It might be easier (and cheaper) if instead of swapping mods to aim evertime you went marksmen, you instead used an Exotech Aim stim

Sure we can do that too, it's easier to just change aim/cunning (and it gives us approximatly 12-14% aim so perfect) =) but i want a little bit critical points more in 2/16/23 spec so i have 2 pieces of my stuff i change when i respec, with critical and with cunning (and for that 2 pieces for my 31/5/5 spec, power and aim for sure) =)

Sure we can do that too, it's easier to just change aim/cunning (and it gives us approximatly 12-14% aim so perfect) =) but i want a little bit critical points more in 2/16/23 spec so i have 2 pieces of my stuff i change when i respec, with critical and with cunning (and for that 2 pieces for my 31/5/5 spec, power and aim for sure) =)

If you're using aim, you're doing less damage than you could be if you used cunning instead.

As a well-played MM Sniper/SS Gunslinger, we will have about 20% of our damage come from tech attacks which gain absolutely no benefit from aim:

• Orbital Strike/XS Freighter Flyby
  
• Corrosive Dart/Vital Shot
  
• Explosive Probe/Sabotage Charge

Each of these abilities deal more damage than Snipe/Charged Burst, and when they will do their full damage, should be prioritized over Snipe/Charged Burst whenever we don't need it for Followthrough/Trick Shot.

Together with the fact that aim is not boosted by Gearhead/Streetwise as cunning is, that means cunning beats aim for all attainable gear levels.

It's true that the crit chance gained from cunning suffers from diminishing returns (at 2500 cunning we've dropped from 0.0081% per point to 0.0041%); however, compared to the bonus damage we also get from cunning, the crit chance is relatively small -- small enough that its DR doesn't outweigh the benefits we get to cunning and not to aim.

If you'd like to see the math on this, it's available at the link in my signature below.

Hi Tibbel, i ever read this compendium on mmo-mechanics, it's not bad, but not completed for reasons like aim like i said

And if you do 20% of tech damage in SS/MM spec, i think it's because there is a problem in your rotation, for me, i do 2k dps on 5min or more on the ops dummy in that 31/5/5 spec and i do approximatly 9% of tech damage, it's very different than your 20% and so without tech damage yes like i said, the best ratio would be approximatly 83% cunning for 17% aim, but with that 9% tech damage, it's approximatly 86% for 14%

And so, the "explosive probe"/"sabotage charge" is useless in MM/SS (in 31/7/3 spec too), ok a little bit more than the "snipe"/"charged burst", but less than the "corrosive dart"/"vital shot" on a boss target for the same GCD (just an exception if the target will die in less than 15sec because "corrosive dart"/"vital shot" is a dot for sure but the "takedown" is also better in the end of life of your target)

But if you use your CD perfectly of your best shots ("orbital strike"/"XS freighter flyby", "followtrough"/"trick shot", "ambush", "series of shots") you don't have to use this "corrosive dart"/"vital shot" many time because you have to anticipate the CD of "followtrough"/"trick shot" with "snipe"/"charged burst" like you said, and never after 30% of the life of the boss because you have to add the CD of "takedown" too

But if you use your CD perfectly of your best shots ("orbital strike"/"XS freighter flyby", "followtrough"/"trick shot", "ambush", "series of shots") you don't have to use this "corrosive dart"/"vital shot" many time because you have to anticipate the CD of "followtrough"/"trick shot" with "snipe"/"charged burst" like you said, and never after 30% of the life of the boss because you have to add the CD of "takedown" too

Over the course of a 6-minute fight, we have 2534 energy to spend, assuming we stay above 60% the whole time:

• 360 seconds of regen, assuming we spend 60s out of cover: +2100 energy
  
• 3× Adrenaline Probe: +150 energy
  
• 8× Sniper Volley: +240 energy
  
• 110 starting energy × 40% top energy bracket: +44 energy

If we use FT, SoS, Ambush, OS, and TD as often as we can, we'll use:

