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TK effusion as tier 2 skill


MusicRider

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Completely unneeded. If you're balance/hybrid, Psychic barrier + inner strength is more than enough. All your suggestion does is strengthen hybrid builds while providing no benefit to full build to which that tree belongs.

 

Spending 7 points on a tree and getting one tier 2 skill from that one hardly makes you a hybrid. And in the end of the day there is nothing wrong with hybrids. Dots can make you ROOF when full balance. Psychic barrier is not enough unless you consider good play spending 30secs spamming tk throw till you get your force pool up a bit. Noble sacrifice wastes gcd time and creates deadlocks due to the reduction in force regeneration. The change might not be necessarily needed but it would be nice as it is much better than reserve or concentration for force management, and makes more sense considering that balance hardly uses non-proced disturbance.

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The change might not be necessarily needed but it would be nice as it is much better than reserve or concentration for force management, and makes more sense considering that balance hardly uses non-proced disturbance.

 

The entire point is that TK Effusion is incredibly strong and would be *disgustingly* powerful for Balance Sages. The sheer number of DoTs and multi-tick attacks that a Balance Sage throws out would almost guarantee permanent or near permanent 50% cost. The fact that it's a tier 4 talent should pretty well indicate that it's not intended to be used for Balance Sages. The fact that it's better than Concentration or Mental Longevity also makes sense: just because it's strong doesn't mean that everyone should have it. If it *were* a tier 2 talent, I can pretty much guarantee you that *every* spec, including healers, would take it (healers would rock it so that they can rolling Weaken Mind on enemies and benefit from ~2 50% casts every 9 seconds or so, and it wouldn't even be out of their way). It's a tier 4 because only TK should be taking it.

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The entire point is that TK Effusion is incredibly strong and would be *disgustingly* powerful for Balance Sages. The sheer number of DoTs and multi-tick attacks that a Balance Sage throws out would almost guarantee permanent or near permanent 50% cost. The fact that it's a tier 4 talent should pretty well indicate that it's not intended to be used for Balance Sages. The fact that it's better than Concentration or Mental Longevity also makes sense: just because it's strong doesn't mean that everyone should have it. If it *were* a tier 2 talent, I can pretty much guarantee you that *every* spec, including healers, would take it (healers would rock it so that they can rolling Weaken Mind on enemies and benefit from ~2 50% casts every 9 seconds or so, and it wouldn't even be out of their way). It's a tier 4 because only TK should be taking it.

 

Totally agree that it is powerful, although it is not "disgustingly" powerful for balance :), simply because it will allow to carry on at the same pace that a balance sage has after 3-4 mins of freely casting his rotations before ROOF. It's not that it will make the damage, dps or burst go higher than the original levels. From the description you will see that it applies to any force attack and not to any tk specific making it particular to the tk tree (could be for example crit turbulence triggers effusion). This makes me thing that it is a skill that was meant for all trees, unlike concentration which benefits primarily and mostly the tk tree. My suggestion is a "light" one and certainly not in the form of whining. More in the lines of a small improvement that could benefit all sages/sorcs specs, and at least to me it makes sense.

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If you're doing balance right, you should spamming tk throw as you base attack anyway. It provides great baseline damage, is very force efficient, and gives you instant cast mind crush. If you're having force issues, its because you're force quaking and or projecting too much.
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It's not that it will make the damage, dps or burst go higher than the original levels.

 

You're operating under the illusion that the need to remain resource neutral *isn't* a factor in your DPS. It is. As such, removing that limitation would increase the DPS of the Balance spec without positively impacting TK in any way, acting as an overall buff to Balance's DPS. If you're running out of Force as Balance spec, you're doing it wrong. The fact that you want the most powerful Sage resource tool in addition to all of the stuff that Balance gets just makes it more apparent.

