Got a little distracted, so I wrote this up. I tried to make it so that it's my opinion on matters that are happening and the use of "we" is when the discussions in this and other threads are being brought up, but I tried not to appear as though I am some sort of magical spokesperson for all of this. Any (constructive) input would be gratefully received.

 

Of course I did also already send this off :x

Look at this way: Mr. Musco said that [Flirt]s and romance options would be balanced across faction and gender, so say there are eight new romance options coming in an expansion and they're world romances - there would be four options for male characters and four options for female characters. Going by what has been done up until now, three of the four male options would be women and one would be male. For the sake of argument, the female options would be split 50/50, but the female-female romances would be with be bisexual females who are also available as male romance options. Now, this does not affect the individual story experience, but objectively, this says that gay male romances are rare and marginalized and that female NPCs should be made available to straight male characters/gamers, regardless.

It is rare. But so is having red hair (which btw as a red head, seems rare in TOR). The feeling of being marginalized is a different, and will vary person to person.

You also forgot to mention, why is it one can kill off the gay male NPC, or made him a Sith to link him to the Darkside, to equate darkside to being gay, for the very first gay npc.

Though your letter makes me wonder, would the male players have gotten up in arms about a female npc they couldn't romance? Or is this just some peoples thinking that's why they made her bi (which suprised me, thought she was strictly F/F). Would be interresting to hear from male players and if they would have cared.

Or to make it really simple, the game itself can't tell if you're unattrative! And it's likely a lot more work for them to go about going "script this so this NPC won't go after any Pure Blood Sith with face tentacle, or are body type 4 males, or faces this through this"

 

You know, complicate things up, to the point that it creates a bug that has people whining it messed up some other part of the game, because someone accidently did this or that to the code.

Exactly my point. We are never going to be rid of herosexuality simply because what is required to make it happen is expensive from a resources point of view. (Because if you're taking some options away from some character types, you need to provide other opportunities just to be fair - and that's an awful lot of combinations of character species, alignment, looks, and gender to take account of!)

Having said that, maybe we can (or even should) have romances where gender is a factor taken into account, and some companions are gay, some straight, some bi, and some lesbian... and maybe even a couple are trans* as well. But that won't make the romances any less herosexual than they are already.

Though your letter makes me wonder, would the male players have gotten up in arms about a female npc they couldn't romance? Or is this just some peoples thinking that's why they made her bi (which suprised me, thought she was strictly F/F). Would be interresting to hear from male players and if they would have cared.

It's happened before. Some male poster got all up in arms because he thought the romances of DA2 didn't cater to the "straight white male gamer" well enough. So it wouldn't surprise me to see it again, though probably not for this game because it seems to be more of a fringe issue (despite how important it is to some of us here in this thread).

Okay, I'm not going to get into this argument other than to say that in the vast majority of cases 'herosexuality' relates, as a term, directly to the context of gender preferences. Making it about whether someone has large breasts or red hair or a certain skin tone is needlessly confusing the issue.

I don't think that it is, honestly, at least as far as alignment goes. I think that alignment is every bit as important a factor as gender, probably more so in some cases. As a LS agent, Jan'neria is not going to fall in bed/love with another woman she finds needlessly cruel and violent (i.e.: Dark Side aligned) - this SHOULD work vice versa. (If they make Kaliyo the sole same gender romance for IA females, Jan'neria is going to be lonely forever.)

I don't think that it is, honestly, at least as far as alignment goes. I think that alignment is every bit as important a factor as gender, probably more so in some cases. As a LS agent, Jan'neria is not going to fall in bed/love with another woman she finds needlessly cruel and violent (i.e.: Dark Side aligned) - this SHOULD work vice versa. (If they make Kaliyo the sole same gender romance for IA females, Jan'neria is going to be lonely forever.)

