K I spoke to fast on that but he never did gain the rank of master , and his seat was nothing but a sham by a Sithlord trying to gain his trust and loyalty .

 

Atleast one of us can be honest !

 

Again Vadar was a Half Robot tool who eventually did nothing , it was Luke who finally brought balance to teh force, not vadar.

Many Jedi thought they were the one including Revan and none were it .

 

I respect your opinion and I won't judge you. I just don't agree with it :>

Well okay , prepare to salute me , friend :

 

Revan defeated Malak who was empowered by the forge (ya know feeding on the force , trough the dead bodies ).

 

Point given, his apprentice was being strengthened through the Star Forge. But how poweful was Malak?

 

Revan lead the republic to victory against the most powerfull warriors in star wars , the mandalorians ( i'm not speaking about force-sensitive and yes the mandos are the best warriors in the galaxy , i don't think i need to prove myself ) while having a limited numbers of jedis and a weakened fleet.

 

Listen to what Canderous says during KOTOR. The Republic outnumbered the Mandalorians 10-to-1.

 

Revan created the psychic bomb , which is pretty powerfull since only extremly powerfull force user could survive ( Bane and Zannah ) of course it's not the Dark nexus or Viviate/Nihilus power but yet it is an extremly powerfull power.

 

And Bane created the Rule of Two, which each successive generation of Sith grew more and more powerful. 1000 years later, and you have the two most powerful Sith in history. Vader and Sidious.

 

Revan was a master in multiple fighting style (well that's not amaaaazing but yet it's something).

 

All Jedi are trained in multiple styles. Anakin was good at Ataru, then switched to Djem So cause it complimented his physical and force abilities. Later he augmented Djem So when he was put in the suit, having elements of Soresu as well as Juyo as well.

 

Revan mastered both sides of the force and was "neutral" (now here's why , unifying force user sees the force as a whole , not a bipolar entity , the force is a living tool meaning you can use it as you like too , the New Jedi Order of Luke followed this until the Kilik Crisis where Luke believed it was way too bordeline and came back to the old bipolar force , yet Revan was one of the few jedis with Luke and Katarn being able to use both sides of the forces without failing to the dark side (well Katarn did felled in Mots but that's another story) , that's canon .).

And he had an inner-mind powerfull enough to control the Starforge without falling to it's power.

 

It changed in the Killik Crisis because LA came down and said the Unifying Force was wrong. You cannot walk a neutral path, the powers of the Dark Side are unnatural. Jacen Solo fell to the darkside because of this.

 

Revan killed hundreds of sith and jedis sometimes taking them by dozens (maybe this isn't "canon" but for me everything that you do in the game "is" canon("not so amazing" but still).

 

Game mechanics are not canon. And by saying "to you", you have totally discredited your argument to become an opinion.

 

Now i think i made objective points here , didn't put any opinion in it.

 

You just did in your last bit of "proof".

 

 

Now let's go on Vader

 

Vader has much more potential then Revan yet he is limited by is mechanical-body.

 

Fact is that Vader was more powerful in the mechanical body than he was before. He just was never able to reach his entire potential.

 

Vader did killed many jedis but nothing out of extraordinary .

He did killed "alot" of them but don't tell me they were incredible force user.

The only great force user that Anakin really defeated was Dooku (Ventress was quite a duelist but i don't see her that powerfull).

"Oh? He invaded the Jedi Temple and killed hundreds of nameless Jedi. Thats Canon Bro. The Great Jedi Purge was the annihlation of the Jedi which was lead by Vader. He was in control of all Jedi-Killing, he told where troopers to land and where he was going. "

LOL , sure , order 66 has nothing to do with that ...

 

There were still hundreds of Jedi in the temple, teachers and instructers. Jedi like Cin Drallig who was the primary Lightsaber teacher for the entire order. Even after this, while he was in the suit he hunted down powerful Jedi Masters like the Dark Lady (who trained Shaak Ti).

 

Vader is only using rough power and let the admirals of the Fleet do most of the tactical job , who only use rough-power in order to please Vader (which made them so easy to beat).

