the economy on Harbinger seems rather borked.

I noticed that Advanced '28 Augs seem to sell for around ~CR80k.

Meanwhile, I could sell the 4x Thermal Regulators used to make an Advanced '28 Aug for CR25k each.

Heck, I noticed the other day that buying 10x MK9 components would cost more than a completed MK9 Kit!

the economy on Harbinger seems rather borked.

 

I noticed that Advanced '28 Augs seem to sell for around ~CR80k.

Meanwhile, I could sell the 4x Thermal Regulators used to make an Advanced '28 Aug for CR25k each.

 

Heck, I noticed the other day that buying 10x MK9 components would cost more than a completed MK9 Kit!

This happens. Especially when you have players taking extras into account when pricing as Maestrodomus points out. If someone "hits the jackpot" and crits three or four times out of five attempts, then selling at 80k will generate a quick turnaround (because the pricing is significantly lower than "normal") at a significant profit:

- sell eight augments at 80k you will get 640k

- sell 20 TRs (the number needed to craft five augments) at 25k you only make 500k.

I am not agreeing with the tactic (in fact I completely disagree with it), but I understand the mentality.

TSelling armor is very profitable if you have desirable schematics or have taken the time to unlock the best combinations of purple gear. For the most part it's more enjoyable because the market is steadier than augments, and you don't have to constantly price check and undercut.

This is a server difference, then. I don't have to price check and undercut every time I post up Augs because the market on my server (The Bastion) has been completely reliable on a long term basis. By long term I mean specifically that my weekly crafting quota (as in number of units I plan to sell) that I put on myself sells for the same price per item by weeks end. I don't sell for less just because I got lot of crits. Seemingly most of the others in the market don't much anymore either. I must be in a magic place where we all realize we make more money by continuing to sell at the normal price regardless of how many "free" extras we get from crits.

Sure you see a few new names roll through and sell for much less a few times a week. But you normally don't see them again for week or more, if at all. These "drive by sellers" get their quick credits and get out.

Related topic, but not in response to the above quote..

It wasn't always like this. When I first got into The Bastions current augment market after 2.0 (I was active pre 2.0, just not to my current degree), 450 Slicing Missions sold for ~80k, Therm Regs were as cheap as 12-15k and Augments sold for 75-80k (sometimes as low as 60k). Currently, you have a hard time finding Slicing Missions under 145k, Therm Regs are stable at 25-26k and Augments sell for for a weekly average of 125k.

When hundreds of millions in credits made turns into billions, you can turn some of that money around and use it to exert a lot of control on a specific market. By buying up any 450 missions and Therm Regs posted below certain prices, as example, you force 90%+ (arbitrary but seems fitting number) of the crafting base to play by your pricing rules simply by limiting access to key crafting material.

With augments, you only have to control the prices of those two things (missions and regs) in order to have a massive influence on the price of augments in general. Given the rarity of Therm Regs and Slicing Missions compared to most other mats and missions in the game, augments and their related market is a good target for attempting this kind of control/influence.

the economy on Harbinger seems rather borked.

 

I noticed that Advanced '28 Augs seem to sell for around ~CR80k.

Meanwhile, I could sell the 4x Thermal Regulators used to make an Advanced '28 Aug for CR25k each.

 

Heck, I noticed the other day that buying 10x MK9 components would cost more than a completed MK9 Kit!

I have characters I transferred to Harbinger a week or so ago. As of yesterday when I last checked the GTN, augments were in the 80k range as you said but the Therm Regs were as cheap as 18k with a lot sitting at 20k.

As for Mk-9 components/kits, those are most often the things I see where the key component in crafting cost as much or more then the final product on a 1-1 basis. That market is very easy for someone who produces their own components and kits to make a killing with their margins compared to those who buy their components off the GTN.

I have characters I transferred to Harbinger a week or so ago. As of yesterday when I last checked the GTN, augments were in the 80k range as you said but the Therm Regs were as cheap as 18k with a lot sitting at 20k..

18k still means a mighty 72k of 80k. throw in the rest of the mats costs and that's a loss maker if you're buying mats.

personally, I hoard purple mats and only grudgingly sell them when there's a shortage in the market.

