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Kaggath Series: Skere Kaan vs Naga Sadow


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“No game of dejarik can be won without pawns...”

 

Round 6: Skere Kaan vs Naga Sadow

 

Welcome to the sixth instalment of the ‘Kaggath vs Series’ in which I’ll be pitting the power bases of iconic Star Wars characters against each other.

 

The last battle, Darth Plagueis vs G0-T0, was unexpected victory for G0-T0, for Plagueis’ lack of precognition sealed his fate when G0-T0 exposed the Sith Lord and assassinated him with a squad HK-50s. But onto round six.

 

For all those of you aren’t aware, the Kaggath is an ancient rite of the Sith, ‘one part duel, one part large-scale dejarik-match’. The two combatants have full use of their power bases, be it armies, strongholds or fleets, in order to outwit and outmanoeuvre their opponent. The Kaggath is no simply lightsaber duel, although it can come down to one, and the arena can be anywhere: a planet, a star system or the entire galaxy.

 

Before we begin, let’s just go over the ground rules again:

 

 

  • The arena: the known galaxy.
  • No outside help of any kind, the combatants cannot call upon assets outside their power base, or other prominent powers. This excludes allies of the era, i.e. Gav Daragon. (Concerning the Brotherhood of Darkness however, no members are prominent enough to be excluded)
  • No outside involvement, other powers will not and cannot interrupt or affect the battle, for the purpose of argument they are non-existent.
  • No surrender, fight to the death!
  • No superweapons e.g. Supernova, Force bomb.
  • Technology level is universal: blaster fire, armouring, lightsabers etc. are all the same regardless of period, all that matters is size, quantity and power. This is especially poignant for this battle; it is only classed as archaic if it was deemed so in that era.
  • Use your imagination: obviously these powers existed in a different time frame but let’s just pretend.

 

So, the combatants: Lord Kaan was a charismatic leader, skilled strategist and powerful warrior. He exceptionally skilled in the use of mind tricks and proficient in battle meditation. Naga Sadow was ambitious, ruthless, intelligent and manipulative. He was an accomplished Sith sorcerer and master of generating Force illusions.

 

Kaan was the de facto leader of the Brotherhood of Darkness, a dark perversion of the Jedi Order with an armada of Sith, soldiers and ships at its disposal. While Naga Sadow commanded the hordes of Massassi Warriors and Sith spawn of the ancient Sith Empire – led by their Sith masters. Both empires shook the Republic and its Jedi protectors to the core, but who will win? Which order is stronger?

 

Let the Kaggath begin!

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Just thinking out loud here but they both had powerful meditation abilities, with Kaan having "normal" battle meditation and Sadow's mass of illusions (this required for him to be on his personal meditation spire). Sadow's illusions were powerful enough to actually injure people which is practically having the ability to make your own soldiers. To me, it all really comes down to whether or not Sadow has control of Korriban. If he didn't have control of Korriban, he'd need to create another area where he could meditate with just as much focus, which would take time, likely enough time so that the brotherhood of darkness could gain a few key victories over sadow's forces.

 

(Questions, is Kaan driven to the dark side yet, and when you say sith-spawn, does that include tarentateks?)

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Just thinking out loud here but they both had powerful meditation abilities, with Kaan having "normal" battle meditation and Sadow's mass of illusions (this required for him to be on his personal meditation spire). Sadow's illusions were powerful enough to actually injure people which is practically having the ability to make your own soldiers. To me, it all really comes down to whether or not Sadow has control of Korriban. If he didn't have control of Korriban, he'd need to create another area where he could meditate with just as much focus, which would take time, likely enough time so that the brotherhood of darkness could gain a few key victories over sadow's forces.

 

(Questions, is Kaan driven to the dark side yet, and when you say sith-spawn, does that include tarentateks?)

Yes this is dark side Kaan - but not loco crazy dark side Kaan. And I'm sure that Sadow used his meditation sphere over a random star, not Korriban. As for Sith war beasts, I'll check the details later but I don't remember seeing any mention of terateneks, just sith worms etc - still deadly though.