"Yeah, that explains how he breached through the RA's headquarters? That explains how he managed to invade Kashyyk. Sure"

 

So Vader allowed professionals who were talented at their job succeed? I did not know this was a negative thing. General Veers is considered one of the Empire's greatest generals, and part of this was because he was not afraid to stand up to Vader.

 

Where do you guys see something that if Vader were leading the Imperial fleet the rebel fleet would of lost in Rotj ?

LOL , THEY HAD THE DEATHSTAR WORKING !

If it wasn't because the emperor was such confident , no more rebellion...

 

The Emperor was supremely confident. Even if he "died" at Endor he would not be dead, and he cared little for the fleet. He only wanted Luke. As for Vader controlling the fleet? Would have been hard while fighting Luke. Even Revan left the battle for the Star Forge to Master Vandar (and Bastilla) while he fought Malak.

 

Kashyyk ?

lol ? It's a joke right , did you watched the background ?

Oooooh yeah it is very well known that the Wookies were billions and were one of the most advance species in the galaxy.

And just look at ESB , on Hoth , what an incredible tactic there...

Everytime it is a 10 vs 1 , that's a proof of Vader tactical mind .

 

Only a strategic idiot would go into battle with less than overwhelming force if it wasn't needed. The Empire responded to any crisis with overwhelming and crushing force. The Rebellion could win battles, but was always retreating.

 

Vader is not a master of the force like Revan is , never created powerfull technics and is Faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from Palpatine"s level (and he is suppose to be 80% ? let me laugh , seriously ? if he was 80% of Palpatine he would of been able to do things like Nihilus or Viviate or even learn how to do the Dark Nexus).

 

Who says Vader couldn't? Just because he never utilized these abilities doesn't mean he could not. He is canonically 80% Palpatine's strength. This is fact, and cannot be disputed.

 

It took Vader 18 years to "come back" and he knew he made an error the second he waked up inside the dark suit...

He couldn't live with the guilt of what he had done and couldn't forgive himself but when his son came , forgave him and made the choice he couldn't do (accepting the possible death of his friends and refusing to fall for the darkside) Vader changed his mind.

 

Palpatine tricked Vader, made him think it was his actions that had killed Padme (when it was him falling to the Dark Side that killed her). The hatred he had for himself is what made him so powerful.

 

Well if Vader was on his full potential (which is Luke ) i would shut up and say he wins.

But Vader is far from what he's suppose to be.

And i think that Revan is just more experienced in all the cases then Vader and that's THE ONLY REASON why Revan is stronger then Vader.

And the fact that Vader is nothing more then a robot , who would get cooked by force lightining...

 

Force Lightning from the most powerful Sith who had ever lived. Otherwise he would have been killed years before.

 

Now you can say whatever you want , i tried to be as objective as possible.

 

You were not being objective at all.

 

(oh one last thing Viviate > Palpatine , he lived longer then him ) .

 

Using that logic Jocastu Nu is stronger than Revan, since she lived longer than he did.

 

 

Honestly... there is no arguing this point. You can have your opinions, but they will be logically disputed using facts from the EU as well as the films and TV shows.

Vadar got the name Darth to booost his EGO , Anakin never completed his trails and never gained the rank of Jedi Knight or Master . Sidious used the Rule of 2 but never followed it . Sidious had many Apprentices before ,after and while Vadar was his Apprentice.

 

Being Vitiate lived long before and longer than Palpitine/Sidious , this shows you lack to be willing to lose a honest debat . Vitiate sith Empire was the longest Empire to enter Republic space and control it , sorry :/

 

What?

 

Anakin became a Jedi Knight during the clone wars. Otherwise he would not have been given an apprentice.

 

He was the youngest Jedi ever to sit on the Council, and the only reason why he was not a master was because of his lack of experience.

 

Sidious has only had four apprentices. Maul, Tyranus, Vader and Luke.

 

How long someone lives does not denote power. Yoda lived for nearly a thousand years, but he still was weaker than Palpatine, who was barely 60 years of age.