Light Side/Dark Side, sure. That I agree with, and they've already started playing with that. I'd love to see more of it. But I never said a thing about someone's personality or their Force leanings. I was talking about physical aspects, which is a portion of what was being discussed above. And I do believe that IS complicating things needlessly because those are elements that the game will never take into account, both because there are too many variables and because basic things like species and ethnicity are literally cosmetic options in SWTOR. With nothing separating the species but a single social emote, a few outfit options and a 3D model there's no realistic point to taking those aspects into account.

When I said that herosexuality and specific sexuality are two models diametrically opposed to each other (for the most part) I was referring specifically to (as I thought was obvious) gender preferences. In my opinion a DS/LS flag is separate to that because it will completely override a gender preference in any case. A sexuality flag and an alignment flag can work independently. In fact they should work independently because then the alignment flag can be used to affect conversation and interaction in all sorts of ways that have nothing to do with romance.

(If they make Kaliyo the sole same gender romance for IA females, Jan'neria is going to be lonely forever.)

If they don't make Kira SGR compatible then my JK will probably be flying solo too.

It's happened before. Some male poster got all up in arms because he thought the romances of DA2 didn't cater to the "straight white male gamer" well enough. So it wouldn't surprise me to see it again, though probably not for this game because it seems to be more of a fringe issue (despite how important it is to some of us here in this thread).

Hmmm...I might recall that post, it was in the other thread, correct?

I guess no matter what BW does, they will always have someone up in arms about any and all choices made. :/

Goodness, I shouldn't have gotten my characters involved with the short romances because they really were short and they've dredged up all these questions and uncertainty about the whole thing.

I feel pretty disappointed about my characters not being able to take Cytharat home with them at the end of the day but I can see why it wouldn't work.

Saying that I am grateful to have had the opportunity to see that side of my characters. Hopefully this is the beginning of a decent amount of SGR content to come. (I heard that said somewhere but can't remember where). The majority of my characters being homosexual means I've only ever done 1 romance (Quinn) in this game thus far.

A few months back I wrote here that the idea of having a future companion as the 'SRG companion' would cause issues with certain people in the community. But now we've had a little taste of that in Makeb and people haven't mass quit over it, it's made me wonder whether BW will just take the route of adding a new companion for SGR content to save them re-doing the current companion romances. Which would make a number of people hacked-off I'm sure BW are aware...

But when I think about it, I'm still very baffled at how SGR content has been handled in this game. It's not like it's something BW have never done before and I can't understand why they only did one-sided options in Makeb. It's almost like they used Makeb as a taster to see how players would react to it. Also that they dedicated the romance storylines to SGR in the first place. Was it easier and quicker to develop? was it just to throw us a bone as if to say 'here have some SGR content, now you can't say we've not included it in the game'. Also the Cytharat death option almost felt like an apology to the straight male gamers that make up the majority 'we're sorry you had to deal with flirts from a homosexual character, here's the option to kill him off'. Very odd. I even saw someone in chat saying they were glad to have killed him because they felt their male character would get 'bummed' otherwise, even though that would go against how Cytharat behaves and who he is.

Sorry that got a little ranty but I haven't posted here in a while and not having a blog or anyone I talk about with this I felt like I needed somewhere to get it off my chest

. Also the Cytharat death option almost felt like an apology to the straight male gamers that make up the majority 'we're sorry you had to deal with flirts from a homosexual character, here's the option to kill him off'. Very odd. I even saw someone in chat saying they were glad to have killed him because they felt their male character would get 'bummed' otherwise, even though that would go against how Cytharat behaves and who he is.

That's why I wonder whether these romances were initially written and designed from the perspective of having SGR/A's in the game already. Whether they intended to or not, having the first (and only) gay male in the game being someone you can kill off sends rather confusing messages. Particularly when, as you say, people are using this an opportunity to exercise their homophobia.