 

From the description you will see that it applies to any force attack and not to any tk specific making it particular to the tk tree (could be for example crit turbulence triggers effusion). This makes me thing that it is a skill that was meant for all trees, unlike concentration which benefits primarily and mostly the tk tree.

 

Just because you *read* it as an ability meant for all trees rather than actually looking at what would happen has no impact, especially since how you read it has *way* less impact on the actual intention of the ability compared to where it is in the tree. If the developers intended on Telekinetic Effusion to be used by all specs, they probably would have put it where all specs could get it easily. They didn't. As such, they probably didn't intend for anyone except for TK to get it. The only reason it doesn't specifically mention the TK attacks is probably because it's kinda pointless to list *every single* cast that TK should/would be using (TkT, TkW, Weaken Mind, Disturbance, Turbulence, and Force Quake; potentially Project too depending on whether they thought that TK should/would be using it on the run) rather than just saying "all"; once you get beyond ~3-4 abilities, it's better to just say "all" and be done with it, because that's honestly what you're really saying.

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If you're doing balance right, you should spamming tk throw as you base attack anyway. It provides great baseline damage, is very force efficient, and gives you instant cast mind crush. If you're having force issues, its because you're force quaking and or projecting too much.

 

Have to disagree with you there. Spamming tk throw is force efficient but it is hardly your most efficient damage output and playing balance right. Project on the other hand can do near 4k instant when crit and when proc, so of course it should be used. Don't often use earthquake (certainly not on less than 3 people) as it lacks burst. Also ROOF comes from frequent use of weaken mind which for some reason you did not mention and it is one of the key abilities of balance.

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You're operating under the illusion that the need to remain resource neutral *isn't* a factor in your DPS. It is. As such, removing that limitation would increase the DPS of the Balance spec without positively impacting TK in any way, acting as an overall buff to Balance's DPS. If you're running out of Force as Balance spec, you're doing it wrong. The fact that you want the most powerful Sage resource tool in addition to all of the stuff that Balance gets just makes it more apparent.

Actually if you are not running out of force in balance it means that probably you are spamming tk throw all the time. Hardly your highest dps play. But hey, you have a full force pool.

 

Just because you *read* it as an ability meant for all trees rather than actually looking at what would happen has no impact, especially since how you read it has *way* less impact on the actual intention of the ability compared to where it is in the tree. If the developers intended on Telekinetic Effusion to be used by all specs, they probably would have put it where all specs could get it easily. They didn't. As such, they probably didn't intend for anyone except for TK to get it. The only reason it doesn't specifically mention the TK attacks is probably because it's kinda pointless to list *every single* cast that TK should/would be using (TkT, TkW, Weaken Mind, Disturbance, Turbulence, and Force Quake; potentially Project too depending on whether they thought that TK should/would be using it on the run) rather than just saying "all"; once you get beyond ~3-4 abilities, it's better to just say "all" and be done with it, because that's honestly what you're really saying.

So basically you are happy with brainless force management in tk and hybrids, and a ROOF balance?

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Have to disagree with you there. Spamming tk throw is force efficient but it is hardly your most efficient damage output and playing balance right. Project on the other hand can do near 4k instant when crit and when proc, so of course it should be used. Don't often use earthquake (certainly not on less than 3 people) as it lacks burst. Also ROOF comes from frequent use of weaken mind which for some reason you did not mention and it is one of the key abilities of balance.

 

I don't mention weaken mind or force in balance as abilities because they're a basic part of balance. Yes you're going to maintain your weaken mind, yes you use force in balance as soon as its off cool down, and yes you use mind crush as soon as its both off cool down and you have presence of mind proc. Everything in between is telekinetic throw for me.

 

However after reading how you talk multiple people and burst it sounds like you're talking more about PvP while I am talking more about PvE. In PvE, you don't spam extra weaken minds around on additional targets. In PvE, I wouldn't even put points into Upheaval because project is not a sustainable ability. In PvP, you're half expected to die before ROOF anyway. So, you might as well spend those points, project to your heart's content, and weaken mind every target you see. In the end, the change you suggestion would probably make you go a little longer before having to resort to tk spam. I still strongly disagree with the change because resource management is meant to be a key part of the combat system. The change would completely trivialize that for every sage spec in a way that I don't think is good for the game.