Thats EU not canon remmeber ................Oh wait when its to prove your point lol.

 

Did you ever see Revan get hurt by Force choke ? NO lol

 

Sorry Vadar did that to a none force user who was powerless to defend against it. That was a nice feat but worthless to a trained master !

 

What?

 

Revan is part of the EU... so in your own argument he is not canon. (He is by the way.)

Apparently Cin Drallig and Shaak Ti don't count as powerful Jedi, when the opposite is true.

 

He also killed the Sith Lords Darth Tyrannus and Darth Maul.

 

Oh and before people state Dooku wasn't really battling him, the evidence of this is conjecture at best, whereas the novel of RotS itself, clearly states that Dooku was completely overwhelmed and taken aback by just how powerful Anakin had become, sounds more to me like Anakin outright won.

 

Marek killed Shaak Ti .........canon

I will have to get back to you on Cin Drallig

 

Maul and Dooku are good feats but more Dooku than Maul, all Jedi at one point thought Dooku to be the chosen one. It is also why Sidious wanted Dooku . Maul on the other hand was no challenge for Vadar and lost fairly quick . Vadar was powered by hate for all things including himself and only lost that hate when he was at a point in his last moment of having to pick who to side with , his son or Palpitine.

 

Vadar is my favorite Sithlord but in all honestly he just was not up to Revans level. If Anakin finish his Jedi Trials and never became half machine , well yea he would have been far more powerful than sidious or anyone else . That is a fact !

Marek killed Shaak Ti .........canon

I will have to get back to you on Cin Drallig

 

Maul and Dooku are good feats but more Dooku than Maul, all Jedi at one point thought Dooku to be the chosen one. It is also why Sidious wanted Dooku . Maul on the other hand was no challenge for Vadar and lost fairly quick . Vadar was powered by hate for all things including himself and only lost that hate when he was at a point in his last moment of having to pick who to side with , his son or Palpitine.

 

Vadar is my favorite Sithlord but in all honestly he just was not up to Revans level. If Anakin finish his Jedi Trials and never became half machine , well yea he would have been far more powerful than sidious or anyone else . That is a fact !

 

I never stated killed, I mean defeated, utterly defeated.

 

Also, If you actually read earlier pages of this thread, it has been proven time and time again that Revan is nowhere near the likes of Vader, Vader is superior in every way, the canonical demonstrations of his power are much more impressive than anything Revan has done.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Rayla_Felana

What?

 

Anakin became a Jedi Knight during the clone wars. Otherwise he would not have been given an apprentice.

 

He was the youngest Jedi ever to sit on the Council, and the only reason why he was not a master was because of his lack of experience.

 

Sidious has only had four apprentices. Maul, Tyranus, Vader and Luke.

 

How long someone lives does not denote power. Yoda lived for nearly a thousand years, but he still was weaker than Palpatine, who was barely 60 years of age.

 

Its 8 Apprentices , and Luke should not be included seeing how he never really turned for Palpitine and always had plans to overthrow him .

 

Jedi believe in rules, had Yoda allowed Darkside training , he would have been thousand times stronger then Paplitine who did study Jedi Teachings .

 

 

Vitiate , I have no clue if he studied Jedi teachings but was powerful alone with darkside teachings and lived over a thousand years + ruled over republic space longer than any other sithlord or emperor before or after !

Who were his eight Sith apprentices?

 

Maul (While still being apprenticed to Plaguis)

Dooku (Machinations while he was still apprenticed, but became official during Ep1)

Vader (As we see in the movies)

Luke (During Dark Empire)

 

He had lackeys that he empowered, like Sedriss and other dark side adepts, but none of them were Sith apprentices.

 

I am a bit behind in modern canon, so I may be wrong. If I am, enlighten me.

Alot of you don't seem to understand that Palpitine was powerful because he studied Jedi teachings and there for understood what their weaknesses was .

