There is constant discussion about how overpowered scoundrel/operative healers are, especially with a competent tank guarding them. There is also a lot of discussion about field respec being removed to prevent classes from switching to tank/heals once an objective has been met (2 nodes on civil war, defending on voidstar, etc.)

 

I have never been a fan of nerfing classes only to buff them later. The best way to combat this appearance of overpoweredness is to create a soft/hard counter to healing and guarding. As many people have mentioned, some ways to counter this is too pull the guarded target out of guard range, cc other healers, have amazing focus. The reality is that, in theory these are great ideas, but in practice hardly ever work.

 

A. HOT Purge Ability

 

What really gives the scoundrel an edge over other healers is the spammable slow-release medpack. Instead of nerfing the scoundrel, give other classes the ability to purge this ability.

 

Imagine field aid (the commando cleanse of two negative physical/tech effects on a friendly) being adapted to remove 1-2 heals over time on an enemy target. This allows skilled players to counter the OP factor of slow release medpack which allows scoundrels to heal their entire team while even stunned. I firmly believe that this would even the playing field among scoundrel healers while also giving the Commando a much needed Utility buff. This could also be used by the sage on their cleanse.

 

I suggest the Sage and Commando because the Sentinel and Gunslinger already have trauma reducing heals received. Sage and Commando are arguably the weakest classes in ranked atm, and this gives them some added utility in pvp situations.

 

B. Guard Debuff

 

A guarded target redirects 50% of all dmg to the tank, whereby it can be mitigated by the tank's stats. This means that to kill a scoundrel with 30k hp, you need to inflict 60k dmg. This alone creates situations in ranked where guarded targets are impossible to kill. Additionally, with how mobile guardian tanks are (force leap/guardian leap) it is unlikely that you can effectively pull the tank out of range of the guard. This is why I suggest the following.

 

The premise is to change Electro net so that it not only stops movement abilities/stealth but prevents a target from being guarded. With this change, BW could justify the obscenely long cool down on electro net (1 minute and 30 seconds). In a 1v1 duel, this changes nothing. In PvE, this changes nothing. In PvP, it gives Commandos a much needed Utility buff and nerfs the OP factor of healers/tank stacking in ranked warzones. This is an easy change, on a preexisting ability. I know others have said that this would make electro net OP. Just keep in mind, THE COOLDOWN ON ELECTRO NET IS 1 MINUTE AND 30 SECONDS. In a ranked, you will still need to rely on your team to focus the target down and this change will not guarantee a kill.

Edited July 22, 2013 by ManiacDavis

There is constant discussion about how overpowered scoundrel/operative healers are, especially with a competent tank guarding them. There is also a lot of discussion about field respec being removed to prevent classes from switching to tank/heals once an objective has been met (2 nodes on civil war, defending on voidstar, etc.).

 

A. HOT Purge Ability

 

I have never been a fan of nerfing classes only to buff them later. The best way to combat this appearance of overpoweredness is to create a hard counter to healing and guarding. What really gives the scoundrel an edge over other healers is the spammable slow-release medpack. Instead of nerfing the scoundrel, give other classes the ability to purge this ability.

 

Imagine field aid (the commando cleanse of two negative physical/tech effects on a friendly) being adapted to remove 1-2 heals over time on an enemy target. This allows skilled players to counter the OP factor of slow release medpack which allows scoundrels to heal their entire team while even stunned. I firmly believe that this would even the playing field among scoundrel healers while also giving the Commando a much needed Utility buff. This could also be used by the sage on their cleanse.

 

I suggest the Sage and Commando because the Sentinel and Gunslinger already have trauma reducing heals received. Sage and Commando are arguably the weakest classes in ranked atm, and this gives them some added utility in pvp situations.

 

B. Guard Debuff

 

A guarded target redirects 50% of all dmg to the tank, whereby it can be mitigated by the tank's stats. This means that to kill a socundrel with 30k hp, you need to inflict 60k dmg. This alone creates situations in ranked where guarded targets are impossible to kill. Additionally, with how mobile guardian tanks are (force leap/guardian leap) it is unlikely that you can effectively pull the tank out of range of the guard. This is why I suggest the following.

