Jump to content

Game Update 7.4.1c coming April 3 ×

Kaggath Battlegrounds Semi-Finals: Republic Resistance vs Republic Reborn


Beniboybling

Recommended Posts

Beni suggested it to me, not the other way around, if we are really just going to force me to pick a ship for the fifth time, despite the fact Nek supposedly lived deep into the Galactic Alliance days when not too long after the Alliance (Imperious-class Star Destroyer) was captured and turned over to Gar Stazi's hands then I don't know what to tell you.

 

The Alliance was captured in 137ABY

 

By 36 ABY Nek had been married 3 times and was an Admiral.

 

So it is a tad iffy.

 

What Beni might have seen was that the next Supreme Commander of the GADF listed was Stazi who achieved that in 137. But the issue is we don't have a definitive date of Nek's retirement and we don't know if there was ever someone in between them at all.

 

Bothans appear to have lifespans mirroring that of humans but I'm not entirely sure as they do have a significantly different biology.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 2.1k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

The Alliance was captured in 137ABY

 

By 36 ABY Nek had been married 3 times and was an Admiral.

 

So it is a tad iffy.

 

What Beni might have seen was that the next Supreme Commander of the GADF listed was Stazi who achieved that in 137. But the issue is we don't have a definitive date of Nek's retirement and we don't know if there was ever someone in between them at all.

 

Bothans appear to have lifespans mirroring that of humans but I'm not entirely sure as they do have a significantly different biology.

 

Well I am not sure how far one character's reach goes, I know for a fact that Nek gives me access to Mon Cal and GADF ships.

 

Cody was apparently giving me access to pretty much any Imperial Navy ship and I highly doubt he lived too far after the Clone Wars.

 

I think perhaps as long as it isn't stretched by one or two centuries then it is allowed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nomi Sunrider has used Battle Meditation from space down to a planet when she mentally attacked Aleema and stopped her Sith Sorcery, has used it as Battle Mind and as Battle Meld(two unprecedented feats), she is outright claimed to be one of it's finest practitioners.

 

When Luke did something similar in Dark Empire, the SB claims that it is one of the highest aspects of Battle Meditation.

 

So yes she CAN have that kind of reach, from a planet to space and vice-versa, with the Force Nexus in the Sacred Spire (which btw allowed Nyax to successfully fight Luke, Mara and Tahiri Veila), in Nomi's hands she will be hugely amped.

 

Said Force Nexus was cultivated over thousands and thousands of years of Jedi Masters, all kinds of powerful ones as well, using the Temple constantly over the time, this was outright stated to be one of the most powerful next to the Valley of the Jedi, far greater than some assumed boost that Meetra may or may not get from Revan.

 

In-fact after Nyax tainted it and Vergere used it to trick Jacen into thinking the Order was corrupt, he was so convinced that he believed this might have been where the most powerful Jedi had been getting their power all along(wrong I know but that must signify a huge nexus).

 

Just quoting so as not to be buried.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I was actually going to bring up Nomi's attack on Aleema earlier, but we departed from the argument before I could.

 

Also, I think Rayla should be allowed to keep her flagship. This constant changing of flagships has gotten pretty old.

 

Anyway, I'm off to bed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So my thoughts on tacticians.

 

All four of these people are brilliant tacticians, but I do believe they can be ranked. I'm sure it will come as no surprise to anyone when I say that I believe Revan to the best, and superior to Nek. I don't ascribe to the notion that post-ROTJ tacticians are the best of the best, yes Nek beat the Thrawn Simulator but Revan was the Thrawn of his day.

 

By which I mean to say that he was the great tactician of his era, he single-handedly turn the tides of the Mandalorian Wars, despite it going terribly for the Republic, and in the ensuing Jedi Civil War he masterminded the downfall of the Republic and the Jedi and would have conquered the entire galaxy - in every respect - within 3 years.

 

He eclipsed all of his contemporaries. Nek, while a brilliant tactician, did not. He did not single-handedly win wars, but did so through the collective effort of a slew of exceptional commanders, he was not a mastermind as Revan was.

 

Simply put, Revan is in a league apart, and I believe he has a tactical advantage here. Then we factor in the Exile and Antilles, I suspect that Surik will be at Revan's side, being one of his most trusted generals, acting perhaps as the Yularen to Anakin, if it a little more agreeable, and in general improving Revan's tactical capabilities.

 

And no unfortunately I do not believe Surik will be in the back room doing battle meditation, because she can't do that. Surik has never displayed an ability to perform BM on this scale, only to allies in close proximity to her.

 

Then we have Wedge, admittedly he's a bit of a spare part. But I think he would be effective at commanding the remainder of Revan's fleet, and in general relaying and executing Revan's orders. He'd also have knowledge of Nek's strategies, and knowledge of how to exploit the weaknesses of Star Destroyers.

 

If need be he could take to the field, and lead Wraith Squadron in a hands on assault.

 

All in all I think the Resistance has the tactical advantage, and I think that could deliver a win here.

Edited by Beniboybling
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nek is given the credit of being one of the the best tacticians of his time. Surik is the best Naval tactician of her time, she was to the Military what Revan was to the Galaxy. She single handedly won victories at Dxun and many other worlds that other generals could not do with 10x the force. Both thanks to her natural skill in Battle Meditation and her ingenious tactics.

 

They are near to a match, in my opinion.

I have to disagree here though, Revan was a better naval tactician that Surik, that is why he was put in charge of the Republic Fleet. Surik one many battles yes (though Dxun was a ground battle) but she did not win wars, just like Nek she was a cog and we don't really have any evidence that suggests she was ingenious in her strategies.

