Welcome to the seventh match of The BattleZone. Our previous match saw Kit Fisto defeat Agen Kolar in the Jedi Library on Coruscant.

Our next battle will be waged between Darth Sidious' apprentice Darth Maul, and Count Dooku's rogue assassin Asajj Ventress. Due to a tie in the vote, I have elected to use Darth Maul as he was in The Phantom Menace for this match. I will use Darth Maul as he is in The Clone Wars for his next match, whether it be in round two or round one of the Loser's tournament.

Battlefield: Theed Palace

Lightsaber skill:

Darth Maul:

Trained to perfection by his master, Darth Sidious, Darth Maul was a master lightsaber duelist. His focus on a purely physical victory led him to study and master the Juyo lightsaber, and couple it with his mastery of Niman, Jar'Kai, and his use of the double-bladed lightsaber.

Because of his training in Juyo, Maul was an incredibly aggressive fighter. He devoted his time to the physical aspects of fighting, forgoing the Sith tactic of Dun Moch in order to completely dominate his opponents through martial prowess.

Darth Maul's defense was strong, capable of holding off Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn and his padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi until he could lead them into an area to take advantage of Qui-Gon Jinn's weaknesses.

Darth Maul often incorporated his Teras Kasi mastery into lightsaber combat, giving him even greater utility in combat.

Asajj Ventress:

Asajj Ventress was trained in the Makashi form of lightsaber combat by Count Dooku. She was given the two lightsabers of fallen Jedi Komari Vosa by Dooku to use in combat. She could connect these two weapons at the pommel to form a double-bladed lightsaber.

Through the course of her training, and subsequent missions, Ventress continued to hone her skills. Eventually mastering the art of Jar'Kai dual-wielding.

Early in her career she suffered from two major weaknesses: the inherent defensive weakness of Jar'Kai practitioners, and an over-reliance on her second blade. She eventually overcame these weaknesses, displaying impressive defenses and skill in single blade combat. She also displayed skill in unarmed combat.

Ventress' defenses are very impressive. She has proved capable of defending herself against several enemies at a time.

However, Ventress' abilities in lightsaber combat were often deemed to be sloppy and without tact by both Luminara Unduli and Darth Sidious.

Edge: I find the edge difficult to give for this category. Both have shown impressive defenses, and strong offensives. However, Darth Maul's capabilities in lightsaber combat are simply honed to perfection by Darth Sidious. Darth Maul gets the edge, but only a slight edge over Ventress' very impressive skills.

Physicality:

Darth Maul:

Darth Maul is a young, physically fit Zabrak. As such, Darth Maul was physically strong and agile, and possessed a remarkable resistance to pain.

Asajj Ventress:

Asajj Ventress is a young, physically fit Dathomirian. She has incredible athletic skills, but other than that, no notable physical advantages.

Edge: Darth Maul and Asajj Ventress are physically similar to each other, but Darth Maul's inherent Zabrak physicality gives him the edge.

Mentality:

Darth Maul:

Due to his harsh training under Darth Sidious, Darth Maul became little more than a vessel of hate, especially against the Jedi Order. However, he was still capable of feeling respect for others, granting them quick deaths. He was also capable of forming emotional attachments, showing a genuine brotherhood with Savage Opress.

Darth Maul was noted by Darth Sidious as being very prideful- even arrogant. He believed himself capable of killing every Jedi in the Jedi Temple- even the Jedi High Council- on his own. Darth Maul was often prone to gloating, which was what led to his defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi on Naboo.

However, Darth Maul possesses an incredibly strong will. He is often willing to sustain any pain until his mission is completed. He was obsessed with achieving victory at any cost.

In combat, Darth Maul was an intuitive duelist. He would take advantage of an opponent's weakness to defeat them. When his lightsaber skill was insufficient, he would often rely on his tactical know-how to outmaneuver his enemies and move them into positions where he had an advantage.

Asajj Ventress:

After her Jedi mentor's death on Rattatak, Ventress became vengeful towards the Jedi because she believed that the Jedi had abandoned her master. Upon entry into Count Dooku's service, Ventress' hate became obsession, which eventually became focused on Obi-Wan Kenobi. Darth Sidious considered her to be tactless when it came to fighting Jedi.

Ventress has displayed a great deal of arrogance and overconfidence after slaying several Jedi, to the point where she would fly into a rage if her skills were ever understated or spoken against.

In combat, Ventress used the environment to her advantage. During her duel with Luminara Unduli, she attacked a steam pipe to partially blind the Jedi Master.

Edge: Both of them are intuitive and tactical fighters, but they both have their flaws. However, it is unlikely that either of them will take advantage of these mental flaws. It is likely that they will try to maneuver each other into positions advantageous to them. I cannot give the edge to either of them.