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Yes this is dark side Kaan - but not loco crazy dark side Kaan. And I'm sure that Sadow used his meditation sphere over a random star, not Korriban. As for Sith war beasts, I'll check the details later but I don't remember seeing any mention of terateneks, just sith worms etc - still deadly though.

 

Yeah, Naga Sadow hovered near a star. If Naga Sadow can remain hidden, he could very well win this. The only reason his assault on Coruscant and other worlds failed is because his apprentice attacked him. This, in conjunction with the wisdom of such Jedi as Odan-Urr and Ooroo, caused his illusions to lose their effect. But it was his apprentice attacking him that caused his illusion to fail.

 

This should be a close one regardless.

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Yeah, Naga Sadow hovered near a star. If Naga Sadow can remain hidden, he could very well win this. The only reason his assault on Coruscant and other worlds failed is because his apprentice attacked him. This, in conjunction with the wisdom of such Jedi as Odan-Urr and Ooroo, caused his illusions to lose their effect. But it was his apprentice attacking him that caused his illusion to fail.

 

This should be a close one regardless.

 

What do you mean could? Unless Kaan knew of Sadow's ability to do that as well as a way to fight it off, Sadow has a very large advantage. (What happens beyond the first 2 times or when Kaan learns of these illusions is however, unclear to me.

 

But yes, I agree, this will be close.

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It'll likely come down to who wins the first major engagement. If Sadow wins, Kaan will fold under the pressure. The only possible salvation for Kaan if he looses the first battle is either he realizes that his enemies are mostly illusions as he retreats, or he finds Sadow's meditation sphere. If he does either of these he has a chance.

 

If Kaan wins the first battle, he stands a good chance of winning. Here, Sadow will have to hope Kaan doesn't realize his army is mostly composed of illusions. If Kaan knows, Kaan will likely win. If Kaan doesn't, still an uphill battle for Kaan and it'd be about 50-50.

 

Personally, I think Sadow would likely win the first battle and Kaan would be non the wiser of his deception making it a Sadow victory. But that first battle will be brutal for both sides.

 

As for a 1v1 duel. I don't think it'll come to that but if it does, I might give the edge to Kaan but I can't give you a good reason why.

 

Curious, can Sadow use his illusions during multiple battles at the same time? And can he rebuild an enitre army of illusions after each battle? If yes to either of these, Sadow's odds just hugely improved in my opinion.

Edited by StarSquirrel
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I would like to say that Naga Sadow can't just create supernovas. This was a special case involving an Unstable Red Super Giant star. All he needed to do was pull at it and set off a chain reaction which resulted in it going nova. It's not something he can do to any ol star.

 

And as for the Thought Bomb Ritual, it wasn't something Kaan could do on his own. It took the remaining leaders of the Dark Brotherhood (all of whom Kaan said were on Equal standing as Lords), as well as all their remaining followers in order to create it. Though it did kill the Hundred odd Jedi that came to stop him and drove the local force sensitive creatures mad, it was also a Suicide Move in that Kaan and all of the Dark Brotherhood were killed as well when it was activated. It has the potential to affect everything on a planetary scale, but Kaan and his group just didn't have that kind of power, and while Darth Bane felt the effects of it, he was relatively unharmed by it.

 

As for mental prowess. Kaan could use his Battle Meditation via a Meditation Chamber to bolster his forces in his Fleet. However he had difficulty as he wasn't as adept at using this ability as others in the Jedi Order and would've lost in a fleet battle had Kas'im not boarded the Republic ship and killed the Jedi Sage whom Kaan was locked against in a battle of wills. As far as I am aware from the novels, Kaan's Battle Meditation seemed to function within a limited range. Naga Sadow's, however, was affecting multiple battle groups spread across multiple different worlds within Republic Space at the same time. This gives Sadow a greater range of effect and a definite advantage in battle.

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As for a 1v1 duel. I don't think it'll come to that but if it does, I might give the edge to Kaan but I can't give you a good reason why.

IMO I think Naga Sadow would win a 1v1 duel. While Kaan is by no means weak, his powers lie in mind tricks.

