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800 to 900 dps where?

 

On pretty much any boss without a large amount of tank downtime. 900 is the top end of what I can pull, but I regularly manage in ~800. Keep in mind, I also built myself to generate maximum threat without influencing my mitigation. However, even on my VG and Guardian alt tanks, I'm pulling over 700 DPS on bosses, as is my Guardian co-tank. If you're only pulling 500 DPS on a fight where a sent can manage 2k+, your tank is just bad.

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On pretty much any boss without a large amount of tank downtime. 900 is the top end of what I can pull, but I regularly manage in ~800. Keep in mind, I also built myself to generate maximum threat without influencing my mitigation. However, even on my VG and Guardian alt tanks, I'm pulling over 700 DPS on bosses, as is my Guardian co-tank. If you're only pulling 500 DPS on a fight where a sent can manage 2k+, your tank is just bad.

 

Agreed. My VG tank alt is pulling close to 500 in most fights now and he's no where near optimized or running the higher lvl raids yet. The only reason I'm losing aggro to any of my guild mates is that they are still way further ahead of that toon on gear.

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I suggest you NEVER complain when someone's work isn't bad. You never complain about bugs, too, I guess :)

Lazy coding is just when a dev doesn't prepare a solution for a given situation. I can remember a few games, here are a few examples :

 

In Valkyrie Profile, when you fail hard, Ferya isn't "happy" and attacks you. This fight should be impossible to win, but with a decent team, you can beat her. but even if you do, the video is the same as if you lost, Freya is telling Odin how she "solved" the problem.

In Valkirye profile, Covenant of the pume, if you use the Plume too much, Freya comes (again) for a fight. she's unkillable without cheats, but with cheats you can kill her, but you still get a wonderful Game Over as if you died.

In Phantasy Star 2, you are fighting Dark Force early in the game. Everything is made to make you lose and one of your companions die to save you. But if you kill him, the game resumes but you are trapped in the dungeon and cannot do anything.

 

But I can give you some counter-examples : in Chrno Trigger, you have to fight Lavos before early in the game. You are supposed to lose, but if you win, you are getting a special ending.

In False Emperor, if you go alone, Malgus, instead of saying that one of us are woved to join the new Empire, make a comment about how coming alone is bold and foolish.

None of those games are MMOs (lets keep this apples to apples yes?) and why in the world would you solo FE?? I take it you are so overgreared that you're doing the storymode? Why does anyone do storymode FE (except for the HK part)?

 

A "bug" (in fact, a lazy coding), that makes the fight a lot easier than designed, will be corrected, I don't understand how you can accept that a lazy coding (or a "bug") that makes the fight harder than designed. Who you accept that, if your tank doesn't take enough damage, the boss enrages just after the start of he fight ? Would ask your tank to remove some pieces of stuff ?

And I don't understand why you have such a problem holding back DPS so you don't encounter a harder fight. I mean, it should be simple right? Just stop pressing buttons for a few seconds. There's no reason why everyone in your raid should be doing KEYBOARD FACE SMASH!! ARGH! ARGH! ARGH! *SLAM* *SLAM* *SLAM*

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800 to 900 dps where? On a dummy or overall during a fight? Because if you're pulling 800 dps overall during a fight I call bull. The only time ever do even remotely close to 900 DPS Overall is during HM Kephass the Undying, otherwise I'm doing around 500-700 DPS Overall per fight, Firebrand being my current non-mechanically augmented best fight with 712 DPS overall.

 

On Topic:

 

Too much DPS can and does break certain fights, primarily Toth & Zorn and The Writhing Horror.

 

In Toth & Zorn we've had DPS push the Phases (which are based off of percentage which I feel is rather dumb) so far that at mechanics occur 15-20 seconds (at most like 45 on SM fun raids) before certain cooldowns finish (Stun breaker and Deflection for Shadows) causing me personally to be at the Whims of RNG during Berserk or having to take a Spike during a Red Circle phase. Not to mention Fearful not falling off before the next swap.