Force Powers:

Darth Maul:

Darth Maul displayed a reasonable level of skill in telekinetics, as well as Force Choke and Force Grip. He was also resistant to Force lightning and telepathy.

However, due to Darth Maul's focus on physical combat, he did not use his Force powers in combat unless absolutely necessary.

Asajj Ventress:

Asajj Ventress has displayed incredible aptitude with the Force. She is capable of Force Choke and Force Grip, as well as enhancing her body with the Force to run at incredible speeds and to perform other acrobatics.

She has also displayed the ability to break through the Force resistances of other Force users to telekinetically assault them.

Edge: Darth Maul's focus on the physical aspects of combat cause him to rarely use his Force abilities, whereas Ventress has no qualms of using the Force mid-combat. Ventress gets the edge.

So who will win? Who is truly superior?

Whilst Lord Maul's lightsaber skills are very impressive and highly honed, I don't believe that it is so good as to defeat Ventress outright, I also think that her use of Makashi is almost perfect to counter Maul's Juyo, if Padawan-turning-Knight Obi-Wan's Ataru can defeat Maul's Juyo, then Asajj's Makashi should by all means wreck Maul's Juyo.

Then not to mention that Ventress' force powers would wipe the floor with anything Maul can conjure up.

Ventress wins.

Whilst Lord Maul's lightsaber skills are very impressive and highly honed, I don't believe that it is so good as to defeat Ventress outright, I also think that her use of Makashi is almost perfect to counter Maul's Juyo, if Padawan-turning-Knight Obi-Wan's Ataru can defeat Maul's Juyo, then Asajj's Makashi should by all means wreck Maul's Juyo.

 

Then not to mention that Ventress' force powers would wipe the floor with anything Maul can conjure up.

 

Ventress wins.

There is also the fact that, Maul had an edge over Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan using his double bladed saber(aswell as the other Jedi he fought). Something which isn't encountered regularly. Maul won't have this advantage, if Ventress knows about how the double bladed saber works. There is also the fact the big hilt is a flaw for Maul as it was exploited by Obi-Wan.

Hmm...you know what, I think I may have an idea for an Analysis thread..thanks Aurbere!

Appologies in advance Beni, this argument won't be as long as I had intended, I simply do not have time for more at the moment, rest assured though my argument will enter this forum in its entirety

First things first, Aubere, I need to address something.

Ventress wins in the mentality department... Allow me to say why...

Maul believed in a swift, pure, physical victory, No taunts, and he did not study Dun Moch. Ventress however, loves playing with her opponents minds, taunting them, exploiting their weaknesses.

Whilst maul never fought any sith (That i know of) employing this technique, other than Sidious, a wonderful example of this is when he fought a force user, of far less power, in a one on one duel. On an unknown planet in the outer rim, maul was sent on a mission to murder Silus, a force sensitive using the force for monetary gain.

Sidious promised Silus to be his new apprentice if he could defeat maul, as a means of testing Maul. When maul saw a Holo-Recording of this proposal, he faltered.

Big time...

He became overwhelmed with emotions, and it nearly led to his death. He let his emotions get the better of him, where any normal sith would let their rage fuel them, and either realise that their masters offer was not sincere, or would plan to kill him at another time or flee...

Ventress could exploit this weakness, the fact maul was incredibly susceptible to taunts, with ease...

I know this is TPM maul, and thus this next part is invalid, but Kenobi was shown to taunt maul just as easily, forcing him into sloppiness...

Now, martial prowess...

In this duel, i see ventresses form easily being superior to mauls, and I won't touch on it more, as Rayla already has.

Maul won't have this advantage, if Ventress knows about how the double bladed saber works. There is also the fact the big hilt is a flaw for Maul as it was exploited by Obi-Wan.

I'd just like to highlight this, maul knew Jar'kai, the dual saber form, but he never really used it in combat, as he wasn't anywhere near as powerful with it as he was with a dual blade... Ventress on the other hand knew Dual Blade well enough to fight with it, even well enough to face Kenobi with it, so that is something to note.

Maul will not be able to use his typical tactics of relying on his opponent not being fully aware of Dual Blade combat.

Appologies in advance Beni, this argument won't be as long as I had intended, I simply do not have time for more at the moment, rest assured though my argument will enter this forum in its entirety

 

First things first, Aubere, I need to address something.

Ventress wins in the mentality department... Allow me to say why...

Maul believed in a swift, pure, physical victory, No taunts, and he did not study Dun Moch. Ventress however, loves playing with her opponents minds, taunting them, exploiting their weaknesses.

Whilst maul never fought any sith (That i know of) employing this technique, other than Sidious, a wonderful example of this is when he fought a force user, of far less power, in a one on one duel. On an unknown planet in the outer rim, maul was sent on a mission to murder Silus, a force sensitive using the force for monetary gain.