• FT every 6 seconds = 60× 6 energy
  
• SoS 4 times every 51 seconds (with SV) = 29× 20 energy
  
• Ambush every 18 seconds (otherwise it interferes with FT) = 20× 15 energy
  
• Takedown every 15s for the last 108s of the fight = 9× 15 energy
  
• OS every 45s = 8× 30 energy
  
• Snipe for every FT minus the number of Ambushes and Takedowns = 31× 20 energy

This costs a total of 2235 energy, leaving us with 299 more to spend. That's about enough to use CD or EP 15 times over those 6 minutes, or once every 24 seconds. If we use Snipe in those situations instead, we're doing less damage than we could be.

Throw in 36 Rifle Shots to fill up the remaining 54 seconds, and we have a total of 208 ability uses, 23 of which are OS or CD.

In my gear, OS hits for 2500 per tick and CD hits for 515 per tick (on average, including crits).

With the above ability breakdown and without the 2-pc PvP bonus, I'll get 24 OS ticks and 75 CD ticks, for a total of 98625 damage over 360 seconds, or 274 DPS. Even if I did 2000 total DPS (I don't, at least against a single target), that'd be 14% of my damage coming from tech attacks.

Now, taking into account that there are times when we must move and don't have the option to use SoS or Ambush (which is more likely to be due than OS), we'll substitute in CD or EP to still contribute damage without capping on energy. In addition, the vast majority of our AoE DPS comes from OS and Frag Grenade, which are also both tech attacks.

I encourage anyone who's interested in their personal results to use the spreadsheet linked in my signature. It has the functionality to go through and see how much DPS would be gained by independently adding +1 in each of the stats and comparing the results. In every realistic simulation I've seen, aim has been at least 25% weaker than cunning overall.

First, i must say It's funny like your 20% becomes 14% in one night =P

And ok, i see where is your mistake, i explain

I think you know the GCD in SWToR is 1.5sec, but, and there is a big "but", when you cast a spell, there isn't any GCD, so every cast with a cast under 1.5sec helps you to do more APM (action per minute) ==> "charged burst"/"snipe" is 1.44sec in 31/5/5 spec and "ambush" is 1.44sec too if you use it well in that 31/5/5 spec, and more during the "sniper volley", 1.29sec for the 1st and 1.29sec for the 2nd too.

And so when you use a "vital shot"/"corrosive dart" or a "explosive probe"/"sabotage charge" the GCD will be everytime 1.5sec

And with that time saved, you can use (if you have to recuperate your energy for the worst case) more "rifle shots" and so do more dps than if you use "corrosive dart"/"vital shot" or "explosive probe"/"sabotage charge" to spend your energy, mainly during the "sniper volley" for sure

First, i must say It's funny like your 20% becomes 14% in one night =P

Yeah, I admit 20% was a bit high. I was just throwing out an estimate, which is why I wanted to go through and come up with a more realistic number.

I think you know the GCD in SWToR is 1.5sec, but, and there is a big "but", when you cast a spell, there isn't any GCD, so every cast with a cast under 1.5sec helps you to do more APM (action per minute) ==> "charged burst"/"snipe" is 1.44sec in 31/5/5 spec and "ambush" is 1.44sec too if you use it well in that 31/5/5 spec, and more during the "sniper volley", 1.29sec for the 1st and 1.29sec for the 2nd too.

 

And so when you use a "vital shot"/"corrosive dart" or a "explosive probe"/"sabotage charge" the GCD will be everytime 1.5sec

 

And with that time saved, you can use (if you have to recuperate your energy for the worst case) more "rifle shots" and so do more dps than if you use "corrosive dart"/"vital shot" or "explosive probe"/"sabotage charge" to spend your energy, mainly during the "sniper volley" for sure

It's true that abilities with activation times don't respect the 1.5s GCD, but that still doesn't necessarily help us gain any APM, mainly due to the importance of Followthrough and its 6-second cooldown.