 

In The Writhing Horror the point where DPS breaks the fight is when you push the boss under 15% while the third Jealous Mate is still up and the incoming damage is just too high for the healers and tanks to be able to keep up.

 

Definitely, my jugg has over 1800 strength and does 500-700 dps on most fights. Most sins range between 650-750 or so. PT's a bit lower.

As I said, as a carnage Mara my threat goes in 4k-6.5k+ spikes, so it's not too uncommon to have me rip my tanks aggro a few times even with guard during the first minute or so of a fight. (On my last run of NiM EC F&S, I ran 2.4k dps until the 1st shield phase, realistically no tank, no matter how good they are is going to be able to hold aggro reliably through that entire duration. Bad tanks are pathetically bad though, ripping 6+ times etc... Any good Mara knows this.

 

I do have a counter to your last statement though, we did manage to push the burn phase of writhing horror this past week before the 3rd jealous male with a PT/Sniper/Mara/Merc DPS combo. I stayed on the boss the entire time, didn't touch adds while other DPS torched the two males and adds.

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On my last run of NiM EC F&S, I ran 2.4k dps until the 1st shield phase, realistically no tank, no matter how good they are is going to be able to hold aggro reliably through that entire duration.

 

I *really* wish we were on the same faction and server. I love going up against massive threat hogs to see if they can actually pull off of me: I've made a bet with my guild that I will pay 100k into the gbank every time a DPS pulls threat off of me on a boss fight; thus far, only 1 person has ever done it and it was a PT VG blowing all of his CDs at once while getting a really lucky string of crits and he just *barely* managed it since he was standing in the melee threat range; it took me all of 5 seconds to get it back without using Taunt and he didn't even have a Guard on him.

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In The Writhing Horror the point where DPS breaks the fight is when you push the boss under 15% while the third Jealous Mate is still up and the incoming damage is just too high for the healers and tanks to be able to keep up.

 

My group regularly starts the burn phase before the third male appears. We may have wiped the first time (I don't really remember), but it hasn't been an issue since. Just kill the boss and then deal with the male. Things might get exciting if you swap tanks and spawn adds during the burn phase, so don't do that (although it sounds as though IamViolent's group did just that and got through it fine, so maybe do that if you like excitement).

 

Z&T, yeah. But that's easily solved by having one person per side paying attention to the bosses and calling out when it's time to pause dps.

Edited by mxlm
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Just an FYi, arguing with Kitru 99% chance your gonna lose, guy knows his sh*t. I'm sure he could post logs up here to support him.

 

Theorycrafting isn't the same as performance. There are people out there that have grouped/guilded with him and know exactly what he can and can't do.

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He can post logs of maintaining 3k+ tps for 30 seconds without a taunt... Uh huh. At the moment, I'm running as the highest dps on our server, I'd love to see a tank that never loses aggro because I want one on our server.

 

Hmmm. you lost your credibility when you said "highest DPS on my server". did you checed against EVEY SINGLE PLAYER on your server (both sides) ?

 

With my Shadow, Rakata Hilt, 2 DG piece + 2 Armoring (Wrist and Waist), my logs are saying that I can be around 2K, 2.2K TPS without taunting. I wouldn't be so surprised if a better Shadow can reach 3K TPS within the first 30s of the fight, even if he needs to use a DPS relic.

 

And by the way, I'd really like to see a log with more than 3K TPS (from your DPS, of course) over 30s :)

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Hmmm. you lost your credibility when you said "highest DPS on my server". did you checed against EVEY SINGLE PLAYER on your server (both sides) ?

 

With my Shadow, Rakata Hilt, 2 DG piece + 2 Armoring (Wrist and Waist), my logs are saying that I can be around 2K, 2.2K TPS without taunting. I wouldn't be so surprised if a better Shadow can reach 3K TPS within the first 30s of the fight, even if he needs to use a DPS relic.