Palpitine did not really teach alot to any of his Apprentices because Palpitine did not believe in the rule of two , instead he used it to maintain control over his Apprentices and to keep them 1 sighted . Granted Dooku and Vadar took on Apprentices themselves , Dooku's really just being low trained assassins and Vadar's Marek being a total Bad*** . Vadar wanted to overthrow the Emperor but never could because the Emperor always had put him into situations to lose.

 

Palpitine was probably the smartest Sith to ever live because he kept most valuable teaching to himself . As in the movies and books he only cared for himself and did not really care for the Sith name...............Hence Galatic Empire and not Sith Empire.

 

It just shows that those who learned both were more powerful then those who limited to one. By the time of Palpitine came to be , he had every notible Sithlord and Jedi's teachings to learn from , not to mention his EU story before and after the movies shows how completely evil and dark he really is. I cannot say he would be Vitiate but it would be a fight that would destroy worlds .

 

 

 

Besides Leia would own them all !

In terms of awesomeness, Revan. However, in a fight, Revan would be no match for Darth Vader.

Its 8 Apprentices , and Luke should not be included seeing how he never really turned for Palpitine and always had plans to overthrow him .

 

Jedi believe in rules, had Yoda allowed Darkside training , he would have been thousand times stronger then Paplitine who did study Jedi Teachings .

 

 

Vitiate , I have no clue if he studied Jedi teachings but was powerful alone with darkside teachings and lived over a thousand years + ruled over republic space longer than any other sithlord or emperor before or after !

 

Sidious had nowhere near eight apprentices, he had Maul, Tyrannus and Vader, that is it.

 

So do the Sith, and where is your evidence for that? none exists, it's purely your assumption.

 

He had never met a Jedi till Revan and Malak whom were already corrupted by the Dark Side, He only accomplished his immortality through a ritual that required the power of 200 other Sith Lords to complete, he was nowhere near powerful enough for it.

 

He never ruled over Republic space, only about a quarter of it, which was all taken by surprise attacks and next to no defending on the part of the Republic forces, once the Republic finally got organized and truly defended their territory, the Empire was completely halted, any and all attacks were failed assaults, see the battle of Bothawui during the Great Galactic War.

Who were his eight Sith apprentices?

 

Maul (While still being apprenticed to Plaguis)

Dooku (Machinations while he was still apprenticed, but became official during Ep1)

Vader (As we see in the movies)

Luke (During Dark Empire)

 

He had lackeys that he empowered, like Sedriss and other dark side adepts, but none of them were Sith apprentices.

 

I am a bit behind in modern canon, so I may be wrong. If I am, enlighten me.

 

Darth Maul

Darth Tyranus

Darth Vader

Mara Jade (Although he I think never named her so , he did teach her as if she was)

Garth Ezzar

Cronal

Vergere

Lumiya

Luke ................this shouldn't count in my opinion

Palpatine was powerful because he came from a lineage that spent the 1000 years building towards the ultimate goal of destroying the Jedi.

 

This matched with his very strong force potential, and the teachings of his own master allowed him to manipulate events around him to create probably the greatest Xanatos Gambit modern storytelling has ever seen.

 

He played EVERYBODY.

 

He turned the longest running Republic into galactic history into an Empire in one speech, over a decade of work behind the scenes. All it took was a hand crafted war and placing people where they needed to be.

 

Palpatine is my favorite Star Wars character ever because he truly embodies what is true evil. The kind of evil than turns good against itself.

Sidious had nowhere near eight apprentices, he had Maul, Tyrannus and Vader, that is it.

 

So do the Sith, and where is your evidence for that? none exists, it's purely your assumption.

 

He had never met a Jedi till Revan and Malak whom were already corrupted by the Dark Side, He only accomplished his immortality through a ritual that required the power of 200 other Sith Lords to complete, he was nowhere near powerful enough for it.

 

He never ruled over Republic space, only about a quarter of it, which was all taken by surprise attacks and next to no defending on the part of the Republic forces, once the Republic finally got organized and truly defended their territory, the Empire was completely halted, any and all attacks were failed assaults, see the battle of Bothawui during the Great Galactic War.