As for Mk-9 components/kits, those are most often the things I see where the key component in crafting cost as much or more then the final product on a 1-1 basis. That market is very easy for someone who produces their own components and kits to make a killing with their margins compared to those who buy their components off the GTN.

i did these numbers in another thread:

i ran some (rough & ready) numbers over the weekend while making MK9 kits.

 

MK9 components cost 2/2/2 (Mythra/Turadium/Tri-Copper Flux) for my cybertech to make (r/e qt-10 droid parts).

 

r/e 10x parts will yield 10x MK9 components, 10x Mythra, ~3x Turadium and ~1x Flux.

 

so the net cost for 10x MK9 components is (roughly): 10x Mythra, 17x Turadium and 19x Flux.

add in the additional 2/2/2 +2 Bio Interface Chips to the cost of making the aug kit itself and we're left with a cost of 12/19/21/2 per mk9 kit

 

now, Mythra & Turadium on the GTN average around CR1k per piece on the West Harbinger server and flux is 600 credits from the vendor (although some clown on Harbinger is really trying it on listing tri-copper flux on the GTN for CR2,500/ea, maybe I should try that.....). Bio Interface Chips are cheap on my server, say 500/ea.

 

so, on GTN materials prices, one kit costs ~CR44,600 (note: this is also the Opportunity Cost of the kit).

 

said kits seem to have a floor price of around CR60k on my server, so a profit of at least 15k per kit if I'm buying my mats on the GTN.

 

now, if I gather the mats myself, the actual cost per kit plummets (and I'm taking Worst Case returns from Rich Missions as a baseline).

 

2x No Peace In Sight metals missions = CR6480

2x Liberated Tech compounds missions = CR6480

1x War Born Wealth flux mission = CR1920

total = CR14,880/kit or, a profit of ~CR45k per kit (and I'm likely to have a minor amount of materials left over)

 

(note, there's still better profit in selling the kits than the mats. selling the mats would only yield ~30k profit (mats sale cost of 45k - gathering cost of ~15k)

 

If you have a high-level scavenger running in areas where you can scavenge the grade 9 mats from droids/nodes etc, then the cost just dropped even further.

18k still means a mighty 72k of 80k. throw in the rest of the mats costs and that's a loss maker if you're buying mats.

 

personally, I hoard purple mats and only grudgingly sell them when there's a shortage in the market.

 

i did these numbers in another thread:

That is why I don't buy generic mats. It just limits the margins to much.

And I saw your numbers breakdown on MK-9 kits already. I was active in that other thread as well

Going back to the augment prices though. It's pretty easy to manipulate those prices to be more favorable for sellers. It just takes time and a bit of dedication to up the average cost.

This is a server difference, then. I don't have to price check and undercut every time I post up Augs because the market on my server (The Bastion) has been completely reliable on a long term basis. By long term I mean specifically that my weekly crafting quota (as in number of units I plan to sell) that I put on myself sells for the same price per item by weeks end. I don't sell for less just because I got lot of crits. Seemingly most of the others in the market don't much anymore either. I must be in a magic place where we all realize we make more money by continuing to sell at the normal price regardless of how many "free" extras we get from crits.

 

Sure you see a few new names roll through and sell for much less a few times a week. But you normally don't see them again for week or more, if at all. These "drive by sellers" get their quick credits and get out.

 

Related topic, but not in response to the above quote..

 

It wasn't always like this. When I first got into The Bastions current augment market after 2.0 (I was active pre 2.0, just not to my current degree), 450 Slicing Missions sold for ~80k, Therm Regs were as cheap as 12-15k and Augments sold for 75-80k (sometimes as low as 60k). Currently, you have a hard time finding Slicing Missions under 145k, Therm Regs are stable at 25-26k and Augments sell for for a weekly average of 125k.

 

When hundreds of millions in credits made turns into billions, you can turn some of that money around and use it to exert a lot of control on a specific market. By buying up any 450 missions and Therm Regs posted below certain prices, as example, you force 90%+ (arbitrary but seems fitting number) of the crafting base to play by your pricing rules simply by limiting access to key crafting material.