 

The premise is to change Electro net so that it not only stops movement abilities/stealth but prevents a target from being guarded. With this change, BW could justify the obscenely long cool down on electro net (1 minute and 30 seconds). In a 1v1 duel, this changes nothing. In PvE, this changes nothing. In PvP, it gives Commandos a much needed Utility buff and nerfs the OP factor of healers/tank stacking in ranked warzones. This is an easy change, on a preexisting ability. I know others have said that this would make electro net OP. Just keep in mind, THE COOLDOWN ON ELECTRO NET IS 1 MINUTE AND 30 SECONDS. In a ranked, you will still need to rely on your team to focus the target down and this change will not guarantee a kill.

 

 

What I really like about your suggestions is that they would not effect pve at all, this in turn makes them much more viable. However, the purging of the guard by electronet is attractive, but the ability to purge a guard should not be restricted to one class. I like your thinking though. I would forward them to your class rep, when you get one

no...

your head is in the right place, but making a class a complete HARD counter to another class, to the point where they take them out of the equation is not the way to go.

Only way i can see this working is if this so calld cleanse is on a 20-30 cooldown. Being able to sit there and cleanse all the HoTs would break the scoundrel completely. So you need to think about this more before trying to come up with anything to make commandos into this OP class.

While we are at it, lets make it so unremitting can pierce through dodge, undying rage, and commando shield. Every class is gonna need a hard counter to another class in maniac's world.

Back to the drawingboard.

Edited July 20, 2013 by irojoz

is there a reason why you want commandos to be the god class?

no...

your head is in the right place, but making a class a complete HARD counter to another class, to the point where they take them out of the equation is not the way to go.

Only way i can see this working is if this so calld cleanse is on a 20-30 cooldown. Being able to sit there and cleanse all the HoTs would break the scoundrel completely. So you need to think about this more before trying to come up with anything to make commandos into this OP class.

While we are at it, lets make it so unremitting can pierce through dodge, undying rage, and commando shield. Every class is gonna need a hard counter to another class in maniac's world.

Back to the drawingboard.

 

Cleanse is currently on a 4.5s cooldown, I have no problem increasing it to 10-12 seconds.

Edited July 20, 2013 by ManiacDavis

is there a reason why you want commandos to be the god class?

 

1. He likely plays a Commando, at least his pic suggests he likes them.

2. Uhhh, aren't Commandos kind of lackluster right now?

3. It's on a 1.5 minute cool down, and would require coordination to be really effective.

 

I don't really think making the change to electro net would make a Commando a god class, I think it would give them a spot on ranked teams while also helping to break stalemates in VS while also make capping side nodes possible in CW (though the side speeder removal should help this). I think he gave a level approach that is a reasonable, though not OP'd, approach to dealing with what can be a very difficult team to kill in RWZ's, the aforementioned healer tank combo.

is there a reason why you want commandos to be the god class?

 

I'm not suggesting doing both. One of these suggestions would be enough to change Heal/Tank Dynamics. I also stated my reason for using the SAGE and commando class for these suggestions.

The issue with healing is that it is designed around PVE content.

 

PVE is simple. Tank takes the agro. Healers free cast. It is the easiest thing in the world to balance.

 

In PvP, this doesn't work because the PRIMARY target is the healer. Healers are essentially tanking the fight. Healing classes that rely heavily on casted abilities are naturally going to be weaker than those that do not. Operatives and Scoundrels are the least affected class because practically all of their abilities are instant cast.

 

The only solution I can think of is to ensure that the primary target is always the tank. An off the wall idea which I don't actually advocate is to make it so that guard gives healers immunity to all interrupts and pushbacks. This means that Operatives lose their advantage over the other 2 healing classes and forces players to attack the tank instead of the healer who will be utterly destroyed once the guard is gone. Heals can then take a broad healing cut via the expertise stat to cater for the fact that they cant be interupted. Unfortunately this also means that healers will need a tank queuing with them to be even remotely useful and so it's a half *** solution to a dirty problem. Something to think about anyway.