Sidious promised Silus to be his new apprentice if he could defeat maul, as a means of testing Maul. When maul saw a Holo-Recording of this proposal, he faltered.

Big time...

 

He became overwhelmed with emotions, and it nearly led to his death. He let his emotions get the better of him, where any normal sith would let their rage fuel them, and either realise that their masters offer was not sincere, or would plan to kill him at another time or flee...

Ventress could exploit this weakness, the fact maul was incredibly susceptible to taunts, with ease...

I know this is TPM maul, and thus this next part is invalid, but Kenobi was shown to taunt maul just as easily, forcing him into sloppiness...

I had forgotten about that. Since that is the case, then I gues Ventress does get the mental advantage.

Now, martial prowess...

In this duel, i see ventresses form easily being superior to mauls, and I won't touch on it more, as Rayla already has.

I don't know. I think Maul's sheer ferocity gives him an advantage over Ventress. At least forcing her onto the defensive, in which she would have to rely on the above and her acrobatics.

I'd just like to highlight this, maul knew Jar'kai, the dual saber form, but he never really used it in combat, as he wasn't anywhere near as powerful with it as he was with a dual blade... Ventress on the other hand knew Dual Blade well enough to fight with it, even well enough to face Kenobi with it, so that is something to note.

Maul will not be able to use his typical tactics of relying on his opponent not being fully aware of Dual Blade combat.

As pointed out earlier, Maul's double-bladed lightsaber, while effective in it's own right, has the chance of being severed.

Having just watched the Obi-Wan vs. Maul duel in TPM, I don't know if this would really be a hindrance. Sure he wouldn't be in his element, but he showed impressive skill with the single blade... against a Knight-level Padawan, in which he was forced to use the Force to win.

Upon reflection, it would seem my personal preference for TPM Maul and my own desire to use him in the tournament may have been a mistake on my part. Well, can't do anything about now.

Hmm...you know what, I think I may have an idea for an Analysis thread..thanks Aurbere!

You're welcome.

I have to agree with Selenial that Ventress gets the mental edge, what may come across as arrogance and over-confidence is in fact an effective application of Dun Moch which she used constantly and to great effect. No doubt inherited from her master, Count Dooku.

Nonetheless I remain unconvinced Ventress will succeed. Firstly can someone explain to me how Makashi is rock to Juyo's scissors? Because I see no basis for this. Note the following:

Jedi battlemaster Cin Drallig listed bold, direct motions as characteristics of Juyo, qualifying them as more open and kinetic than Form V, but with a less elaborate appearance than Ataru....The form was said to necessitate greater energy than Form V, due to a broader wielding of a user's focus and a deeper emotional link.

...

However, the greatest flaw of the Makashi system of combat was its lack of kinetic energy; the focus on precision and blade control hampered the ability to generate momentum in both its offensive and defensive maneuvers, leaving the attacks easily shunted aside and its parries easily battered aside. This lack of physical force left Makashi practitioners vulnerable to duelists utilizing more contemporary forms, which emphasized power and brute strength.

~ Wookieepedia

If anything Juyo has the advantage over Makashi, but certainly not the other way around - unless I have missed something. Juyo is vulnerable to Force based attacks which could be a boon to Ventress, but not enough to win.

Let's also note that Maul is an exceptional lightsaber duelist. He mastered Juyo, a highly difficult form which requires a level of skill in all forms, as well as Niman and Jar'Kai. He defeated Qui-Gon Jinn, one of the most skilled master's of his time and considered to be Windu's equal, and immediately prior to that managed to hold of both Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi (an exceptional duelist himself even as a Padawan) with ease. Then upon being resurrected he dominated Obi-Wan in a lightsaber duel (albeit with the help of his legs) and managed to hold his own against Darth Sidious to the point of

Ventress on the other hand, while being a skilled duelist, has shown herself little match for Windu. And was easily defeated by her master Count Dooku, duelists Maul is arguably on par with if not superior (in Dooku's case). She was also unable to defeat Savage Oppress, whom Maul easily dominated when challenged. So while Ventress' Force powers will give her an advantage, they will only delay the inevitable - a swift and decisive victory for Maul.

As much as I love Ventress, I have to be a realist. Saving the fanboism for Traya.

EDIT: At what point did Obi Wan defeat Maul? I'd assume your referring to the point where he caught Maul off guard with an aggressive and focused flurry and managed to cut his blade in half and then proceeded to be soundly defeated.

What's more while Maul may refrain from using Force powers in battle, this attitude seemed to change after his resurrection, and even before then he utilized them in battle. They are also arguably superior to Ventress', remember

No offence Beni, but a couple of your last points are completely invalid, due to them being TCW Maul.