 

With augments, you only have to control the prices of those two things (missions and regs) in order to have a massive influence on the price of augments in general. Given the rarity of Therm Regs and Slicing Missions compared to most other mats and missions in the game, augments and their related market is a good target for attempting this kind of control/influence.

On your server may be, on RE price could change with 20k per augment in an hour.

Limiting not always working - there can be 1 self sufficient crafter to screw such strategy.

On your server may be, on RE price could change with 20k per augment in an hour.

Limiting not always working - there can be 1 self sufficient crafter to screw such strategy.

Well as I said, it doesn't cover everyone. For the exact reason you mentioned. There are other self sufficient crafters out there and active. Though at that point it comes down to who has more toons to gather and craft with should we want to start "selling wars". It hasn't gotten to that point though, which is beneficial for all us sellers.

Im also betting the prices remain stable because if items are selling consistently, you would be shorting yourself credits if items sell just as fast at 100k as they do at 125k (example numbers). Im sure those other self sufficient crafters are more then happy to let me be doing all the work helping maintain that standard (knowingly or not). And why not? With me reinvesting to help maintain prices, their overall margins are actually better then mine so they are making more in profits then I am.

Its really a win win for gather/farmer crafters to maintain certain prices of one another in general for these particular market items. Especially since they are items that are guaranteed sells. You can't compete in any endgame content (pve or pvp) without fully augmented gear. Every endgame toon needs 14 augments per gear set and 14 kits to go along with it. Everyone involved on the selling side can make piles of credits working more cooperatively rather then competitively. Its basically drug dealing with no difference in product street quality between sellers. Those who want it "need" it and will have to pay whatever price its set at with no other place to get it unless they decide to make it for themselves.

A more real world example is the cellular network providers in the United States. If you take a look at the major carriers (AT&T and Verizon) the rates for their plans are almost always identical within any given market. A 400 minute plan is x amount regardless of which of the two you look at. Sure there are differences between the two services, especially when looking into stuff beyond the basic plans, but both major carriers know they both make more money when they maintain a certain base price standard.

So unlike the above example, where competition for customers really only exists between the real and perceived quality of service, in SWTOR, the products you are selling are identical in every way. So every time you undercut someone else, and they in turn undercut you so on and so on, you should both ask yourselves how long your going to go at it before you realize your both missing out on crazy amounts of credits because you work against one another rather then inline with one another charging as much as the market will let you.

Well as I said, it doesn't cover everyone. For the exact reason you mentioned. There are other self sufficient crafters out there and active. Though at that point it comes down to who has more toons to gather and craft with should we want to start "selling wars". It hasn't gotten to that point though, which is beneficial for all us sellers.

 

Im also betting the prices remain stable because if items are selling consistently, you would be shorting yourself credits if items sell just as fast at 100k as they do at 125k (example numbers). Im sure those other self sufficient crafters are more then happy to let me be doing all the work helping maintain that standard (knowingly or not). And why not? With me reinvesting to help maintain prices, their overall margins are actually better then mine so they are making more in profits then I am.

 

Its really a win win for gather/farmer crafters to maintain certain prices of one another in general for these particular market items. Especially since they are items that are guaranteed sells. You can't compete in any endgame content (pve or pvp) without fully augmented gear. Every endgame toon needs 14 augments per gear set and 14 kits to go along with it. Everyone involved on the selling side can make piles of credits working more cooperatively rather then competitively. Its basically drug dealing with no difference in product street quality between sellers. Those who want it "need" it and will have to pay whatever price its set at with no other place to get it unless they decide to make it for themselves.

 

A more real world example is the cellular network providers in the United States. If you take a look at the major carriers (AT&T and Verizon) the rates for their plans are almost always identical within any given market. A 400 minute plan is x amount regardless of which of the two you look at. Sure there are differences between the two services, especially when looking into stuff beyond the basic plans, but both major carriers know they both make more money when they maintain a certain base price standard.

 

So unlike the above example, where competition for customers really only exists between the real and perceived quality of service, in SWTOR, the products you are selling are identical in every way. So every time you undercut someone else, and they in turn undercut you so on and so on, you should both ask yourselves how long your going to go at it before you realize your both missing out on crazy amounts of credits because you work against one another rather then inline with one another charging as much as the market will let you.