During a common sequence:

1.5s [FT] + 2.88 [soS] + 1.44 [Ambush or Snipe] = 5.82s

or with SV active:

1.5s [FT] + 2.58s [soS] + 1.29s [Ambush or Snipe] = 5.37s

There's no time to do anything else during that fraction of a second before FT comes off CD. We could delay the next FT, but that almost always results in a loss of net DPS. Rifle Shot does so little damage compared to all our other abilities that it's just not worth it.

This is why alacrity is worth so little for MM snipers. It just doesn't help us very much compared to surge or accuracy.

This is why alacrity is worth so little for MM snipers. It just doesn't help us very much compared to surge or accuracy.

The debate is not between alacrity and surge/accuracy, i agree with you when you say accuray/surge is clearly better than alacrity in stats, but here we speak about the 2 points of talent : 4% alacrity or +10% on aoe damages and "sabotage charge"

And for bosses like the Writting horror where you have to aoe, why not (i prefer the 2/16/23 spec for him)

But the 10% for the "sabotage charge" is for me useless, yes it's a little bit better to use it than "snipe" when you have all CDs down and you don't have to use a "snipe" to do your next "followtrough" every 6sec, but the "corrosive dart"/"vital shot" is better than the "sabotage charge" (without if you want to do that spells more than one time per 15sec because it's a 15sec dot for sure, but with differents others CDs and our energy regeneration, it would be a wastage of dps)

And yes i agree we have to do sometimes this "corrosive dart", there is no debate on that but not for 20% of damages when we add the damages of "orbital strike" and "corrosive dart", and 14% is for me a little bit high too (even with the PvP set) if we use the CDs of "followtrough", "series of shot", "ambush" and "takedown" well and if we don't have infinite energy

And for the aim, we have to calculate the wastage of dps on this 9% (for me, ok i accept to up to 11% with the PvP set, but we can reread our debate on that and so we lose on our takedown), 14% (for you) yes, but we have to calculate the up for the others shot (86% or 89-91% of damages) too and so if it's gainful or not on one target

This costs a total of 2235 energy, leaving us with 299 more to spend. That's about enough to use CD or EP 15 times over those 6 minutes, or once every 24 seconds. If we use Snipe in those situations instead, we're doing less damage than we could be.

You can't use "corrosive dart" every 24sec, just because of others CDs, the 6 i spoke before (ambush, followtrough, series of shot, orbital strike, takedown and the armor debuff are priorities) you can't time that, you just do that when you're high in energy and you have all your CDs down, the debuff on the target, and when you don't have to do a "snipe" to have your FT every 6sec

And more, where is the armor debuff in your calculate? (on 6min, we have to do that 8 times for the less, and so 80 energies alone on the dummy) Or it's because you speak in operation condition with armor debuff of other guys? But in that conditions, on many bosses we can say many things on the OS whitch must have an immobile boss for a single target.

That is why, for every that reasons, 14% is to high

Don't laugh

NiM EC

Zorn and Toth: Lethality/Eng

Firebrand and Stormcaller: Lethality/Eng

Colonel Vorgath: Lethality/Eng

Warlord Kephess: Lethality/Eng (if on AoE little adds duty I play around with Full Engineering, if on Warrior duty I definitely go Marks)

 

HM TFB

Withering Horror: Lethality/Eng

Ciphas, Heirad, and Kel’Sara: Lethality/Eng

Operator IX: Lethality/Eng

Kephess the Undying: Lethality/Eng even on distortion duty

The Terror from Beyond: Lethality/Eng (i'm never on add duty)

 

Nightmare Pilgram: Lethality/Eng

Dreadtooth: Lethality/Eng

I am just more comfortable and personally do more DPS http://www.torparse.com/a/58891/time/1354168047/1354169129 (after parsing for what can now be a total of many hours) as Lethality compared to Marks. If you do not encounter any energy problems target swapping and can optimally DPS down the adds and return to the boss (meaning killing the adds without putting down DoTs), I think Lethality works just fine.