Him dominating opress was after his resurrection, when he adopted a different fighting style. Besides, Savage wasnt trying to kill maul, or even wound him, he was trying to prove he is his equal, when during his fight with ventress, he had entered a rage and was out for blood.

No offence Beni, but a couple of your last points are completely invalid, due to them being TCW Maul.

Him dominating opress was after his resurrection, when he adopted a different fighting style. Besides, Savage wasnt trying to kill maul, or even wound him, he was trying to prove he is his equal, when during his fight with ventress, he had entered a rage and was out for blood.

Also note, Maul is in expert in double-blade, single blade and dual blade. He displayed as much in TCW.

EDIT: Maul didn't even have special legs when he dueled Sidious. So again I'm not sure why these abilities are invalid. Did he take some sort of drug or something?

EDIT: If anything TCW Maul should be weaker as he languished in insanity for what, 10 years? Not exactly honing his skills. Or are we saying the Nightsisters imbued him with magic? I'm not sure there's much evidence to support that...

I have to agree with Selenial that Ventress gets the mental edge, what may come across as arrogance and over-confidence is in fact an effective application of Dun Moch which she used constantly and to great effect. No doubt inherited from her master, Count Dooku.

 

Nonetheless I remain unconvinced Ventress will succeed. Firstly can someone explain to me how Makashi is rock to Juyo's scissors? Because I see no basis for this. Note the following:

 

Jedi battlemaster Cin Drallig listed bold, direct motions as characteristics of Juyo, qualifying them as more open and kinetic than Form V, but with a less elaborate appearance than Ataru....The form was said to necessitate greater energy than Form V, due to a broader wielding of a user's focus and a deeper emotional link.

 

...

 

However, the greatest flaw of the Makashi system of combat was its lack of kinetic energy; the focus on precision and blade control hampered the ability to generate momentum in both its offensive and defensive maneuvers, leaving the attacks easily shunted aside and its parries easily battered aside. This lack of physical force left Makashi practitioners vulnerable to duelists utilizing more contemporary forms, which emphasized power and brute strength.

 

~ Wookieepedia

 

If anything Juyo has the advantage over Makashi, but certainly not the other way around - unless I have missed something. Juyo is vulnerable to Force based attacks which could be a boon to Ventress, but not enough to win.

 

Let's also note that Maul is an exceptional lightsaber duelist. He mastered Juyo, a highly difficult form which requires a level of skill in all forms, as well as Niman and Jar'Kai. He defeated Qui-Gon Jinn, one of the most skilled master's of his time and considered to be Windu's equal, and immediately prior to that managed to hold of both Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi (an exceptional duelist himself even as a Padawan) with ease. Then upon being resurrected he dominated Obi-Wan in a lightsaber duel (albeit with the help of his legs) and managed to hold his own against Darth Sidious to the point of

Note only Windu and Yoda were able to go toe-to-toe in such a manner.

 

Ventress on the other hand, while being a skilled duelist, has shown herself little match for Windu. And was easily defeated by her master Count Dooku, duelists Maul is arguably on par with if not superior (in Dooku's case). She was also unable to defeat Savage Oppress, whom Maul easily dominated when challenged. So while Ventress' Force powers will give her an advantage, they will only delay the inevitable - a swift and decisive victory for Maul.

 

As much as I love Ventress, I have to be a realist. Saving the fanboism for Traya.

To be honest, I only considered TCW for Ventress' mentality. I never really saw Ventress mock her opponents mid-combat. Don't take my word for it because I haven't watched every episode yet.

Also, I agree regarding lightsaber forms. Sure Ventress has an athletic edge, but that's pretty small considering Maul's athleticism. Concerning Makashi's weakness to brute strength, I believe Dooku to be the exception to that (I have plenty of evidence to support that, but let's save it for Dooku's battle).

Though I would caution using Mace Windu as an example. He very clearly makes most duelists look amateur.

Also, you have used many TCW examples for Maul. But your TPM evidence is very well though out. We should also remember that during the Theed Palace duel, Maul was trying to lure Qui-Gon to an enclosed area to take advantage of Qui-Gon's weaknesses that he had observed on Tatooine (I would have to pick up the TPM novel, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened).

EDIT: If anything TCW Maul should be weaker as he languished in insanity for what, 10 years? Not exactly honing his skills. Or are we saying the Nightsisters imbued him with magic? I'm not sure there's much evidence to support that...

That's a good point. We even see this with Old Ben Kenobi. He had been out of practice for over ten years. It is likely that Maul's lightsaber skills weakened. However, I am of the opinion that he grew more powerful, feeding on his hate. A theory of mine.