I've actually attempted to contact other sellers, especially the ones that undercut all the way to 0 profit and I either get no response, or some snotty comment about making their profits on crits.

Thing is, I factored crits into my equation. With max affection and a companion with a +5 bonus to crit, there is a predictable % chance to get an extra Mk-9 kit.

I also factored "left-overs" (mats you get back when re-ing) and the cost of flux needed to craft the ear pieces.

FYI the left-over % on ear pieces is roughly 25%, so if you stock enough mats for 100 ear pieces, you should be able to make an additional 25, though you may need to buy more flux.

The nearest I was able to calculate break-even was at 60k, but as prices have slipped, I don't seem to be gaining ground anymore with prices at 70k.

At this point, it's looking like I would be better off just selling mats.

But that has always been a successful MMO strategy. With everyone and his cousin crafting, the prices for crafted items eventually drop below the point anyone can even make a profit. But Materials always sell.

I've actually attempted to contact other sellers, especially the ones that undercut all the way to 0 profit and I either get no response, or some snotty comment about making their profits on crits.

Thing is, I factored crits into my equation. With max affection and a companion with a +5 bonus to crit, there is a predictable % chance to get an extra Mk-9 kit.

I also factored "left-overs" (mats you get back when re-ing) and the cost of flux needed to craft the ear pieces.

FYI the left-over % on ear pieces is roughly 25%, so if you stock enough mats for 100 ear pieces, you should be able to make an additional 25, though you may need to buy more flux.

 

The nearest I was able to calculate break-even was at 60k, but as prices have slipped, I don't seem to be gaining ground anymore with prices at 70k.

At this point, it's looking like I would be better off just selling mats.

But that has always been a successful MMO strategy. With everyone and his cousin crafting, the prices for crafted items eventually drop below the point anyone can even make a profit. But Materials always sell.

I know it is not your main point, but I just have to comment on "buying flux." Buying flux (or corundum powder) is a HUGE waste of credits. Running the mission for Tricopper Flux or Corundum Powder costs 1920 credits and yields at least 12 units (usually 15 or 16)...that's at worst 160 credits per unit. To buy flux or powder from the vendor is 600 credits each.

This is why I run those missions as much as possible. I would rather have too much in stock from running the missions than having to buy the material because I run out.

I know it is not your main point, but I just have to comment on "buying flux." Buying flux (or corundum powder) is a HUGE waste of credits. Running the mission for Tricopper Flux or Corundum Powder costs 1920 credits and yields at least 12 units (usually 15 or 16)...that's at worst 160 credits per unit. To buy flux or powder from the vendor is 600 credits each.

 

This is why I run those missions as much as possible. I would rather have too much in stock from running the missions than having to buy the material because I run out.

I realize this, but some of my alts only have 3 companions to send out. So the value of Mythra or Turadium is more than the savings I make back from that one mission. I'm not doing missions on my cybertech crafter at all, I need all 5 companions doing 5 earpieces each while my alts run gathering missions.

I know it's odd to have a toon mid 30's with 450 scavenging.

I realize this, but some of my alts only have 3 companions to send out. So the value of Mythra or Turadium is more than the savings I make back from that one mission. I'm not doing missions on my cybertech crafter at all, I need all 5 companions doing 5 earpieces each while my alts run gathering missions.

I know it's odd to have a toon mid 30's with 450 scavenging.

No it's not. I have a level 33 SI with 450 Artifice/Slicing/TH and a level 46 mando with 450 Armstech/Investigation (still working on 3rd skill on him; have not decided whether to stick with slicing of not. Probably not since I need more scav mats .

Once you get alts 450 in crew skills is easy and almost necessary.

No it's not. I have a level 33 SI with 450 Artifice/Slicing/TH and a level 46 mando with 450 Armstech/Investigation (still working on 3rd skill on him; have not decided whether to stick with slicing of not. Probably not since I need more scav mats .

 

Once you get alts 450 in crew skills is easy and almost necessary.