Edited July 20, 2013 by JackNader

I like this idea a lot. Good suggestion OP.

 

Perhaps make cleanse (while in Pyro/assault spec, arguably the weakest of the 3 commando/merc specs) have the HoT Purge. Keep in mind increasing the cooldown on the 6 second cleanse, will also break its true use, cleansing other people's DoTs. So you can't have cleanse on a 1min cooldown or anything crazy, IMO)

 

If you want to take this thread even crazier, you could suggest something like:

...using (only) your single-target Taunt Ability on a tank will drop that tank's guard on a friendly player for the duration of the taunt, then automatically reguarding the target after the taunt wears off.

 

This would give players a 6 second window to burst a healer, while the guard is down. Keep in mind if everyone is saving their taunts for a Tank/Healer Combo, then they also aren't using taunts on the dps that is trying to burn your team down. So its use can then be chosen tactically depending on the situation.

 

Taunts are also on a long cooldown, making this idea already pretty balanced.

Edited July 20, 2013 by SOULCASTER

No more buffs to commando for a while. That class already has one of the best DPS specs of SWTOR (gunnery), and the medic spec isn't as awful as some people claim that it is. I have a friend that I play with that routinely does well with commando medic. He's played the class for over a year, and he still plays commando medic.

 

Give an anti-guard mechanic to watchman sentinel and pyro powertech, those are two of the medic killers of SWTOR.

Edited July 20, 2013 by TheCourier-

No more buffs to commando for a while. That class already has one of the best DPS specs of SWTOR (gunnery), and the medic spec isn't as awful as some people claim that it is. I have a friend that I play with that routinely does well with commando medic. He's played the class for over a year, and he still plays commando medic.

 

Give an anti-guard mechanic to watchman sentinel and pyro powertech, those are two of the medic killers of SWTOR.

 

Commando medic does play well. Problem is the other 2 healers (more-so scoundrel) out-shine commando by a considerable margin. Which is the problem. Its not bad, no. But its not nearly as good as the others. Commando's Single-Target Healing just simply is NOT good at keeping 8 people alive at once, like sage and scoundrel is. Thats all. Its a single-target burst healer class that can be super tanky.

 

Commando just needs the action management changes that it had back near launch, with things like Supercharged Cells/Gas giving you 2 ammo back, not the 1 that it does now, etc etc, and it would be perfectly on par with the other 2 classes.

There is constant discussion about how overpowered scoundrel/operative healers are, especially with a competent tank guarding them. There is also a lot of discussion about field respec being removed to prevent classes from switching to tank/heals once an objective has been met (2 nodes on civil war, defending on voidstar, etc.).

 

So, because how the current situation is with the Scoundrel/Operative healers are you want to put the screws to Sage and Sorcerer healers because they are guarded by a competent tank? Because that is what will happen with your "suggestion to balance tank/healing."

 

I guess everyone is really put out that they cannot farm medals fast enough from the cloth wearing healers or healers in general as they were before 2.0. Now you want to put things in place so you can resume your slaughter of these healers because you are unable to kill a Scoundrel or Operative healer on your own.

 

It seems to me that the problem lies not with the classes in question, but with the player’s inability to adapt or find a way to counter the Scoundrel/Operative healers. Therefore, your answer is: nerf their guarding protection and allow their healing abilities to be purged. Good job. L2P is the real issue here, not overpowered healing, or competent tank players guarding healers.

There is constant discussion about how overpowered scoundrel/operative healers are, especially with a competent tank guarding them. There is also a lot of discussion about field respec being removed to prevent classes from switching to tank/heals once an objective has been met (2 nodes on civil war, defending on voidstar, etc.).

 

A. HOT Purge Ability

 

I have never been a fan of nerfing classes only to buff them later. The best way to combat this appearance of overpoweredness is to create a hard counter to healing and guarding. What really gives the scoundrel an edge over other healers is the spammable slow-release medpack. Instead of nerfing the scoundrel, give other classes the ability to purge this ability.