Curious, can Sadow use his illusions during multiple battles at the same time? And can he rebuild an enitre army of illusions after each battle? If yes to either of these, Sadow's odds just hugely improved in my opinion.
Aurbere is probably the person to answer this one. I expect he can 'rebuild' his illusions again though.
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Kaan really didn't have some large empire and, as stated, he did not control it all himself. Because of the manner in which he had built the Sith Order, anyone with the title of Lord was equal in standing to himself. And while he may be considered the ring leader and the one with the most charisma of the group, he would still only command a part of the Brotherhood and not the whole of their forces.

 

As for Naga Sadow. At the time, half of the Dark Council agreed with him and followed him as the "Dark Lord of the Sith", with Ludo Kressh and the other half claiming differently. Sadow commanded a large force as well as his Massasi warriors and he was a powerful Sorcerer as well as skilled in melee combat. At the time, Sadow and Kressh were the two most powerful Sith under Marka Ragnos (perhaps beside Vitiate), though I guess that isn't saying much when Ragnos was so flippin powerful they were all terrified of him, even up to the point of him dying of old age (Ragnos seemingly choosing not to extend his life via dark arts like Sadow did).

 

In terms of power, knowledge and ability, it's clear Naga Sadow stands head and shoulders above Kaan in this respect. In terms of armies, I would say that perhaps Kaans is a bit larger. However at the time of the Great Hyperspace War, Sadow's army was smaller than the Republic's, but still caused considerable damage due to his mass illusions and made his invading forces appear three-times more numerous than they actually were.

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Aurbere is probably the person to answer this one. I expect he can 'rebuild' his illusions again though.

 

Naga Sadow orchestrated multiple battles simultaneously using his illusions and Battle Meditation. When his apprentice attacked his meditation sphere, he lost concentration, which led to the Republic making a swift counterstrike that utterly crushed Sadow's forces. Take in mind that he was also fighting Ludo Kressh's followers at the same time.

 

"Here in my Meditation Chamber I can see the galaxy in my mind's eye... I can visualize vast armies, powerful fleets, invincible warriors... and with Sith arts, my imagination can make them real."

 

In short, Sadow can produce real forces just by imagining them. These illusions are actually capable of doing real damage to enemy troops. Unless Kaan can find Sadow's sphere, he will lose. I consider Naga Sadow something akin to an Infinite Empire, if you catch my drift. He can create a limitless supply of soldiers, fleets, anything.

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Naga Sadow orchestrated multiple battles simultaneously using his illusions and Battle Meditation. When his apprentice attacked his meditation sphere, he lost concentration, which led to the Republic making a swift counterstrike that utterly crushed Sadow's forces. Take in mind that he was also fighting Ludo Kressh's followers at the same time.

 

"Here in my Meditation Chamber I can see the galaxy in my mind's eye... I can visualize vast armies, powerful fleets, invincible warriors... and with Sith arts, my imagination can make them real."

 

In short, Sadow can produce real forces just by imagining them. These illusions are actually capable of doing real damage to enemy troops. Unless Kaan can find Sadow's sphere, he will lose. I consider Naga Sadow something akin to an Infinite Empire, if you catch my drift. He can create a limitless supply of soldiers, fleets, anything.

Thanks Aurbere ;) I think that could win this for Sadow...

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I know next to nothing about either of these two, but I do have a question.

 

How much of an advantage does Battle Meditation give your troops?

 

Even with Sadow's illusion things, would Kaan's battle meditation enable his troops to win? From what I have seen of Battle Meditation (KOTOR) it is able of aiding small fleets to destroy much larger forces. (See Republic w/ Bastila Shaan vs. Star Forge)

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Sadows Illusions > Battle Meditation

 

Imo, kotor inflated battle meditation a bit. All it really does if inspire and give your allies confidence while reducing your enemies' confidence and morale.

 

From what I can see, I give my win to Sadow. Kaan's brotherhood would, IMO, eventually lead to a complete strife for power and civil war by some ambitious sith, but Sadow's faction is held together because they believe him to be the rightful ruler to the throne, so it's more stable.

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Kaan's brotherhood would, IMO, eventually lead to a complete strife for power and civil war by some ambitious sith, but Sadow's faction is held together because they believe him to be the rightful ruler to the throne, so it's more stable.