More often than not I find myself being able to kill adds on Phase 1 of HM TFB as Lethality by:

1) DPSing on Tentacle: CG -> CD -> WB -> (1st) Cull

2) Add pops out (swap to add): SoS -> Ambush -> (Lazed Snipe/ EP / Takedown)

3) Retarget Tentacle: (2nd) Cull or Refresh Dots and continue with rotation.

This is how I normally deal with target swapping throughout HM EC / HM TFB and NiM EC. Stick to having my DoTs and Cull on my main target -> swap to add target and use SoS / Ambush / Snipe / EP / Takedown (this usually kills any add I am on duty on in current content) -> go back to main target and continue my Cull and then refresh DoTs.

This way I am able to keep to my rotation as much as I can:

Red = main target, Green = add target (swap)

CG -> CD -> WB -> Cull -> SoS -> Ambush/EP/Lazed Snipe/Take Down -> Cull / Refresh DoTs

On NiM Warlord Kephess, Full Engineering if I am on AoE duty does massive AoE DPS.. Personally I can sustain 1800 single target as Full Engineering and this is fine for the current NiM content (with my current raid group). Just a change of pace as far as specs go

The debate is not between alacrity and surge/accuracy, i agree with you when you say accuray/surge is clearly better than alacrity in stats, but here we speak about the 2 points of talent : 4% alacrity or +10% on aoe damages and "sabotage charge"

Right, but my point is that alacrity doesn't increase our APM noticeably unless we play sub-optimally. Alacrity's biggest contribution is when we use OS, and I doubt anyone will argue that OS benefits more from Deadly Directive than from Explosive Engineering.

And for bosses like the Writting horror where you have to aoe, why not (i prefer the 2/16/23 spec for him)

But the 10% for the "sabotage charge" is for me useless, yes it's a little bit better to use it than "snipe" when you have all CDs down and you don't have to use a "snipe" to do your next "followtrough" every 6sec, but the "corrosive dart"/"vital shot" is better than the "sabotage charge" (without if you want to do that spells more than one time per 15sec because it's a 15sec dot for sure, but with differents others CDs and our energy regeneration, it would be a wastage of dps)

 

And yes i agree we have to do sometimes this "corrosive dart", there is no debate on that but not for 20% of damages when we add the damages of "orbital strike" and "corrosive dart", and 14% is for me a little bit high too (even with the PvP set) if we use the CDs of "followtrough", "series of shot", "ambush" and "takedown" well and if we don't have infinite energy

My calculations were done without the PvP set bonus. If we add that, it jumps up over 15%.

We're talking single-target steady-state DPS (i.e. just like against a dummy). Obviously, none of the operation encounters provide this opportunity for the entirety of the fight, but during each fight we strive to position ourselves such that we spend as much time in this "ideal" state as possible, so it makes sense to use that as a baseline. If we want to consider situations in which we can't use OS or CD, we should also consider the situations in which we can't use SoS or Ambush or when it's actually optimal to use OS or CD. (One example is preparing for when Operator IX's damage immunity is about to fall off -- by prepping an EP, OS, and/or CD, we can actually pre-load some damage and energy expenditure.)

[And for the aim, we have to calculate the wastage of dps on this 9% (for me, ok i accept to up to 11% with the PvP set, but we can reread our debate on that and so we lose on our takedown), 14% (for you) yes, but we have to calculate the up for the others shot (86% or 89-91% of damages) too and so if it's gainful or not on one target

Yes, and the Sniper/Gunslinger Spreadsheet takes this all into account -- set bonuses, ability usage, stats, buffs, cooldowns, number of targets, etc -- and each time I try something, it shows cunning as significantly stronger than aim, point-for-point. If you think the existing math is incorrect, I'd love to see yours.