 

Imagine field aid (the commando cleanse of two negative physical/tech effects on a friendly) being adapted to remove 1-2 heals over time on an enemy target. This allows skilled players to counter the OP factor of slow release medpack which allows scoundrels to heal their entire team while even stunned. I firmly believe that this would even the playing field among scoundrel healers while also giving the Commando a much needed Utility buff. This could also be used by the sage on their cleanse.

 

I suggest the Sage and Commando because the Sentinel and Gunslinger already have trauma reducing heals received. Sage and Commando are arguably the weakest classes in ranked atm, and this gives them some added utility in pvp situations.

 

B. Guard Debuff

 

A guarded target redirects 50% of all dmg to the tank, whereby it can be mitigated by the tank's stats. This means that to kill a socundrel with 30k hp, you need to inflict 60k dmg. This alone creates situations in ranked where guarded targets are impossible to kill. Additionally, with how mobile guardian tanks are (force leap/guardian leap) it is unlikely that you can effectively pull the tank out of range of the guard. This is why I suggest the following.

 

The premise is to change Electro net so that it not only stops movement abilities/stealth but prevents a target from being guarded. With this change, BW could justify the obscenely long cool down on electro net (1 minute and 30 seconds). In a 1v1 duel, this changes nothing. In PvE, this changes nothing. In PvP, it gives Commandos a much needed Utility buff and nerfs the OP factor of healers/tank stacking in ranked warzones. This is an easy change, on a preexisting ability. I know others have said that this would make electro net OP. Just keep in mind, THE COOLDOWN ON ELECTRO NET IS 1 MINUTE AND 30 SECONDS. In a ranked, you will still need to rely on your team to focus the target down and this change will not guarantee a kill.

 

1. your hot purge ability is stupid, sorry. the scoundrel can just recast hots all day all night without worrying about energy. the sage/commando would lose more dps spamming this ability off cd to try and keep up without inflicting any real damage. the problem IS the scoundrels: they need an energy nerf, after that they may be fine.

 

2. sages and mercs are definitely more viable than all pt specs, fyi.

 

3. if you gave only commandos the guard debuff you arent fixing anything at all. the issue with heals/tanking is that it is universal and constant. little spikes in dps on one healer will get you a kill, maybe...but only one, maybe.

 

there isnt a hard counter to implement that can fix this. it needs to be a change to the meta of the game itself, not abilities that try and stall the heals/guard combo. rateds would still feel defensivy and not fun even if these were implemented. not sure how to fix this huge issue except by nerfing scoundrel energy, which alone wouldnt fix it, but i dont have any other ideas.

So, because how the current situation is with the Scoundrel/Operative healers are you want to put the screws to Sage and Sorcerer healers because they are guarded by a competent tank? Because that is what will happen with your "suggestion to balance tank/healing."

 

I guess everyone is really put out that they cannot farm medals fast enough from the cloth wearing healers or healers in general as they were before 2.0. Now you want to put things in place so you can resume your slaughter of these healers because you are unable to kill a Scoundrel or Operative healer on your own.

 

It seems to me that the problem lies not with the classes in question, but with the player’s inability to adapt or find a way to counter the Scoundrel/Operative healers. Therefore, your answer is: nerf their guarding protection and allow their healing abilities to be purged. Good job. L2P is the real issue here, not overpowered healing, or competent tank players guarding healers.

 

you need a brain

L2P is the real issue here.

 

Congrats on being the first one to start the famous L2P. Lets just assume everyone posting is a competent player who has ranked experience before questioning another players ability to play the game.

 

On to your argument that this would nerf sage healing. Sages derive most of their heals from casted abilities or the AOE heals. None of which would be effected by the suggested purge ability. The suggested guard debuff would inhibit all Healers. If anything, the Sage Immunity bubble is the best counter to this. For example, commando electro-nets sage, sage uses CC breaker, Sage bubbles, by the time the bubble is down so is electro net and the sage can be guarded again.

no...

your head is in the right place, but making a class a complete HARD counter to another class, to the point where they take them out of the equation is not the way to go.