 

And by the way, I'd really like to see a log with more than 3K TPS (from your DPS, of course) over 30s :)

 

Our server runs a pve dps competition, I'm currently on top and on torparses' statistics I'm the top single target dps for the server in raid, and one of the top ones in the world. As for maintaining 3k tps as a tank, it's not mathematically possible without the use of taunts as per class mechanics. My point here, is that if your dps aren't pulling; they're not very good. Or you have no burst specs. Either or. If there is such a thing as a tank that has a threat opener of over 6.5k that then falls off to 3kish, I will personally bow to them, but realistically; that's just not possible.

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Theorycrafting isn't the same as performance. There are people out there that have grouped/guilded with him and know exactly what he can and can't do.

 

The only time you ever "pulled threat" off of me on a boss was HM LI where you misinterpreted the boss target swapping for Experimental Cannon as actually gaining threat. I didn't use Taunt a single time that fight and somehow managed to get back threat within seconds of you "stealing aggro" from me both times that it happened. If you *had* actually stolen threat from me, it would've taken longer than 3 seconds to actually accomplish it. If it were a question of raw threat generation and Force Cloak dropping you to zero, even without doing any further damage, it would have taken longer than 45 seconds for you to actually generate sufficient threat to pull said threat *again* since it occurred more than a minute into the fight.

 

Just because you don't know what's going on with the target's threat doesn't mean that I don't.

 

Also, it's important to not that a tank doesn't actually have to generate more TPS than their DPS. Because of the 130% requirement to steal threat (assuming people don't just stand around inside the target's model), a tank only needs to manage 77% of the TPS as everyone else in order to not lose aggro once it's been gained. As such, if you're pulling 4k burst DPS, a tank only needs to manage 3.1k TPS to not lose threat (though I *highly* doubt you're actually pulling 4k DPS for anything longer than a 1-2 consecutive GCDs) for that burst phase. When I drop my FP + TkT, I'm pulling 3.1k TPS so, even if you *are* managing to dump out massive DPS in that short period of time, I would still be able to keep it off of you.

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even a 500 - 650 dps tank with smart usage of taunts can keep threat off. The only troubles would be at the start, give them a little leeway and then should have no problems.

 

Never had myself even tho I never stacked str, barely 1700 strength with defense spec.

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Our server runs a pve dps competition, I'm currently on top and on torparses' statistics I'm the top single target dps for the server in raid, and one of the top ones in the world. As for maintaining 3k tps as a tank, it's not mathematically possible without the use of taunts as per class mechanics. My point here, is that if your dps aren't pulling; they're not very good. Or you have no burst specs. Either or. If there is such a thing as a tank that has a threat opener of over 6.5k that then falls off to 3kish, I will personally bow to them, but realistically; that's just not possible.

 

Ok, let's play.

Here is your best DPS on Firebrand and Stormcaller on Torparse

Let's read it :

After 10s, you had a DPS of 2549. Far from 3K+. then, you used your stealth to reduce aggro. After 30s, you were close of 2K DPS. Still very far from 3K+.

 

One one of your last log, your highest DPS is 2683, after 8 seconds. Still not 3K, and not even close of 6.5K. after 30s, a bit less than 2.3K. Still far from 3K. Even without guard, if you don't take damage withing the first 30s, in that fight, a god shadow can keep the boss without taunt.

 

Your "legend" about 6K DPS is funny. And i''ll add, since you like to taunt : if your tank taunts only when the boss targets someone else, he isn't very good.

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I will give you that, we do have a sin tank in guild that is truly difficult for me to pull from, but I do still pull at least once or twice a pull. Also, as carnage those 4.5s burst windows do average out to being half of your damage in the spec. Looking at a DPS over time chart, you can see upwards of 4k bursts at every CD of it. Of course, if their is no reason for me to keep force camo, I'll use it just before a big part of my rotation; so that A) I won't pull, and B) if I do; I don't use it and the tank then taunts it from me and gains absolutely 0 threat.
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Ok, let's play.