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Yes it was mostly written from a pvp perspective although some bosses in pve have made me ROOF or go near (e.g. Kephess in Terror). Apologies for the mis-clarification. In pvp it does happen to live long enough to go ROOF and stalemates can happen. With the same play if I go hybrid I can't remember ever ROOF unless I bubble stun teammates and even then it takes longer than actually playing full balance attack. And the only difference is effusion in terms of force management. I agree that effusion results in brainless force management in balance, but the same applies for tk and hybrids. I suggested this as the only quick solution but I don't think it is the very best one. Although if effusion was reducing for 20-30% the cost and was moved in tier 2 it might be a fair exchange.
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Have to disagree with you there. Spamming tk throw is force efficient but it is hardly your most efficient damage output and playing balance right. Project on the other hand can do near 4k instant when crit and when proc, so of course it should be used. Don't often use earthquake (certainly not on less than 3 people) as it lacks burst. Also ROOF comes from frequent use of weaken mind which for some reason you did not mention and it is one of the key abilities of balance.

 

Telekinetic Throw = 4 * (0.079 * 1610 + 0.79 * Bonus) / 2

Project = (avg(0.165, 0.205) * 1610 + 1.85 * Bonus) + 0.50 * (avg(0.073, 0.113) * 1610 + 0.925 * Bonus)

 

In terms of DPS, yes, Project is better than Telekinetic Throw. However, in terms of DPF, there's absolutely no contest. Project costs an ENORMOUS amount relative to its damage, whereas Telekinetic Throw is significantly mana-positive. Project should really be reserved for movement phases, and then only if you're *absolutely* confident in your mana pool.

 

Regarding Weaken Mind, as long as you aren't clipping and you have the 21 second duration, I can't see how you would go OOM refreshing your dots on cooldown. The only possibility really is that you're wasting time and force by burning the Presence of Mind proc on Disturbance (which should be removed from your bar).

 

With respect to the proposal itself, this would *massively* unbalance the Balance tree in terms of DPS output. Balance would suddenly be able to use Project on CD, which would be huge. TK Effusion belongs exactly where it currently sits: out of reach of both Balance and Hybrid builds.

Edited by KeyboardNinja
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Yes from a pve perspective I do agree with some of the points. From a pvp point of view this is totally not true. Both project and disturbance have their places in terms of single target burst and pressure, Also every hybrid takes effusion, at least 1 point is more than enough to make you not ROOF. Edited by MusicRider
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Yes from a pve perspective I do agree with some of the points. From a pvp point of view this is totally not true. Both project and disturbance have their places in terms of single target burst and pressure, Also every hybrid takes effusion, at least 1 point is more than enough to make you not ROOF.

 

I'm not sure if you've looked at the sage hybrids since the last skill tree readjustment, but there is no currently viable sage DPS hybrid which takes TK Effusion. The standard hybrid build, and really the only one that is viable right now, is 1/12/28. In order to get TK Effusion, you would have to give up the DoT enhancing talents in the Balance tree, which is a MASSIVE loss in DPS. Being able to use Project on cooldown doesn't even come close to offsetting the loss of these talents.

 

Now, there may be some PvP healer hybrids that take TK Effusion, but I have a hard time seeing it. Such builds are not viable in PvE at all.

 

Oh, and regarding Disturbance… Seriously, cut it out of your rotation. Its burst is lower than just spending that GCD on another Telekinetic Throw, and it's a far weaker skill than Project if you're kiting. The only time you really might use it is when Project is on cooldown and you NEED to move. Even then, it's pretty unlikely that you're going to see that situation without having Mind Crush or Force in Balance up.

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