I'm not sure how losing one's legs has any effect on one's abilities. He didn't learn anything new, these are just skills he didn't use before. TPM Maul and TCW Maul are effectively the same person, I'm confused as to why people think otherwise and think TPM is somehow less powerful... A fair point about Savage though.

 

Also note, Maul is in expert in double-blade, single blade and dual blade. He displayed as much in TCW.

 

EDIT: Maul didn't even have special legs when he dueled Sidious. So again I'm not sure why these abilities are invalid. Did he take some sort of drug or something?

 

EDIT: If anything TCW Maul should be weaker as he languished in insanity for what, 10 years? Not exactly honing his skills. Or are we saying the Nightsisters imbued him with magic? I'm not sure there's much evidence to support that...

Read the OP seriously beni, this is TPM Maul possibly in his best physical condition also Ventress has this due to using force powers during combat along with Makashi is perfect to face dual blade opponents because Makashi is more precise than dual-blade.

Ventress was a master Jar'kai specialist, an extremely proficient Makashi duellist and also incorporated elements of Ataru.

She even bested Grievous in one on one combat and he had to call upon his battle droids to continue the fight.

Now I knew the Qui-Gon Jinn fight would be brought up but 1.He WAS an equal to Windu before age started to catch up to him. 2.Maul defeated Jinn only when Maul had brought him into an enclosed space and removed much of Jinn's ability to wield Ataru. 3.Jinn was past his prime and it was relatively easy for Maul to finish off Jinn now that the fight had become a prolonged one, this is more than evident due to the fact that Jinn has to take break and meditate to regain his stamina.

Where as Ventress has faced off against multiple exceptionally powerful Jedi including facing both Skywalker and Kenobi and instead of allowing their polar opposite forms to weigh in on her, she instead broke through BOTH of their force barriers and force choked them, whilst heavily injured i might add.

She was exceptional at telekinetics, could force jump enormous distances and had a high proficiency of Force Speed.

She was also exceptionally skilled at Dun Moch including using affect mind to confuse/infuriate her opponents a lot further than most.

I also might add that Juyo's normally powerful kinetic abilities are cancelled out by the use of a saberstaff, as Kas'im has stated, a saberstaff actually lessens the ability of a powerful strong attacker because the kinetic damage can't be centred into one blade, for the saberstaff is a long weapon and it's usage is pointless if you don't attack quickly, something Ventress is highly used to fighting Jedi.

To be honest, I only considered TCW for Ventress' mentality. I never really saw Ventress mock her opponents mid-combat. Don't take my word for it because I haven't watched every episode yet.

 

Also, I agree regarding lightsaber forms. Sure Ventress has an athletic edge, but that's pretty small considering Maul's athleticism. Concerning Makashi's weakness to brute strength, I believe Dooku to be the exception to that (I have plenty of evidence to support that, but let's save it for Dooku's battle).

 

Though I would caution using Mace Windu as an example. He very clearly makes most duelists look amateur.

 

Also, you have used many TCW examples for Maul. But your TPM evidence is very well though out. We should also remember that during the Theed Palace duel, Maul was trying to lure Qui-Gon to an enclosed area to take advantage of Qui-Gon's weaknesses that he had observed on Tatooine (I would have to pick up the TPM novel, but I'm pretty sure that's what happened).

1. From the comics which I have not read but am familiar with, from the few excepts I've seen Ventress plays a bunch of Jedi for fools with Dun Moch and even turns one to the dark side (I mean she must be the only Sith whose managed to do that )
    
    
   
2. Dooku is a minor exception to the rule but only because of his skill, against a skilled duelist as he (e.g. Anakin Skywalker) the weakness becomes apparent. It can't really be overcome. And we also have to remember that Ventress' Makashi is unrefined compared to Dooku's.
    
    
   
3. Sure Mace Windu is BAMF but given that Qui-Gon is supposedly his equal and Maul defeated Qui-Gon (and went toe-to-toe with Sidious) I'd say Maul would give him a run for his money. Something Ventress is incapable of doing.
    
    
   
4. Again confused why TCW Maul has no relevance to TPM Maul when they are essentially the same guy minus some body parts. Its like saying Anakin's martial prowess pre-Mustafar is entirely irrelevant to Vader's prowess. Even worse as his injuries were far more severe.
    
    
   
5. While Maul did have to push Jinn into a corner, its incredibly impressive that he managed to hold his own against two Ataru specialists (one whom was an absoulte master) a highly aggresive form designed to achieve swift and decisive victory, with a form supposedly weak in the defense dept. with relative ease.
   

Altogether I feel Maul is being severly underestimated and that Ventress is no match. Tenous ABC Logic here but Maul beat Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon = Windu, Dooku = Windu, Dooku floored Ventress, Maul > Ventress. Tenous I know but I'm trying to highlight how Maul is in a different league, if Ventress was truly a superior duelist then Dooku would not have beaten her so very, very easily.