I agree with this. I wouldn't be against an offensive purge on a longish cooldown, but give it to more than one AC (and don't give it to Gunslingers|Snipers or Sentinels|Marauders, they've got Trauma). Other things that could be done are for example buffing Trauma applied by Flourish Shot|Shatter Shot and Crippling Throw|Deadly Throw and perhaps adjusting Guard by either tweaking the amount of damage redirected (make it 45 or 40%), the range requirement or giving it a short cooldown).

Edited July 20, 2013 by Gondolindhrim

So, because how the current situation is with the Scoundrel/Operative healers are you want to put the screws to Sage and Sorcerer healers because they are guarded by a competent tank? Because that is what will happen with your "suggestion to balance tank/healing."

 

I guess everyone is really put out that they cannot farm medals fast enough from the cloth wearing healers or healers in general as they were before 2.0. Now you want to put things in place so you can resume your slaughter of these healers because you are unable to kill a Scoundrel or Operative healer on your own.

 

It seems to me that the problem lies not with the classes in question, but with the player’s inability to adapt or find a way to counter the Scoundrel/Operative healers. Therefore, your answer is: nerf their guarding protection and allow their healing abilities to be purged. Good job. L2P is the real issue here, not overpowered healing, or competent tank players guarding healers.

 

Jesus bro i have scoundrel healer myself, but cant stand these anwsers like "l2p". If u don't see the problem with this boring tank + healer meta game and your only solution is l2p, maybe just don't say anything. I have a scoundrel healer and i must say that the most fun wzs are those, where i'm the only healer on my team. This meta is simply boring, and don't tell me about skill, when half the team are healers and tanks You wont be able to kill anything with single target dps

Edited July 20, 2013 by szczypaczek

Give something to powertech/VGs as far as a healing debuff maybe.

 

Other than that, on my Gunslinger, I have been having fun today just switching to DF. Never would have thought it would add so much pressure. A lot of the healers when focused run back to the back of the pack to try to get away and it seems the DOTs keep them moving and give them at least something else to worry about. I realize good healers who do ranked probably will be less effected, but its something.

 

That said, buff maddness in the upper tiers. That will give another healer harasser.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Technohic

So, because how the current situation is with the Scoundrel/Operative healers are you want to put the screws to Sage and Sorcerer healers because they are guarded by a competent tank? Because that is what will happen with your "suggestion to balance tank/healing."

 

I guess everyone is really put out that they cannot farm medals fast enough from the cloth wearing healers or healers in general as they were before 2.0. Now you want to put things in place so you can resume your slaughter of these healers because you are unable to kill a Scoundrel or Operative healer on your own.

 

It seems to me that the problem lies not with the classes in question, but with the player’s inability to adapt or find a way to counter the Scoundrel/Operative healers. Therefore, your answer is: nerf their guarding protection and allow their healing abilities to be purged. Good job. L2P is the real issue here, not overpowered healing, or competent tank players guarding healers.

 

No, the problem here is that the class with the lowest risk (op) has the highest rewards.

 

In a balanced scenario, high risk should = high reward. So if you have a sage casting heals, he should (if left uninterrupted) dominate the healing ACs. He has to position properly, move away from enemies, and likely needs a guard and peels to succeed.

Operatives should be at the bottom, because most of their heals are instant, and should heal for less because there is near zero risk involved. Operatives have no positioning worries, if they screw up they can ROLL ROLL away, or stealth out quickly.

Mercs are somewhere in the middle, but I don't know exactly where because I rarely see one.

The reasons Opscounds heal so much is because of their HoT capabilities just like a Lethality/Madness tree, they will pump out incredible DPS/HPS, but focused burst and control of the Opscound healer will negate his performance to heal his teammates. Take note of his Tactical Advantage, once that runs out he will NOT be able to cast Surgical Probe (Spam heal as most call it). In order to defeat an Opscound, you really need to control his Tactical Advantages. CC him, push him AWAY from the fight. Yes, he can roll, but there's energy to take notice of. I admit, at the moment it's ridiculously easy, pre2.0 we were in a good state. Now with the tools we have to get our Tactical Advantage is what makes us overpowered (according to some). Considering the dps capabilities of some classes it's arguable whether it's a L2P issue or really a balance issue. Good arguments can be made from both parties.