Here is your best DPS on Firebrand and Stormcaller on Torparse

Let's read it :

After 10s, you had a DPS of 2549. Far from 3K+. then, you used your stealth to reduce aggro. After 30s, you were close of 2K DPS. Still very far from 3K+.

 

One one of your last log, your highest DPS is 2683, after 8 seconds. Still not 3K, and not even close of 6.5K. after 30s, a bit less than 2.3K. Still far from 3K. Even without guard, if you don't take damage withing the first 30s, in that fight, a god shadow can keep the boss without taunt.

 

Your "legend" about 6K DPS is funny. And i''ll add, since you like to taunt : if your tank taunts only when the boss targets someone else, he isn't very good.

 

Looking at that log, it was from me being in full 61's, the week I came back to the game and my guild gave me a run in NiM EC.

 

Here's what my first 20s in full 63's, even on a ****** parse looks like.

http://www.torparse.com/a/96305/time/1357969279/1357969299/0/Damage+Dealt

 

Notice the nearly 2k difference on my ravage crit, and scream crit? Little bit of difference.

 

If a tank can maintain 2.6k tps, after 20s without using DPS relics, or some ridiculousness like that, Ill bite. if a tank can prove that with a log, I will concede and agree that they are the best tank to play any MMO ever; as I've yet to see one that can hold threat during that 20s without a taunt.

 

 

Also, just for *****; I want you to look at this. This is from my guilds down of NiM F&S this week.

http://www.torparse.com/a/94469/time/1357788633/1357789002/0/Damage+Dealt

I start the pull with the WRONG form, completely stop doing anything 10s into the pull swap form; and end the fight with 1956 dps. This would put me in the top 5 for that boss, with a huge stop like that. The only reason it wont, is as you can see by clicking on the unedited version of the pull in torparse, it registered me as staying in combat with the next pull of trash after the boss (My combat log does occasionally glitch out).

Edited by IAmViiOLENT
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The only time you ever "pulled threat" off of me on a boss was HM LI where you misinterpreted the boss target swapping for Experimental Cannon as actually gaining threat. I didn't use Taunt a single time that fight and somehow managed to get back threat within seconds of you "stealing aggro" from me both times that it happened. If you *had* actually stolen threat from me, it would've taken longer than 3 seconds to actually accomplish it. If it were a question of raw threat generation and Force Cloak dropping you to zero, even without doing any further damage, it would have taken longer than 45 seconds for you to actually generate sufficient threat to pull said threat *again* since it occurred more than a minute into the fight.

 

Just because you don't know what's going on with the target's threat doesn't mean that I don't.

 

Also, it's important to not that a tank doesn't actually have to generate more TPS than their DPS. Because of the 130% requirement to steal threat (assuming people don't just stand around inside the target's model), a tank only needs to manage 77% of the TPS as everyone else in order to not lose aggro once it's been gained. As such, if you're pulling 4k burst DPS, a tank only needs to manage 3.1k TPS to not lose threat (though I *highly* doubt you're actually pulling 4k DPS for anything longer than a 1-2 consecutive GCDs) for that burst phase. When I drop my FP + TkT, I'm pulling 3.1k TPS so, even if you *are* managing to dump out massive DPS in that short period of time, I would still be able to keep it off of you.

 

It has nothing to do with the times I may or may not have pulled threat from you, it has to do with the times I never even got the chance to because we would bring other tanks over you for progression content.

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Looking at that log, it was from me being in full 61's, the week I came back to the game and my guild gave me a run in NiM EC.

 

Here's what my first 20s in full 63's, even on a ****** parse looks like.

http://www.torparse.com/a/96305/time/1357969279/1357969299/0/Damage+Dealt

 

 

Dummy ---> fail. Do you often starts a REAL fight with Ravage within the first second ?

 

Notice the nearly 2k difference on my ravage crit, and scream crit? Little bit of difference.

