Jump to content

8 Man Xeno HM not balanced..


Recommended Posts

16 Man content is generally easier to do anyways when it comes to playing with skilled players. More then double the amount of Dps and not even double the health on bosses? Thats just silly, 16 man becomes less about difficulty and more about preparation and communication rather then personal skill.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh 16m is genrally easier?

Would you please do Kephess in Denova NM with 16 players and lets talk about your experience in a few weeks?! :D

 

16m should be technically easier because: The lower FPS on many machines.

The more players to organize.

The more player to do a wipish failure.

 

If you would play 16m frequently you would not post such a thread. Because many fights aren't managed to be a proper challange. And a very long time you didn't even get double or even more loot than in 8m.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh 16m is genrally easier?

Would you please do Kephess in Denova NM with 16 players and lets talk about your experience in a few weeks?! :D

 

16m should be technically easier because: The lower FPS on many machines.

The more players to organize.

The more player to do a wipish failure.

 

If you would play 16m frequently you would not post such a thread. Because many fights aren't managed to be a proper challange. And a very long time you didn't even get double or even more loot than in 8m.

 

Theres a key in your post mate: 'The more player to do a wipish failure.'

 

Watching the 16 men guilds streaming the content just makes my eyes bleed. Theres always a 3-4 raider who makes the same mistakes, dying left and right, still most of the time they are able to kill the bosses. Thats just ridiculous. i Wouldnt go with this so called 'Hardcore' raiders to LI HM, not to Hard and nightmare operations for f sake. It always looks like that 12 ppl boosting another 4 through the content, without much wipes.

Edited by Haargh
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Watching the 16 men guilds streaming the content just makes my eyes bleed. Theres always a 3-4 raider who makes the same mistakes, dying left and right, still most of the time they are able to kill the bosses. Thats just ridiculous. i Wouldnt go with this so called 'Hardcore' raiders to LI HM, not to Hard and nightmare operations for f sake. It always looks like that 12 ppl boosting another 4 through the content, without much wipes.

This. 16-man guilds are always talking about how much harder certain encounters are, and perhaps they are right, but the video evidence sure lends credence to the idea that a great part of it is the difficulty of fielding 16 good players.

 

Hell, I don't think there are 16 good players on my server... even 8 is a stretch, and they're sure not in the same guild.

 

I still remember a video compilation of wipes on NiM SC&FB, and the entire first half of the fight was the Stormcaller tank losing aggro and the DPS getting gibbed. That's not the encounter being harder, that's your tank being bad.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Almost all of them, the difficulty with 16 is coordination, the actual content is easier in comparison.

 

Looks like someone has never done 16s before.

 

Very few fights are easier on 16. Anyone who says otherwise either hasn't done 16 or is lying to get attention.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This. 16-man guilds are always talking about how much harder certain encounters are, and perhaps they are right, but the video evidence sure lends credence to the idea that a great part of it is the difficulty of fielding 16 good players.

 

Hell, I don't think there are 16 good players on my server... even 8 is a stretch, and they're sure not in the same guild.

 

I still remember a video compilation of wipes on NiM SC&FB, and the entire first half of the fight was the Stormcaller tank losing aggro and the DPS getting gibbed. That's not the encounter being harder, that's your tank being bad.

 

Don't know about the video in question, but if, for instance, the Tank is a Jugg and 2 or more of the DPS are Pyros, Carnage Maras or another bursty high damage spec, it's nearly impossible to maintain threat with only one guard. Which is why I tank with a Van.

 

So if there was threat loss, might just be a class balance issue.

 

Another problem with 16 mans is that they can sometimes be lag city.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Looks like someone has never done 16s before.

 

Very few fights are easier on 16. Anyone who says otherwise either hasn't done 16 or is lying to get attention.

 

Only fight that comes to mind is Fabricator. Writhing Horror seemed a bit easier but that might have been because were overgeared when we got around to doing him on 16 man.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only fight that comes to mind is Fabricator. Writhing Horror seemed a bit easier but that might have been because were overgeared when we got around to doing him on 16 man.

 

I'd say it's overgear. Writhing Horror has a very lenient enrage timer in HM, so that's a large part of it. But the DoT ticks a lot harder and with the increased players, the chance of getting gibbed by puddles (or putting them in bad spots) is increased.

 

In the current tier the following fights are easier in 16:

 

Operator IX

 

That's it. Everything else is harder on 16. This is mostly to do with the 1.5x damage multiplier when you go from 8 -> 16. I've even seen this in 2.0 content. Yes, there are more healers, but tanks take more damage, the raid takes more damage, and you absolutely have to obey mechanics. In 8 runs of Kephess the Undying, for example, I've seen healers (non-scoundrel) get Energy Distortions and really no one cares. Why? The damage done to the tanks is so low it doesn't matter if the healer isn't healing. In 16? Yeah, that can wipe you. Same applies to TFB himself. On 8, I've seen fights where you do a good chunk of phase 2 with a DPS down. If you lose even a single DPS on 16, the irregularity phase will likely wipe you, nevermind the much harsher enrage timer.