That's a good point. We even see this with Old Ben Kenobi. He had been out of practice for over ten years. It is likely that Maul's lightsaber skills weakened. However, I am of the opinion that he grew more powerful, feeding on his hate. A theory of mine.

"It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won't deny his mastery of the Jar'Kai technique. Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice." ~ Plagueis

And likely more skilled than Ventress.

Ventress was a master Jar'kai specialist, an extremely proficient Makashi duellist and also incorporated elements of Ataru.

 

She even bested Grievous in one on one combat and he had to call upon his battle droids to continue the fight.

Also, defeating TCW Grievous is no mean feat, given the fact that Gungans gave him a run for his money /sigh.

Now I knew the Qui-Gon Jinn fight would be brought up but 1.He WAS an equal to Windu before age started to catch up to him. 2.Maul defeated Jinn only when Maul had brought him into an enclosed space and removed much of Jinn's ability to wield Ataru. 3.Jinn was past his prime and it was relatively easy for Maul to finish off Jinn now that the fight had become a prolonged one, this is more than evident due to the fact that Jinn has to take break and meditate to regain his stamina.

 

Where as Ventress has faced off against multiple exceptionally powerful Jedi including facing both Skywalker and Kenobi and instead of allowing their polar opposite forms to weigh in on her, she instead broke through BOTH of their force barriers and force choked them, whilst heavily injured i might add.

 

She was exceptional at telekinetics, could force jump enormous distances and had a high proficiency of Force Speed.

 

She was also exceptionally skilled at Dun Moch including using affect mind to confuse/infuriate her opponents a lot further than most.

 

I also might add that Juyo's normally powerful kinetic abilities are cancelled out by the use of a saberstaff, as Kas'im has stated, a saberstaff actually lessens the ability of a powerful strong attacker because the kinetic damage can't be centred into one blade, for the saberstaff is a long weapon and it's usage is pointless if you don't attack quickly, something Ventress is highly used to fighting Jedi.

And regarding her skill in telekinetics, its obviously there but in a pitched battle against a highly aggressive form and a highly durable opponent will not give her much of an advantage. Especially given that Maul can respond in kind if necessary.

1. From the comics which I have not read but am familiar with, from the few excepts I've seen Ventress plays a bunch of Jedi for fools with Dun Moch and even turns one to the dark side (I mean she must be the only Sith whose managed to do that )
    
    
   
2. Dooku is a minor exception to the rule but only because of his skill, against a skilled duelist as he (e.g. Anakin Skywalker) the weakness becomes apparent. It can't really be overcome. And we also have to remember that Ventress' Makashi is unrefined compared to Dooku's.
    
    
   
3. Sure Mace Windu is BAMF but given that Qui-Gon is supposedly his equal and Maul defeated Qui-Gon (and went toe-to-toe with Sidious) I'd say Maul would give him a run for his money. Something Ventress is incapable of doing.
    
    
   
4. Again confused why TCW Maul has no relevance to TPM Maul when they are essentially the same guy minus some body parts. Its like saying Anakin's martial prowess pre-Mustafar is entirely irrelevant to Vader's prowess. Even worse as his injuries were far more severe.
    
    
   
5. While Maul did have to push Jinn into a corner, its incredibly impressive that he managed to hold his own against two Ataru specialists (one whom was an absoulte master) a highly aggresive form designed to achieve swift and decisive victory, with a form supposedly weak in the defense dept. with relative ease.
   

 

Altogether I feel Maul is being severly underestimated and that Ventress is no match. Tenous ABC Logic here but Maul beat Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon = Windu, Dooku = Windu, Dooku floored Ventress, Maul > Ventress. Tenous I know but I'm trying to highlight how Maul is in a different league, if Ventress was truly a superior duelist then Dooku would not have beaten her so very, very easily.

1. That was the mission to Ruul wasn't it? Sorry, but I don't read too many comics (usually only the ones with Plo Koon).

2. Well, actually, in TCW Dooku holds off Anakin (who was pretty much rage-mode) one-handed. It was only in Revenge of the Sith that this becomes apparent.

3. Well, yes, just pointing out that Mace is the boss.

4. Maul's pretty different in TCW. But that is mostly the single blade and Dun Moch. I personally believe that his skills remained mostly unchanged.

5. Maul's skills are very impressive. But the issue with using Qui-Gon Jinn is that he was passed his prime. While Qui-Gon Jinn was still very skilled, his age severely impacted his abilities. Not that I'm trying to argue with you because Ataru is meant for quick victories. Maul using an offensive form in such a manner is telling of his skill.