It's all very well and good saying that Bioware are treating the gay and bisexual individuals (as far as I'm aware this game has no lesbians as yet) in the same way they are treating their straight NPCs, but the representation in this game does not exist in a vacuum, it has further reaching connotations. I've only one male character and he romanced Lord Cytharat, but I don't believe that male characters can learn of Lord Cytharat's previous allegiances until after the life-or-death incident. This adds further to your idea that Lord Cytharat's death is an apology to the straight gamers who got their fee-fees hurt by the fact there are gay options in the game now. Of course Bioware cannot comment on this and people will jump to their defense on the point I just mentioned - and I am sure Bioware did not mean it to come across as apologetic or willfully ignorant of the passive and active violence directed at LGBT persons in media, but I still think it's important to talk about. It's important because the thing most people are going to remember about Lord Cytharat is that he's gay, not that he's your Tactical Adviser or that he was apprenticed to a traitor - he will be reduced in memory to his sexuality, at a time when representation is lacking or half-manifested, and when the violence involved is unlikely to be separated from that reduction.

This is not to say that NPCs who come from the LGBT spectrum should be coddled and protected, but that the decisions made about them should be done with care and consideration to what they represent, both to the audience that supports them and the one who abhors them.

That's why I wonder whether these romances were initially written and designed from the perspective of having SGR/A's in the game already. Whether they intended to or not, having the first (and only) gay male in the game being someone you can kill off sends rather confusing messages. Particularly when, as you say, people are using this an opportunity to exercise their homophobia.

 

It's all very well and good saying that Bioware are treating the gay and bisexual individuals (as far as I'm aware this game has no lesbians as yet) in the same way they are treating their straight NPCs, but the representation in this game does not exist in a vacuum, it has further reaching connotations. I've only one male character and he romanced Lord Cytharat, but I don't believe that male characters can learn of Lord Cytharat's previous allegiances until after the life-or-death incident. This adds further to your idea that Lord Cytharat's death is an apology to the straight gamers who got their fee-fees hurt by the fact there are gay options in the game now. Of course Bioware cannot comment on this and people will jump to their defense on the point I just mentioned - and I am sure Bioware did not mean it to come across as apologetic or willfully ignorant of the passive and active violence directed at LGBT persons in media, but I still think it's important to talk about. It's important because the thing most people are going to remember about Lord Cytharat is that he's gay, not that he's your Tactical Adviser or that he was apprenticed to a traitor - he will be reduced in memory to his sexuality, at a time when representation is lacking or half-manifested, and when the violence involved is unlikely to be separated from that reduction.

 

This is not to say that NPCs who come from the LGBT spectrum should be coddled and protected, but that the decisions made about them should be done with care and consideration to what they represent, both to the audience that supports them and the one who abhors them.

If you're of the thought that all people remember of Lord Cytharat, is that he's gay, what do you think Lemda will be remembered as, as she's the other NPC to be part of the LGBT community.

I'm still hella annoyed that my lesbian Sith Marauder can't get any action... because she's IMPERIAL... and they made a single GAY FEMALE on REPUBLIC side and a single GAY MALE on IMPERIAL. That was seriously lazy IMO.

Course, I'm not 100% set on her being lesbian (mostly because when I made her I wasn't even sure what SGR options we'd ever have, still aren't), I just despise Malavai Quinn and refuse to have her flirt with him, in fact I tell him to shut up and get back to work and generally keep having to give him gifts to keep him out of the negatives LOL I've had her flirting with Lieutenant Pierce a bit, so hey maybe she's turning out to be bisexual. with a preference for women, or maybe she's just lonely because there are no lesbians in Imperial space.

I'm still hella annoyed that my lesbian Sith Marauder can't get any action... because she's IMPERIAL... and they made a single GAY FEMALE on REPUBLIC side and a single GAY MALE on IMPERIAL. That was seriously lazy IMO.