You can't use "corrosive dart" every 24sec, just because of others CDs, the 6 i spoke before (ambush, followtrough, series of shot, orbital strike, takedown and the armor debuff are priorities) you can't time that, you just do that when you're high in energy and you have all your CDs down, the debuff on the target, and when you don't have to do a "snipe" to have your FT every 6sec

Right, agreed. I don't think that we should count to 24 and then use CD throughout the fight. What I mean is that on average, we will be using CD once per 24 seconds of fight length. There will be times when we go 40+ seconds without using it, and other times when we want to dump energy so fast that CD will still be ticking on the target when we want to use it again and so we'll use EP instead.

And more, where is the armor debuff in your calculate? (on 6min, we have to do that 8 times for the less, and so 80 energies alone on the dummy) Or it's because you speak in operation condition with armor debuff of other guys?

Yes, the assumption is that in the group is at least one arsenal mercenary (i.e. gunnery commando) or juggernaut (guardian), who typically keep the armor debuff applied at maximum strength as part of their regular rotation. If keeping the debuff active is our responsibility, then we'll have to account for 10 less energy every 45s.

By the way -- thanks for this substantive discussion. It's good to have a solid exchange of ideas like this once in a while.

By the way -- thanks for this substantive discussion. It's good to have a solid exchange of ideas like this once in a while.

In every case the same, and sorry if i seem aggressive on some sentences, it's not the goal, but i don't speak so well in english, so sorry for that

I understand just now the "assumption" for example ^^ but for me the boss with monotarget like Kephess the Undying, the Writting Horror and the Dread Gards (in TfB) are the only bosses i use the 2/16/23 because i think it's better, and for the 2 first bosses of EC, there are 2 bosses and it's uncommon when you have one mercenary/commando/guardian/juggernaut on the 2 bosses and more, like i said, for Zorn, he removes his debuff (armor debuff and dot) when he shouts (but we can make the OS just before the jump of Toth on him to touch the 2 boss on 1 tick of OS) and if we are on Toth, i prefer the 2/16/23 (and in every case, we have to be careful to don't put the OS just before the jump on Zorn)

On the 2nd boss, here, it's perhaps the only where, if we play in MM/SS we don't have to be carefull for the boss movement, but if we do a dot just before the "defense system", when we are under the shield, the dot doesn't make many damages, but ok for this boss

For the Operator 9, Tfb (in TfB) and Vorgath, Kephess (EC), where i prefer the MM/SS spec, without the P2 of TfB where i love the "corrosive dart" to make on the tentacle before to be on it, i'm not sure it's so good, perhaps on the end of Kephess/Vorgath, cores of Operator 9, tentacles in P1 of TfB and probes of Vorgath, i don't think the "corrosive dart" is good for others things, because i think the force of the MM/SS is to burst many different mono target, and on that bosses, i don't think the tech damages on that spec will be 14% or more (without Kephess because we aoe trandos, and Vorgath where we can make the OS when the 2 fast soldiers come under the probe)

And so, to conclude, Gunslingers/Snipers are the best in every case hihi ! :p

think i just beat the record on kephess 3422 dps as sharpshooter/marksman

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/combatlog/85a4d9bd-87a7-40f1-a57a-ce0fa9e6ac9c/player/1#d=0,f=28,b=1

http://www.torparse.com/a/72049/27

think i just beat the record on kephess 3422 dps as sharpshooter/marksman

Congrats and like NotRonin said, i hope Bioware doesn't look that ranking, if yes, we will be nerfed

think i just beat the record on kephess 3422 dps as sharpshooter/marksman

*speak like Gollum* i retake my precious this evening hihi :p

I did a try i little bit better than the last week on Kephess, 3k6 (and 1k9 donc the Dread Guards too, but i don't have the record on them snif snif )

http://www.torparse.com/a/72848

*speak like Gollum* i retake my precious this evening hihi :p

 

I did a try i little bit better than the last week on Kephess, 3k6 (and 1k9 donc the Dread Guards too, but i don't have the record on them snif snif )

 

http://www.torparse.com/a/72848

Wish I could have a 47% crit chance! Yeah I know the dam dots. Awesome