If I may, I would just like to point out a weakness in your ABC logic. Mace Windu=Jedi Master Dooku. Mace Windu > Count Dooku (Boz Pity). Dooku became more powerful as a Sith Lord, but being a Sith made him vulnerable to Vaapad. This is why Mace is only second best in the Order at the time, because he can't use Vaapad on Yoda or any other Jedi.

Regardless, the argument is sound.

Perhaps, but this is nowhere stated so the abilities should at least be considered. It also still stands that Maul is an exceptionally skilled single-bladed and Jar'Kai wielder. To quote Darth Plagueis:

 

"It strikes me as unnecessary, but I won't deny his mastery of the Jar'Kai technique. Niman and teräs käsi will never substitute for dun möch, but I appreciate that you have trained him to be a fighting machine rather than a true apprentice." ~ Plagueis

 

And likely more skilled than Ventress.

Well, we can only speculate on that. But Maul has shown a reasonable level of skill in Force Choke and Force Grip, as well as other telekinetic abilities. But I give Ventress the Force powers edge.

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2. Dooku is a minor exception to the rule but only because of his skill, against a skilled duelist as he (e.g. Anakin Skywalker) the weakness becomes apparent. It can't really be overcome. And we also have to remember that Ventress' Makashi is unrefined compared to Dooku's.
   

Sure Mace Windu is BAMF but given that Qui-Gon is supposedly his equal and Maul defeated Qui-Gon (and went toe-to-toe with Sidious) I'd say Maul would give him a run for his money. Something Ventress is incapable of doing.

Again confused why TCW Maul has no relevance to TPM Maul when they are essentially the same guy minus some body parts. Its like saying Anakin's martial prowess pre-Mustafar is entirely irrelevant to Vader's prowess. Even worse as his injuries were far more severe.

While Maul did have to push Jinn into a corner, its incredibly impressive that he managed to hold his own against two Ataru specialists (one whom was an absoulte master) a highly aggresive form designed to achieve swift and decisive victory, with a form supposedly weak in the defense dept. with relative ease.

Don't get me wrong. Maul is a master of Juyo but up to a point, his powers are useless and I mean useless against someone like Dooku or Ventress,

Altogether I feel Maul is being severly underestimated and that Ventress is no match. Tenous ABC Logic here but Maul beat Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon = Windu, Dooku = Windu, Dooku floored Ventress, Maul > Ventress. Tenous I know but I'm trying to highlight how Maul is in a different league, if Ventress was truly a superior duelist then Dooku would not have beaten her so very, very easily.

Let me put it simple for you:

If both ventress and maul were put against Dooku, Ventress would last longer.

I'm aware of Ventress' capabilities, but Maul is a master Jar'Kai specialist as well. And unlike Maul's Juyo, which was trained to perfection, Ventress' Makashi was far from perfect. Unduli wasn't lying when she called it 'sloppy and unrefined' although perhaps exaggerating.

Ventress' Makashi had clearly gotten a lot better in the second half of the war, when she could face off against multiple Jedi at a time and some times had very little difficulty, Tano even states that no one Jedi can face off against Ventress because she is too powerful, now obviously the likes of Windu and Yoda would clean house with her, but beyond those two I have no difficulty believing what Tano states.

Interesting point about Jinn, that makes more sense. Nonetheless holding your own against an Ataru master of such a level is highly impressive, especially given the fact their were too of them. Neither did Maul seem to be struggling. On the other hand, Anakin and Obi-Wan clearly outclassed Ventress. Yes she managed to Force choke them but in a moment of desperation and anger (no doubt fuelled by her betrayal) and I doubt she would have succeeded in killing them.

Well Maul smartly removes Kenobi for the second half of the fight until he kills Jinn, also as I have stated, Jinn was a great duellist, but by TPM he was clearly entering his twilight years as a Jedi Master and Maul's extreme conditioning was way beyond Qui-Gon's.

Secondly, Ventress was injured, very injured due to Dooku's betrayal not just physically but mentally as well, so she would've been easy prey for just about any of the more powerful Jedi, but the fact she still manages to break through their force barriers with ease and force crush both of them is an obvious example of how powerful she was becoming, so much so that Sidious has Dooku attempt to destroy her because he fears that Dooku ay be training her to help replace him. and yet when Maul returns with Savage Opress, Sidious has absolutely no worries when he dispatches them, there is clearly a difference in power here as far as Sidious believes.

And regarding her skill in telekinetics, its obviously there but in a pitched battle against a highly aggressive form and a highly durable opponent will not give her much of an advantage. Especially given that Maul can respond in kind if necessary.

It is not just telekinetics though, it is a very cunning display of Dun Moch, a very advanced force jump and exceptional force speed, not to mention that Ventress' displays of telekinesis is WAY beyond anything Maul has displayed.