Do scavenging as your 3rd skill on that commando. MX gets +5 to crit with it. Running the tricopper mission on him is amazing when he (it?) brings back 30 at a time routinely.

Should switch armstech to armormech on that commando too. Vik gets + 5 to crit with that craft.

Do scavenging as your 3rd skill on that commando. MX gets +5 to crit with it. Running the tricopper mission on him is amazing when he (it?) brings back 30 at a time routinely.

 

Should switch armstech to armormech on that commando too. Vik gets + 5 to crit with that craft.

On scavenging, that was my thinking. But I already have two scavengers one of which (my smuggler) has armormech and slicing but I barely do armormech (augments are too volatile anymore) anymore, and since slicing is for augment materials I barely do that either (I mostly run lockbox missions for discovered missions). So all I do on that character is scavenging. In the last two days I have acquired three stacks of metals, compounds, and flux. The other scav is my BH CT/Scav/UT. If I change my mando to scavenging I would most likely change out scav on my Smuggler to BA because I am always running short on BA materials.

On crafting, I have no desire to switch crafting crew skills. I have spent a lot of time and credits getting schematics and I do not want to do that again. Would it be advantageous to do so? Sure albeit slight IMO. And I make PLENTY of credits as is: 2-3 million a week without trying (mostly on my CT and Art with AT a close third). A couple of months ago I decided to really try for a week and I made ~15 million, but I burned out and could barely stomach playing at all for the next week (I came close to withdrawing from my ops progression group that week).

So, optimization and trying to make lots of credits is not a high priority for me; it is another aspect of the game I enjoy but not something I dedicate a lot of time to.

anything that can craft augments is qutie profitable. i did quite nice credit just with crafting some low level purples on armormech and i dont think its considered high profit - but still was decent

On The Harbinger TRs run ~20k, purple augments are going for (on average) 85k. Factor in the other materials and GTM cut and the only profit comes from extras. Blue augments are a little better but only because one can get the BMIC (sliced part) for dirt but that market fluctuates wildly: lows as little at 5k highs as much as 20k, but most of the time the pricing is hovering at 8k and lucky if it hits 10k

On The Harbinger TRs run ~20k, purple augments are going for (on average) 85k. Factor in the other materials and GTM cut and the only profit comes from extras. Blue augments are a little better but only because one can get the BMIC (sliced part) for dirt but that market fluctuates wildly: lows as little at 5k highs as much as 20k, but most of the time the pricing is hovering at 8k and lucky if it hits 10k

yeah, I looked at the Harbinger Advanced XXX Augment 28 market and profitability is pretty much entirely dependent on crits. so i'll just hoard all my Thermal Regulators for my own 'toons.

yeah, I looked at the Harbinger Advanced XXX Augment 28 market and profitability is pretty much entirely dependent on crits. so i'll just hoard all my Thermal Regulators for my own 'toons.

Yea, you get back to "bottom-feeders" as I like to call them. People know good and well that those augments would continue to sell at 100k+ for main stats especially, but they see the lowest price is 110k and they think "I'll sell my REALLY fast if I list mine for 100k!" then 10 minutes later some DB comes in and says "I can sell mine REALLY fast if I list mine for 95k!" and 5 minutes after that another one comes in and says "I got 3 crits that time! I can sell mine for 85k and still make a profit"

So now the bottom price is set to 85k and noone dares list theirs higher for fear of being stuck with augments they cant sell.

To some degree you can control this if you have the cash by buying up the low-ball items and re-listing, but you risk being under cut again by MORE bottom-feeders later.

Yea, you get back to "bottom-feeders" as I like to call them. People know good and well that those augments would continue to sell at 100k+ for main stats especially, but they see the lowest price is 110k and they think "I'll sell my REALLY fast if I list mine for 100k!" then 10 minutes later some DB comes in and says "I can sell mine REALLY fast if I list mine for 95k!" and 5 minutes after that another one comes in and says "I got 3 crits that time! I can sell mine for 85k and still make a profit"

So now the bottom price is set to 85k and noone dares list theirs higher for fear of being stuck with augments they cant sell.