 

Course, I'm not 100% set on her being lesbian (mostly because when I made her I wasn't even sure what SGR options we'd ever have, still aren't), I just despise Malavai Quinn and refuse to have her flirt with him, in fact I tell him to shut up and get back to work and generally keep having to give him gifts to keep him out of the negatives LOL I've had her flirting with Lieutenant Pierce a bit, so hey maybe she's turning out to be bisexual. with a preference for women, or maybe she's just lonely because there are no lesbians in Imperial space.

Yeah, Mr. Musco wasn't exactly clear when he said that future romance options will be "balanced across faction and gender" whether or not that would also apply to sexuality. I'm assuming it won't.

Yeah, Mr. Musco wasn't exactly clear when he said that future romance options will be "balanced across faction and gender" whether or not that would also apply to sexuality. I'm assuming it won't.

You mean you are assuming we'll get no more LGBT options?

You mean you are assuming we'll get no more LGBT options?

No, that the distribution won't be equal.

I've only one male character and he romanced Lord Cytharat, but I don't believe that male characters can learn of Lord Cytharat's previous allegiances until after the life-or-death incident.

My male warrior had the option of asking him when first introduced, but my male agent didn't have that dialogue choice.

My male warrior had the option of asking him when first introduced, but my male agent didn't have that dialogue choice.

Probably a Sith thing then, which makes sense.

Whether they intended to or not, having the first (and only) gay male in the game being someone you can kill off sends rather confusing messages. Particularly when, as you say, people are using this an opportunity to exercise their homophobia.

1. Are you seriouly entertainig the thought that they made Lord Cytharat expendable because he is gay?

2. If yes: How about that blonde logistics women in charge, whos death cant be prevented (at least afaik) at all? Are you confused about any secret message Bioware might be wanting to send with her death as well? Would you rumble about confusing messages as well if she had turned out to be lesbian?

3. Has it occurred to you that Lord Cytharat`s life maybe in peril only because a (potential) love interest in distress is not a uncommon story arc?

1. Are you seriouly entertainig the thought that they made Lord Cytharat expendable because he is gay?

I can't speak for Tatile, but no. If anything, it's probably a coincidence. However, there was a time not all that long ago when it was pretty common for gay characters to come to a bad end (Bury Your Gays), and I think people are a little sensitive to the trope still.

The truth of storytelling is that sometimes you must kill your darlings, and sometimes those darlings happen to be gay.

2. If yes: How about that blonde logistics women in charge, whos death cant be prevented (at least afaik) at all? Are you confused about any secret message Bioware might be wanting to send with her death as well? Would you rumble about confusing messages as well if she had turned out to be lesbian?

If Katha Niar was also gay, and both she and Cytharat were able to be killed... it wouldn't look good. (As it is, the female/female option Repubic side is actually bisexual, so no gay ladies were introduced with RotHC.)

(By the way, do you think we should be using spoiler tags for this conversation? I know I haven't finished Imperial Makeb yet (and haven't even got within spitting distance of Republic Makeb), I'm sure there are others in the same position. I don't particularly care about spoilers, but others might.)

Spoiler Tags at Kioma's request.

I can't speak for Tatile, but no. If anything, it's probably a coincidence. However, there was a time not all that long ago when it was pretty common for gay characters to come to a bad end (Bury Your Gays), and I think people are a little sensitive to the trope still.

I just had to go through the tv series in that link to see if they have anything to say about Torchwood... xD Funny.

But anyway, personally I don't think

. I'd say more like that he's nice and sweet AND a romance option - and that actually just makes the decision harder. Took the light side option with my sniper, and I already regret that with my assassin, I'll probably have to take ds option, or otherwise my assassin with dark V would be out of character.

Probably a Sith thing then, which makes sense.

Yep...

Jenovan, my female Sith Inquisitor was able to ask the question, but it was in the same place on the dialogue wheel as the [Flirt] for male characters, hence my confusion.

they're not that stupid, I just feel that some of their decisions are either based in a game that doesn't exist or done without further insight (like the plethora of damnable dancer and slave gear that's only for female characters, ugh.)

It's all very well and good writing with blinkers, but your players aren't wearing them.