 

Well, minus Sadow's apprentice and Ludo Kressh and his followers. Remeber, the apprentice tried to turn Sadow over to the republic while Ludo Kressh attacked a retreating Sadow with a second sith fleet that could have been used instead to fight the Republic or at least allowed for a fighting retreat that kept a larger fleet intact. Sith by nature are traitors and power hungry. The only sith who recognized Sadow as ruler where the traditionalists, the weak, and the sith who sought power working with him instead of Kressh.

 

I agree with everything you said I just wanted to clarify this.

Edited by StarSquirrel
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Frow Wookiepedia, http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_meditation

 

Battle Meditation:

 

"Battle meditation was a Force ability which considerably boosted the morale, stamina, and overall battle prowess of an individual's allies while simultaneously reducing the opposition's combat-effectiveness by eroding their will to fight. With the Force, one could coordinate entire fleets of ships, allowing them to perform at maximum efficiency, acting as a single entity with the ability to counter every enemy move quickly and effectively. Though ideal for meditating large-scale conflicts, battle meditation was equally effective when employed for the benefit of one's comrades in small skirmishes, attacks, and duels."

 

I remember from "Darth Bane: Rule of Two" that the Ithorian using battle meditation aided the Jedi Masters in their fight, making them faster, stronger, and yes, more confident. I still think that battle meditation would give Kaan the edge, even with Sadow's illusions.

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Frow Wookiepedia, http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_meditation

 

Battle Meditation:

 

"Battle meditation was a Force ability which considerably boosted the morale, stamina, and overall battle prowess of an individual's allies while simultaneously reducing the opposition's combat-effectiveness by eroding their will to fight. With the Force, one could coordinate entire fleets of ships, allowing them to perform at maximum efficiency, acting as a single entity with the ability to counter every enemy move quickly and effectively. Though ideal for meditating large-scale conflicts, battle meditation was equally effective when employed for the benefit of one's comrades in small skirmishes, attacks, and duels."

 

I remember from "Darth Bane: Rule of Two" that the Ithorian using battle meditation aided the Jedi Masters in their fight, making them faster, stronger, and yes, more confident. I still think that battle meditation would give Kaan the edge, even with Sadow's illusions.

 

I don't think Battle Meditation affects illusions. He would have to actively engage Sadow in a war of wills to do so. If he did, Kaan would lose. Sadow's will allowed him to visualize the galaxy and create massive illusions on a galactic scale, affecting several battles. Kaan had difficulty contending with a Jedi's will.

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How would Massassi warriors fare against Kaan's army?

 

That's a good question. I think they would do pretty good, but Kaan's army has the advantage until they get close. We've seen the Massassi do some damage against the Jedi Order.

 

Overall, I think Naga Sadow's illusions will win this one. They may be illusions, but they cause actual damage against their foes. And Naga Sadow can create a limitless supply of them. The only way Kaan can beat Sadow's illusions is if he attacks Sadow himself. In this scenario, Sadow's location would be known only to himself since Gav Daragon is not in the picture.

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Overall, I think Naga Sadow's illusions will win this one. They may be illusions, but they cause actual damage against their foes. And Naga Sadow can create a limitless supply of them.

 

This is why I was trying to argue the Battle Meditation point. :p

 

I'm still skeptical about the illusions. What are their limitations?

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This is why I was trying to argue the Battle Meditation point. :p

 

I'm still skeptical about the illusions. What are their limitations?

 

Limitations? None that I know of. Naga Sadow could create what ever he could imagine. Concealed within his meditation sphere, Naga Sadow could envision the entire galaxy. He could create vast fleets, powerful armies, and unstoppable warriors. The illusions themselves are only limited by Naga Sadow's imagination. This is how he was able to wage war on the Republic with but a small army. He created illusions on several worlds simultaneously, even Coruscant and the Jedi Order wasn't safe. If not for Gav Daragon, Naga Sadow could have conquered the galaxy.

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Limitations? None that I know of.

 

Ok, this made me question these illusions enough to go off and do my own research.

 

There is no evidence that these illusions are good warriors.