To some degree you can control this if you have the cash by buying up the low-ball items and re-listing, but you risk being under cut again by MORE bottom-feeders later.

i can accept getting undercut, heck I've done it enough times myself. but don't undercut by huge amounts. if i'm listing MK-9 kits at 70k, list yours at 69,990 if you want to be listed as the cheapest. don't drop all the way to 60k in one throw.

i can accept getting undercut, heck I've done it enough times myself. but don't undercut by huge amounts. if i'm listing MK-9 kits at 70k, list yours at 69,990 if you want to be listed as the cheapest. don't drop all the way to 60k in one throw.

I hate undercutting, I'm a seller and a buyer. I purposely will still buy an item listed as 100k vs someone trying to be a smart ***** and list there's for 9999.00. I skip those all the time and still purchase the one listed for 100k, like 1 credit is really going to make it or break it people? it's like 2 competing gas stations listing regular unleaded for 369.99 then you have the other across the street for 367.99?????? really... ah OK thank for saving me a whole 2 cents. I laugh at the folks that do it all the time.

I hate undercutting, I'm a seller and a buyer. I purposely will still buy an item listed as 100k vs someone trying to be a smart ***** and list there's for 9999.00. I skip those all the time and still purchase the one listed for 100k, like 1 credit is really going to make it or break it people? it's like 2 competing gas stations listing regular unleaded for 369.99 then you have the other across the street for 367.99?????? really... ah OK thank for saving me a whole 2 cents. I laugh at the folks that do it all the time.

Most sellers know that players like you exist, but I am afraid that you are in the miniscule minority. Why? Ever hear the phrase, "every little bit helps"?

I'm just the opposite when I buy. I set a maximum credits (per unit) I will spend and not spend one credit more. If my limit is 100k I will pay the 99999, because that is one more credit in my pocket.

So I pose this question: how much savings is too little for you? Would you pass up a 95k on that 100k item "on principle"? How about 90k?

You don't lose any money by posting and not getting a sale. The trick with being undercut is patience.

If you know the market well and you know the 85k is an abnormal low just keep posting your gear at the normal average price. If it doesn't sell it goes back in your pocket to be sold the next day. Worst case nothing sells for a while, and yo build stock till the market comes back. Best case the market undercuts itself so far you can buy out the bottom and resell when it comes back.

Once I went 2 weeks in a weak market buying earpieces at 2k. It took me a month to offload the huge stock I bought but I never sold for less than 16k once the market came back, and some as much as 30k. All that profit with no materials overhead or missions ran, just the patience to sell at a reasonable price and take weeks to sell it off.

At that point I wasn't a crafter, I was an investor. Patience turned my 200k investment into a multi million dollar payoff. All in the sub-50 blue market.

You don't lose any money by posting and not getting a sale. The trick with being undercut is patience.

 

If you know the market well and you know the 85k is an abnormal low just keep posting your gear at the normal average price. If it doesn't sell it goes back in your pocket to be sold the next day. Worst case nothing sells for a while, and yo build stock till the market comes back. Best case the market undercuts itself so far you can buy out the bottom and resell when it comes back.

 

Once I went 2 weeks in a weak market buying earpieces at 2k. It took me a month to offload the huge stock I bought but I never sold for less than 16k once the market came back, and some as much as 30k. All that profit with no materials overhead or missions ran, just the patience to sell at a reasonable price and take weeks to sell it off.

 

At that point I wasn't a crafter, I was an investor. Patience turned my 200k investment into a multi million dollar payoff. All in the sub-50 blue market.

Pretty much this. The market wont stay low forever. People will either leave due to little profit, or stay and raise their price so they can actually make some decent profit.

Ok , consider this a very noob type of question. What the heck is a Mytag?

Overall, I found the info in this very good . Thank you. And if you have to bash me, go ahead. I can take it.

Fab

Ok , consider this a very noob type of question. What the heck is a Mytag?

 

Overall, I found the info in this very good . Thank you. And if you have to bash me, go ahead. I can take it.

 

Fab

A Mytag-crystal is an epic crafting material from treasure hunting and required for crafting certain items, for epic Enhancements 28 (Level 53) for example.