 

You should not type into this Debat , Sidious never personally met Revan or Malek..........I am not going to correct the rest lol , its just too much facepalm for one to handle.

 

I think you were thinking Vitiate and he eventually takes the full Republic space , but I could be wrong being I am tired :/

Edited February 16, 2012 by mefit

Mara Jade (Although he I think never named her so , he did teach her as if she was)

Garth Ezzar

Cronal

Vergere

Lumiya

 

None of these were his apprentices, they were all assassins/hands of the Empire that were sent to kill singular threats to the Empire, and basically all of them were trained by Vader not Sidious.

You should not type into this Debat , Sidious never personally met Revan or Malek..........I am not going to correct the rest lol , its just too much facepalm for one to handle

 

I am referring to Vitiate obviously.

 

That screams of 'I have no real argument against you so I'll just disregard everything you say to continue my strawman argument.'

I think you were thinking Vitiate and he eventually takes the full Republic space , but I could be wrong being I am tired :/

 

Source? the entire of the Star Wars: The Old Republic game clearly states the war is waging with no clear victor in sight.

None of these were his apprentices, they were all assassins/hands of the Empire that were sent to kill singular threats to the Empire, and basically all of them were trained by Vader not Sidious.

 

Sidious trained all of them , Vadar also had his hand in it as the Rule of Two was in place Sidious could never give them the name Apprentice . again you are wrong :/

 

If you remember being trained by a master ment in some form you were his/her apprentice. ObiWan was not just "TRAINED" by one master and niether was Anakin by ObiWan . ObiWan was his main master but Yoda and others helped in his training in many things .

Sidious trained all of them , Vadar also had his hand in it as the Rule of Two was in place Sidious could never give them the name Apprentice . again you are wrong :/

 

If you remember being trained by a master ment in some form you were his/her apprentice. ObiWan was not just "TRAINED" by one master and niether was Anakin by ObiWan . ObiWan was his main master but Yoda and others helped in his training in many things .

 

No he didn't, I'd like your source for that.

 

You claimed they were his Sith Apprentices, a Sith Apprentice is a full apprentice to a Sith Lord, they clearly were not.

 

Now you are changing your argument.

He may have been part of their training (as was Vader), but they were never his apprentices. He never taught them Sith secrets, only how to use their force abilities to carry out his will.

Sidious trained all of them , Vadar also had his hand in it as the Rule of Two was in place Sidious could never give them the name Apprentice . again you are wrong :/

 

If you remember being trained by a master ment in some form you were his/her apprentice. ObiWan was not just "TRAINED" by one master and niether was Anakin by ObiWan . ObiWan was his main master but Yoda and others helped in his training in many things .

 

No he didn't. Lumiya was Vader's secret apprentice. Cronal was Sidious's Assassin. Cronal never called Sidious Master. And Sidious used Cronal to study the dark side more, since Cronal became completely consumed by it and was a master at Sith Alchemy.

 

To call Vergere Sidious's apprentice.. wow.

 

And the RoT doesn't exist if there is no more Jedi or the Republic. Hence why he broke it post-ROTS(You know when he conquered the known galsxy)

 

 

And the others you listed are not his apprentices. Luke wasn't even in his right mind.

Edited February 16, 2012 by BrandonSM

Sidious trained all of them , Vadar also had his hand in it as the Rule of Two was in place Sidious could never give them the name Apprentice . again you are wrong :/

 

If you remember being trained by a master ment in some form you were his/her apprentice. ObiWan was not just "TRAINED" by one master and niether was Anakin by ObiWan . ObiWan was his main master but Yoda and others helped in his training in many things .

 

He didn't train all of them at once. The RoT states only one apprentice at a time. Since Maul died, he got Dooku and when Dooku died he got Vader.

Revan!

Vader. While Revan is very knowledgeable in the Force, Vader is the one of the strongest ever in terms of raw power. Not only that, he has access to thousands more years of knowledge in comparison to Revan. Saber wise, Vader is pretty accomplished. Not saying Revan isn't too, but again, the thousands of years worth of knowledge gives Vader the advantage.

Greetings everyone!

 

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