 

The only indication of their power is this quote from Wookieepedia:

"Sadow formed great illusions on the battlefields of Koros Major, Coruscant and Kirrek, creating mirages of war beasts and Massassi troops, weakening the resolve in his Jedi and Republic opponents, as well as those planets' civilians."

 

Resolve? Sounds like a real threat....

 

If these illusions are created by Sadow, he must need to control them. Controlling "limitless" illusions would mean they weren't effective at all. Just because they CAN harm Republic troops does not mean they actually did to a great extent. Instead, they probably just looked scary in the background.

 

Basically, while these beasts could touch troops, there is no way Sadow could control them with such finess as to make each and every one a skilled warrior. The ILLUSION of being outnumbered by sith forces may have hurt the resolve of the Jedi, but that does not mean his imaginary armies would have been able to actually defeat the Republic troops in combat.

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Ok, this made me question these illusions enough to go off and do my own research.

 

There is no evidence that these illusions are good warriors.

 

The only indication of their power is this quote from Wookieepedia:

"Sadow formed great illusions on the battlefields of Koros Major, Coruscant and Kirrek, creating mirages of war beasts and Massassi troops, weakening the resolve in his Jedi and Republic opponents, as well as those planets' civilians."

 

Resolve? Sounds like a real threat....

 

If these illusions are created by Sadow, he must need to control them. Controlling "limitless" illusions would mean they weren't effective at all. Just because they CAN harm Republic troops does not mean they actually did to a great extent. Instead, they probably just looked scary in the background.

 

Basically, while these beasts could touch troops, there is no way Sadow could control them with such finess as to make each and every one a skilled warrior. The ILLUSION of being outnumbered by sith forces may have hurt the resolve of the Jedi, but that does not mean his imaginary armies would have been able to actually defeat the Republic troops in combat.

 

Very true. However, your speech is filled with "maybe" and "perhaps" (Kreia reference lol :))

 

Do not forget that the Jedi were being beaten until Sadow's concentration was broken. In the short war that was The Great Hyperspace War, Naga Sadow was winning. It wasn't until Gav Daragon attacked Naga Sadow's meditation sphere that the Jedi and the Republic swept Naga Sadow's forces aside and gained victory.

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Very true. However, your speech is filled with "maybe" and "perhaps" (Kreia reference lol :))

 

Do not forget that the Jedi were being beaten until Sadow's concentration was broken. In the short war that was The Great Hyperspace War, Naga Sadow was winning. It wasn't until Gav Daragon attacked Naga Sadow's meditation sphere that the Jedi and the Republic swept Naga Sadow's forces aside and gained victory.

 

Well yes, of course I'm speaking in "maybe"s, seeing as I have no real proof to point to and say AH HA! but only wookieepedia.

 

Question: Was Sadow really winning? Or did it just LOOK like he was winning due to the illusions?

 

What was the Republic's casualty count?

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Well yes, of course I'm speaking in "maybe"s, seeing as I have no real proof to point to and say AH HA! but only wookieepedia.

 

Question: Was Sadow really winning? Or did it just LOOK like he was winning due to the illusions?

 

What was the Republic's casualty count?

 

Sadow was pretty much winning. Was him winning just an illusion? Perhaps. I don't think so. Normally an illusion will do no damage, but Naga Sadow had enhanced his illusions with Sith magic, turning them into real soldiers.

 

But was he really winning? His forces had been pushing the Republic around quite a bit. During the initial invasion, the Republic took some heavy casualties. The illusions gave the sense that he was winning. In every battle, the illusions were doing most of the legwork. Naga Sadow had a small army at his command. Not a lot of Sith warriors and beasts, so the illusions made up the majority of his forces. I think he was winning, but the scale at which he was winning is not that large. He would have won eventually, but he probably would have suffered the loss of a majority of his living soldiers.

 

Edit: Yes Naga Sadow was winning. Particularly in the Battle of Coruscant. His illusions had forced the Jedi and Republic forces back several times. All hope was lost until his illusions suddenly faded. Once the illusions vanished, the Republic wiped out Sadow's forces.

Edited by Aurbere
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