 

If a tank can maintain 2.6k tps, after 20s without using DPS relics, or some ridiculousness like that, Ill bite. if a tank can prove that with a log, I will concede and agree that they are the best tank to play any MMO ever; as I've yet to see one that can hold threat during that 20s without a taunt.

 

 

Also, just for *****; I want you to look at this. This is from my guilds down of NiM F&S this week.

http://www.torparse.com/a/94469/time/1357788633/1357789002/0/Damage+Dealt

I start the pull with the WRONG form, completely stop doing anything 10s into the pull swap form; and end the fight with 1956 dps. This would put me in the top 5 for that boss, with a huge stop like that. The only reason it wont, is as you can see by clicking on the unedited version of the pull in torparse, it registered me as staying in combat with the next pull of trash after the boss (My combat log does occasionally glitch out).

 

2.6K over 20S ? You aren't even close of that. please, stop throwing stupid numbers, when your own logs doesn't prove them. Let's check what your log REALLY says :

 

-Your highest TPs is 1680. Without guard, you'd be at 2240. Not even close of 3K. I wouldn't be surprised if a decent shadow tank can reach that score, I'm close with only 4 armorings 27, 2 mods 27, 2 enhancements 27 and one hilt 25, without using a DPS relic.

-To take aggro, you need to reach 110% of the threat generated by the tank (110% for melee, 130% for distance, Kitru should confirm). In fact, the tank only needs 2037 TPS to keep the aggro, and I can do that in a good run, without any taunt.

 

What your log says is simple : if I was the tank, in a good run, Stormcaller would have stayed on me for the whole fight, without using any taunt. That's EXACTLY what your taunt says. And don't forget that your numbers about 3K+ TPS (who was lowered to 2.6K+) is still far from the truth.

 

Try again :)

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It has nothing to do with the times I may or may not have pulled threat from you, it has to do with the times I never even got the chance to because we would bring other tanks over you for progression content.

 

The personal problems some people may have with me coupled with the fact that said guild couldn't even find people to raid in the first place aren't really a legitimate contention here. You didn't take me because I'm a monumental *******, not because I'm a bad tank (for those those scant few runs that actually occurred when I was with you guys). It's completely beside the point anyways.

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(110% for melee, 130% for distance, Kitru should confirm)

 

It's 110% only if you're within 4m of the center of the target's model. Most raid bosses have models substantially larger than 4m so the range listed in the UI isn't really applicable. For example, the raid dummy has a model radius of ~1.24m and it's got a "standard" model size for small enemies. As long as you're DPSing and the listed range is ~3m or more, you're pretty much guaranteed to be considered "ranged" for threat purposes. Honestly, as long as the DPS isn't standing *inside* the target's model, they should be in the 130% threat required range for Ops bosses.

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Our server runs a pve dps competition, I'm currently on top and on torparses' statistics I'm the top single target dps for the server in raid, and one of the top ones in the world. .

 

There's a gunslinger listed with 111 more dps than your listed amount. Is the OP out of date?

Edited by mxlm
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Zorn and Toth is the worst fight ever.

It completely needs to be reworked.

 

WHY OH WHY,

would you make a mechanic that involves you to STOP DPSING to wait on a debuff.

Completely retarded.

Completely ignorant.

Completely ignore the fact of what kind of gear you have, you go by the fearful buff now.

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The personal problems some people may have with me coupled with the fact that said guild couldn't even find people to raid in the first place aren't really a legitimate contention here. You didn't take me because I'm a monumental *******, not because I'm a bad tank (for those those scant few runs that actually occurred when I was with you guys). It's completely beside the point anyways.

 

lol, OK. Carry on being Kitru that insists he knows all.

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There's a gunslinger listed with 111 more dps than your listed amount. Is the OP out of date?

 

The OP just updated it today (FINALLY). I never listed another parse past that one which was in full 61's after I had come back to the game, so tomorrow I have to upload a newer parse :D.

 

Annihilation just does some absolutely ridiculous damage on a dummy ;), even if carnage is the better raiding spec.

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