 

Which is why i maintain that anyone who says 16 is easier either has not done it before or is a troll starved for attention.

Edited by Mavery
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The DPS and HPS requirements per person are lower in 16-man content. As far as I know, that's true of every boss encounter. That's what people mean when they say that 16-man content is designed to be easier: in terms of raw numbers, it is.

 

However, 16-man mechanics require more people to have a clue and avoid doing stupid things in order for those reduced outputs to be felt. Finding 16 people to function at progression-raiding levels is really difficult.

 

16-man Xenoanalyst, on a per capita basis, is significantly easier to dps and to heal than the (already super easy) 8-man. Fights with real mechanics feel harder on 16-man because people make mistakes. Xenoanalyst is such a wimpy fight, mechanics-wise, that is just doesn't feel that way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The DPS and HPS requirements per person are lower in 16-man content. As far as I know, that's true of every boss encounter. That's what people mean when they say that 16-man content is designed to be easier: in terms of raw numbers, it is.

 

However, 16-man mechanics require more people to have a clue and avoid doing stupid things in order for those reduced outputs to be felt. Finding 16 people to function at progression-raiding levels is really difficult.

 

16-man Xenoanalyst, on a per capita basis, is significantly easier to dps and to heal than the (already super easy) 8-man. Fights with real mechanics feel harder on 16-man because people make mistakes. Xenoanalyst is such a wimpy fight, mechanics-wise, that is just doesn't feel that way.

 

This isn't true of every boss encounter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I only do 16 man content to gear underperforming dpsers up - which bosses require more output in 16 man?

 

I honestly don't remember a single boss with 2.5 the amount of HP they have on 8 man.

 

Every boss in EC NiM for starters. ;)

 

edit: Your HPS argument is flawed for every fight in 16, too.

 

In 16-player Ops there is a 1.5x damage multiplier for all incoming damage (tank, raid, avoidable). In a 16-player Ops you go from 1 -> 2 tank and raid healers respectively. So you have 1 tank healer for the base damage, a second to cover the 1x multiplier but there is still 0.5x multiplier to consider. This means that each healer needs to heal at a 1.25 clip instead of a 1.0 clip.

 

So yeah.

Edited by Mavery
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Every boss in EC NiM for starters. ;)

 

edit: Your HPS argument is flawed for every fight in 16, too.

 

In 16-player Ops there is a 1.5x damage multiplier for all incoming damage (tank, raid, avoidable). In a 16-player Ops you go from 1 -> 2 tank and raid healers respectively. So you have 1 tank healer for the base damage, a second to cover the 1x multiplier but there is still 0.5x multiplier to consider. This means that each healer needs to heal at a 1.25 clip instead of a 1.0 clip.

 

So yeah.

 

I usually do 8-man raids with two tanks and two healers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is not a refutation of what I said.

 

I guess I didn't udnerstand what you meant. Isn't 4 healers for 2 tanks with 1.5 the normal incoming damage less healing required than 2 healers healing 2 tanks?

 

Or are you saying that because there are 16 people, aoe damage is more significant?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess I didn't udnerstand what you meant. Isn't 4 healers for 2 tanks with 1.5 the normal incoming damage less healing required than 2 healers healing 2 tanks?

 

Or are you saying that because there are 16 people, aoe damage is more significant?

 

You have two tank healers and two raid healers. There is some cross over, but the vast majority of tank healers heals goes to tanks and same for raid healers.

 

Yes, AOE damage is much more significant because of the 1.5x damage multiplier.

 

So in order to overcome the multplier, the tank healers need to heal at a 1.25 clip and the raid healers at a 1.25 clip.

 

In a 16-player Ops if you don't assign tank and raid healers... it goes south very quickly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You have two tank healers and two raid healers. There is some cross over, but the vast majority of tank healers heals goes to tanks and same for raid healers.

 

Yes, AOE damage is much more significant because of the 1.5x damage multiplier.

 

So in order to overcome the multplier, the tank healers need to heal at a 1.25 clip and the raid healers at a 1.25 clip.

 

In a 16-player Ops if you don't assign tank and raid healers... it goes south very quickly.

 

But effective damage in per capita is still less, isn't it?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But effective damage in per capita is still less, isn't it?

I think his argument is that while damage amounts are "only" 1.5 times higher, raid damage is applied to twice as many people, which increases healing requirements by some given subfactor.

 

Obviously it's not really a robust theory: the reality of encounters is significantly more complex than "healers must do 1.25 times more output on 16-man". If that were true, for example, certain moments in encounters that require close to maximum achievable HPS would therefore wipe a raid in 16-man, when clearly they do not.

Edited by Aurojiin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think his argument is that while damage amounts are "only" 1.5 times higher, raid damage is applied to twice as many people, which increases healing requirements by some given subfactor.

 

Obviously it's not really a robust theory: the reality of encounters is significantly more complex than "healers must do 1.25 times more output on 16-man". If that were true, for example, certain moments in encounters that require close to maximum achievable HPS would therefore wipe a raid in 16-man, when clearly they do not.

 

No, that's not the argument at all.