Ventress' Makashi had clearly gotten a lot better in the second half of the war, when she could face off against multiple Jedi at a time and some times had very little difficulty, Tano even states that no one Jedi can face off against Ventress because she is too powerful, now obviously the likes of Windu and Yoda would clean house with her, but beyond those two I have no difficulty believing what Tano states.

Well Maul smartly removes Kenobi for the second half of the fight until he kills Jinn, also as I have stated, Jinn was a great duellist, but by TPM he was clearly entering his twilight years as a Jedi Master and Maul's extreme conditioning was way beyond Qui-Gon's.

 

Secondly, Ventress was injured, very injured due to Dooku's betrayal not just physically but mentally as well, so she would've been easy prey for just about any of the more powerful Jedi, but the fact she still manages to break through their force barriers with ease and force crush both of them is an obvious example of how powerful she was becoming, so much so that Sidious has Dooku attempt to destroy her because he fears that Dooku ay be training her to help replace him. and yet when Maul returns with Savage Opress, Sidious has absolutely no worries when he dispatches them, there is clearly a difference in power here as far as Sidious believes.

2. Injured yes, but those emotions coupled with her desperation fuelled her power. Simiarily in the above video Savage managed to choke both Ventress and Dooku outright - despite being weakened. It's clear both can be explained as a sudden surge of emotions. Nothing applicable in the midst of battle.

3. Sidious has Dooku dispatch Ventress for him, Sidious goes personally to destroy Maul - how is that not considering him a threat? I don't think Sidious was ever worried about Ventress destroying him, but Dooku growing confident enough to try, which would disrupt his plans. Nor do I believe that if Sidious had to dispatch Ventress, he would have any worries either. He is Darth Sidious after all.

It is not just telekinetics though, it is a very cunning display of Dun Moch, a very advanced force jump and exceptional force speed, not to mention that Ventress' displays of telekinesis is WAY beyond anything Maul has displayed.

if Padawan-turning-Knight Obi-Wan's Ataru can defeat Maul's Juyo, then Asajj's Makashi should by all means wreck Maul's Juyo.

I've got to correct you on something here. Obi-Wan did not defeat Maul in an Ataru vs. Juyo duel. In fact, Maul beat Obi-Wan in that duel. Obi-Wan only won when he Force-pulled Qui-Gon's lightsaber and cut Maul in half. In the fight itself, Maul had Obi-Wan beaten cleanly.

But I think Ventress still has this. Because she defended vs Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker both Jedi Knights level, that means she knew how to defend Anakin's Dejem So and Obi-Wan Ataru.

Maul would last aprox 3 secs alive before Dooku kills him or less, Ventress atleast fought him before she fled.

Personally, if you ask me using Mace Windu as a measuring stick is a terrible idea for 1 reason, Vaapad. The reason Mace was able to dominate/defeat Ventress, Dooku, and Sidious is because they all are dark side users and Windu's Vaapad feeds off the dark side be it either his own or his opponents.

Qui-gon and Dooku were said to be equal to Windu in saber skills, but that's only when Mace didn't have any darkness to channel other than his own (he was only able to defeat Sidious because of Vaapad and would have been killed had he used any other form).

That being said I would have to give this to Maul. He has dueled Darth Sidious to the point where Sidious actually got frustrated and had to try to defeat him (May I remind you that Sidious killed Agen Kolar, Sassee Tiin, and Kit Fitso effortlessly whom were some of the orders most powerful saber duelists)

Ventress, on the other hand has been consistently dominated by Dooku in every fight they have been in. And didn't Grievous beat Ventress early on which gave him the right to be the Droid Commander for the CIS or is that not canon cause I don't see anything contradicting it?

I give the edge to Maul simply because he has fought better duelists and was never thoroughly dominated (unless you count Sidious trying but hey only Mace Windu and Yoda in the PT were able to stand up to that.)

 

That being said I would have to give this to Maul. He has dueled Darth Sidious to the point where Sidious actually got frustrated and had to try to defeat him (May I remind you that Sidious killed Agen Kolar, Sassee Tiin, and Kit Fitso effortlessly whom were some of the orders most powerful saber duelists)

 

Ventress, on the other hand has been consistently dominated by Dooku in every fight they have been in. And didn't Grievous beat Ventress early on which gave him the right to be the Droid Commander for the CIS or is that not canon cause I don't see anything contradicting it?

 

I give the edge to Maul simply because he has fought better duelists and was never thoroughly dominated (unless you count Sidious trying but hey only Mace Windu and Yoda in the PT were able to stand up to that.)

Its difficult to measure Maul if you haven't considered that Dooku was a replacement, Dooku is by far the strongest of all three: Maul, Ventress and Dooku

But Ventress is second only to Dooku, Maul would find ventress superior even in jar'kai, considering Dooku was planning to use ventress against Sideous proves how much she is capable of doing