 

You all say a competent healer/tank is unkillable, but a competent DPS force is capable of eventually killing the healer, and then the tank, people just don't always know how to counter an Opscound healer, or how it works.

 

P.S: I did not read the entire thread. I just posted my opinion. If you do nerf heals, please buff DPS. My 2 cents

Edited July 20, 2013 by JohnElias

... Commando's Single-Target Healing just simply is NOT good at keeping 8 people alive at once, like sage and scoundrel is ....

 

The question here is rather whether one single healer should at all be able to keep 8 people alive. At the end it's not the commando healer who needs a buff, but the other two who need a nerf. The sorc a little one and the operative... well, the operative is a joke in PvP, he'd probably need a complete new design rather than only a massive nerf.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Cretinus

You all say a competent healer/tank is unkillable, but a competent DPS force is capable of eventually killing the healer, and then the tank, people just don't always know how to counter an Opscound healer, or how it works.

 

If multiple DPS hit their burst nearly simultaneously (ie. under a second) with multiple high crits before they can react, it doesn't matter what class they are, they are dead. There is no surviving that kind of damage unless you telegraph who you're about to attack or the healer/tank happened to intervene at just the right second (e.g. stunning one of the attackers right before the brunt of the damage).

 

The question here is rather whether one single healer should at all be able to keep 8 people alive. At the end it's not the commando healer who needs a buff, but the other two who need a nerf. The sorc a little one and the operative... well, the operative is a joke in PvP, he'd probably need a complete new design rather than only a massive nerf.

 

This is something that has distinctly happened since 2.0 -- there is much more frequency in solo-healing warzones. I do it at once or twice a day, and I'm a Combat Medic, ie. the class with the worst chance to solo heal a warzone.

 

As for nerfing the other healers, Sage I think are in a fair place. They are healing glass cannons and suitably they can also put up stupid high numbers. I won't be putting money on it, but Scoundrel is due at the very least an energy resource nerf. The question really is how much further they go -- when it comes to class balance, Bioware either 1) overkill nerfs a class or 2) buffs the class for no apparent reason. For all we know Scoundrel will have Electro Net and Rescue in 2.4.

Edited July 20, 2013 by SpaniardInfinity

IThe question really is how much further they go -- when it comes to class balance, Bioware either 1) overkill nerfs a class or 2) buffs the class for no apparent reason. For all we know Scoundrel will have Electro Net and Rescue in 2.4.

 

ha! I lul'd heartily. <3 Aux. where are you playing these days?

I'm mostly a Concealment Operative, but I do heal on rare occasions and excel at it. The one thing that needs to be looked at for the Operative healer is the way Tactical Advantage (TA) procs, in its current state, and pre2.0, an Opscound healer could have an endless proc of TA by putting a Kolto Probe on EVERY teammate, this HoT will help support the ENTIRE team, as well as INCREASE our chance to get a Surgical Probe (which can crit for over 4K for me [Min/Maxed Op]). I admit, it's a little unfair that one healer can support an entire team like that. I've done it multiple times in Warzones since I am the only healer every once in a while. It is ridiculous, but it's the truth at the moment. This TA proc will then let me Surgical probe teammates as they take damage, not to mention flipping from teammate to teammate who is below 30% and keeping them up. It's definitely not a nerf that we need, but a complete relook at the way TA procs, imo. I don't want to see my class nerfed, but I admit it is extremely effective right now.

There is no solution to fix this combo while Bolster is in place because players will find ways to boost max stats through this failed system.

 

This is the hole reason why progression PvP works, it keeps people from exploiting PvP at end game and keeps a check and balance on classes through progression.

 

This is the reason why healers run rampant with tanks and DPS lacks so bad in this game.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Asturias