 

I'll attempt to simplify.

 

In an 8-player Ops, you have a tank healer (commando / scoundrel) and a raid healer (sage / scoundrel). Since 8 player is the baseline, the healing they have to put out is 1.0

 

In an 16-player Ops, you have two tank healers and two raid healers. There is a 1.5 damage multiplier. This brings the total amount of healing up to 2.5. By simply doubling the healer for each role, you come up to 2.0. But you still need to heal 2.5. So each healer needs to heal 1.25 in order to meet the healing requirements for a fight.

 

1.25 > 1.0 . There is a greater amount of healing required in 16.

 

Now obviously this is generally speaking. There are fights (like Dread Guards) where the raid healer will do more cross over healing than normal, and the same can be said vice-versa in the case of Soa.

 

But in a non-specific, general case each healer in 16 must do 1.25 instead of 1.0.

 

edit: if you want it put simply, 8-player, as I stated above, is baseline. 100%. By going into a 16, in order to meet the healing requirement, each healer must push up to 125% healing.

 

Some numbers.

 

Boss hits the tank for a total of 1,000 damage. In 8-player, the tank healer needs to put out 1,000 effective heals. In 16-player, the boss will hit the same tank for 2,500 (the damage multiplier). The two tank healers need to combine for 2,500. In this example, if the two healers are healing equally, they need to put out 1,250 heals. Clearly more than in the 8 model.

 

I hope this makes my argument easier to understand.

Edited by Mavery
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In an 8-player Ops, you have a tank healer (commando / scoundrel) and a raid healer (sage / scoundrel).

I realise this is besides the point, but this statement is almost never true in my experience. Certainly not for relevant content.

 

There is a 1.5 damage multiplier. This brings the total amount of healing up to 2.5. By simply doubling the healer for each role, you come up to 2.0. But you still need to heal 2.5. So each healer needs to heal 1.25 in order to meet the healing requirements for a fight.

I understand your argument now (your use of the word "multiplier" was a little confusing), I just don't think it really helps prove any points.

 

For baseline healing requirements, even if overall damage was 2.5 times higher that wouldn't make healing any more difficult, because in the vast majority of encounters healer output is not pushed. Or, in other words, if 8-man DTPS was 1.25 times what it is, it still wouldn't be harder, because there's plenty of HPS headroom anyway.

 

Conversely, in moments where significant damage is incurred, your figures clearly don't hold because fights would be impossible. Kephess would hit the tank for some 38k when applying Savage Wounding, which I'm pretty sure he doesn't do.

 

I'm not saying fights aren't harder on 16-man. I'm not qualified to say that for one. But I have yet to even see an ops group with 8 great players. So you'll understand why I find it hard to believe that the few active 16-man progression guilds in this game really do have 16 great players to benchmark encounters against, in a game where most of the genuinely good people left a long time. It also relies on the idea that the developers are consistently incapable of actually balancing their content, and somehow their internal testing fails to show that the difficulty is out of line with their own intentions. Is it possible? Sure. Do I remain slightly sceptical? Of course.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In an 8-player Ops, you have a tank healer (commando / scoundrel) and a raid healer (sage / scoundrel). Since 8 player is the baseline, the healing they have to put out is 1.0

 

 

Skip to 8:46.

 

I highly doubt that having only the "tank healer" on the shadow would have been able to keep him up...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Skip to 8:46.

 

I highly doubt that having only the "tank healer" on the shadow would have been able to keep him up...

 

I already mentioned there is cross over. Stop trolling.

 

I realise this is besides the point, but this statement is almost never true in my experience. Certainly not for relevant content.

 

 

I understand your argument now (your use of the word "multiplier" was a little confusing), I just don't think it really helps prove any points.

 

For baseline healing requirements, even if overall damage was 2.5 times higher that wouldn't make healing any more difficult, because in the vast majority of encounters healer output is not pushed. Or, in other words, if 8-man DTPS was 1.25 times what it is, it still wouldn't be harder, because there's plenty of HPS headroom anyway.

 

Conversely, in moments where significant damage is incurred, your figures clearly don't hold because fights would be impossible. Kephess would hit the tank for some 38k when applying Savage Wounding, which I'm pretty sure he doesn't do.

 

I'm not saying fights aren't harder on 16-man. I'm not qualified to say that for one. But I have yet to even see an ops group with 8 great players. So you'll understand why I find it hard to believe that the few active 16-man progression guilds in this game really do have 16 great players to benchmark encounters against, in a game where most of the genuinely good people left a long time. It also relies on the idea that the developers are consistently incapable of actually balancing their content, and somehow their internal testing fails to show that the difficulty is out of line with their own intentions. Is it possible? Sure. Do I remain slightly sceptical? Of course.

 

The statement that was presented -- which I countered -- is that HPS requirements are lower in 16 than in 8. Whether or not you need all that HPS -- I agree with you that you don't -- is irrelevant. When you pool up all the healing in 8, and then calculate for 16, the HPS required per healer to heal up all the damage is higher in 16 than 8. Do you need all of that? No. But the math proves the statement wrong.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...