengeance spec. Right now it feels like a neutered hybrid of Annihilation and Carnage.... an ugly, sibling of those trees. Bioware please take a look at how many Vengeance Juggernauts/Guardians are playing in ranked warzones.... I'm betting it's very close to where Arsenal Mercs/Commandos are sitting.

 

For the record I have all classes at 50. While I feel the Merc is the most lacking in PVP right now, Vengeance spec Jugg is my first class to 50 ( I think!) and it's WAY over due for some help. I also confess I'm one of the people who left the Jugg for a marauder. I got him to 50, and transferred the gear.

 

Is there any chance we could see something with Makeb and the new levels that will help some of the game's lackluster specs? I'd love to see some love for Vengeance.

 

agree ...

 

 

why to play juggernaut when is only 1 tree - rage good and rest is **** ...

 

marauders are still the top, all trees are good and usefull...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A jugg as a tank is the most overpowered class/spec in the game. No, the OP king is not the bubble sorc, and no, it's not a smasher (neither is really OP, just needs some tweaks). It's a tank jugg. No team has any success without a juggernaut tank. PT tank is a total LOL in PvP, and tanksins have different priorities than actual tanking.

 

So go ahead, and move away from the most overpowered spec in the game.

Edited by SneiK
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A jugg as a tank is the most overpowered class/spec in the game. No, the OP king is not the bubble sorc, and no, it's not a smasher (neither is really OP, just needs some tweaks). It's a tank jugg. No team has any success without a juggernaut tank. PT tank is a total LOL in PvP, and tanksins have different priorities than actual tanking.

 

So go ahead, and move away from the most overpowered spec in the game.

 

I am going to disagree with you there. Smash monkeys and their dual-wielding equivalents have become an absolute bane especially since it is now the spec of choice in premades. You put 2-3 of these bastards in one place it's over and even in a very rare 1v1 situation they can easily demolish anything they are up against other than each other within the span of their powerful defensive cooldowns.

 

The tank spec on the other hand takes a bit more paying attention to play effectively now in that you need to watch to make sure you have the agro. It's a little tougher to hold single target agro but stacking damage does the trick and when all else fails you have your taunts. As far as durability being inferior to the hybrid I am not sure that it really matters with a semi-competent healer. I haven't gone farther than HM FPs and SM Ops on my guardian which I recently respecced back to Defense but I am very happy with his PVE tanking ability, more so than in the hybrid spec. You couldn't pay me to take a tank other than a shadow into PVP, however.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A jugg as a tank is the most overpowered class/spec in the game. No, the OP king is not the bubble sorc, and no, it's not a smasher (neither is really OP, just needs some tweaks). It's a tank jugg. No team has any success without a juggernaut tank. PT tank is a total LOL in PvP, and tanksins have different priorities than actual tanking.

 

So go ahead, and move away from the most overpowered spec in the game.

 

So according to your logic, a Juggernaut or Guardian is OP because they are the best at tanking ?

 

Being the best in something doesn't necessary mean it's OP, it can also mean that all other are weak and underpowered.

 

As a former tank specced Shadow, here what I think : the only tanky person I ever faced was a Guardian and I think that what all the tanks should be when using proper tank build and gear-. As a Shadow I think I'm underpowered as a tank, but OP if I use DPS gear while in tank spec because of some talents that haven't been well thought.

So a tank Juggernaut is OP ? I really don't think so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's because maras are the fotm and apparently they do everything a jugg can do but better, even defensive cd's are better than their tank counterpart as odd as that sounds...I've had a jugg since launch that was originally a tank but has since gone dps. I still think it does a fantastic job doing damage despite everyone knocking it for not being as good as mara. I also prefer the single saber look to that dumb duel wield...as long as we're within the 5% mark bioware promised I'm fine.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...