 

I'd say that there is more proof that suggests Nek is the better tactician.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have to disagree here though, Revan was a better naval tactician that Surik, that is why he was put in charge of the Republic Fleet. Surik one many battles yes (though Dxun was a ground battle) but she did not win wars, just like Nek she was a cog and we don't really have any evidence that suggests she was ingenious in her strategies.

 

I'd say that there is more proof that suggests Nek is the better tactician.

 

On my phone so this is the only thing I can reply to:

 

You misunderstand. Revan was given the fleet, yes. He was the better tactician, agreed. But when it came to handling actual ship vs ship combat, Surik was his superior. She commanded more of the fleet than Revan and Nalak combined, and actually held just as much loyalty. It was the reason Revan and Malak used Malachor in attempt to either turn her or kill her, she had as much of the fleet in her power (Though they were all killed) and everyone idolised her. Her invasion of Dxun was the turning point of the war, a master class in tactics and morale boosting.

 

And whilst yes I agree that Surik has never actively used battle meditation, she's shown the ability to use it, perhaps even drawing off the manipulation of bonds. When leading her fleets she was a force to be reckoned with, Revan and Malak needed her corrupted or dead in order to stand a chance. Now you could of course put that down to tactical genius, but I don't think so. Atris theorised, and it seems likely, that Revan and Malak abandoned her when marching to the outer rim because she had cut herself off from the force.

 

This made them somehow believe she wasn't worth it to them anymore, and she would not pose a threat. In my mind this is because her brilliance in fleet warfare was down to force bonds and a subliminal form of Battle Meditation.

 

Though I accept that this is my theory, and if no one else sees it as plausible I won't hound it's acceptance here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nomi Sunrider has used Battle Meditation from space down to a planet when she mentally attacked Aleema and stopped her Sith Sorcery, has used it as Battle Mind and as Battle Meld(two unprecedented feats), she is outright claimed to be one of it's finest practitioners.

 

When Luke did something similar in Dark Empire, the SB claims that it is one of the highest aspects of Battle Meditation.

 

So yes she CAN have that kind of reach, from a planet to space and vice-versa, with the Force Nexus in the Sacred Spire (which btw allowed Nyax to successfully fight Luke, Mara and Tahiri Veila), in Nomi's hands she will be hugely amped.

 

Said Force Nexus was cultivated over thousands and thousands of years of Jedi Masters, all kinds of powerful ones as well, using the Temple constantly over the time, this was outright stated to be one of the most powerful next to the Valley of the Jedi, far greater than some assumed boost that Meetra may or may not get from Revan.

 

In-fact after Nyax tainted it and Vergere used it to trick Jacen into thinking the Order was corrupt, he was so convinced that he believed this is where the most powerful Jedi had been getting their power all along(wrong I know but that must signify a huge nexus).

 

There are some huge leaps in logic here.

 

Nyax cracked open the mountain itself, into the very force Nexus. The temple was merely situated on top of it. If could still be tapped into, slightly, but there's a reason you don't see people performing huge feats in Kaas city as they would in the Dark Temple.

 

Distances matter in concentrated Nexus'.

 

Did this supposed nexus help the Jedi against the clones? No. Did it boost Starkiller? No. Did it help Jedi Masters lift with TK, what we've seen Dooku eclipse with ease, unraged, on Serroco? No.

 

There is now evidence that the nexus in the temple itself is this powerful. And affecting Aleema Rar is not the same as 2 fleets...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Except Mace Windu when he was Master of the Order was given direct control over said mountain, in such a dire situation there is no way he won't tell Nomi of it's power. Besides you don't actually have to break into it, just be in the correct part of the Sacred Spire. The only reason Nyax did so is because he wanted to directly taint the nexus there, which he did.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Except Mace Windu when he was Master of the Order was given direct control over said mountain, in such a dire situation there is no way he won't tell Nomi of it's power. Besides you don't actually have to break into it, just be in the correct part of the Sacred Spire. The only reason Nyax did so is because he wanted to directly taint the nexus there, which he did.

 

Source for in the correct part, because we've never seen anyone perform great feats in the temple.

 

And you think Nomi would break such sacred ground, just to make sure her fleet killed thousands? To use the force as a weapon Against the forces of good and the light? Not a chance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Luke and Mara converse about it.

 

"But the temple... I can feel energies from it like never before." - Mara

"It has been broken into... only an agent of evil could do this." Luke

"Why?" - Mara

"Someone wants to bring darkness to the temple, defile and control it. No Jedi would need to resort to violence here."

"Jedi? no... the Dark Side." - Tahiri

 

Also Nomi isn't this devout saint you think she is, she is very very forthcoming in her negotiations, much more aggressive than most Jedi are. Sorry but I don't think a P.I.S argument holds any water here.

Edited by LadyKulvax
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now just to bring things back to point, I believe a strike team of Jedi Knights into the Viscount could work wonders.

 

Here is the how:

 

The Nu-class Assault Shuttle, which is my designated transport, could simply sneak aboard the flagship. After a wave of Ionizers cause power shortages throughout say the starboard side, the Jedi Knights land and attack critical systems, said systems having their information supplied by Nek Bwua'tu. Then the Jedi cause critical internal damage, meanwhile in the chaos a Force Cloaked Windu takes down Meetra Surik after storming the bridge.

 

Five teams of ten Knights led by Mace Windu, could quite easily storm the huge Battle-cruiser and perhaps even turn it's guns on it's own fleet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

*snip*

 

Nek has had huge lasting effects on the galaxy, from developing the tactics that defeated the Hivemind and the Vong, to being politically smart enough to play Caedus like an idiot.

 

Revan meanwhile merely fought fire with fire... and Jedi, he took Mandalorian tactics, improved them with the Force and smashed the enemy, not surprising when taking into account the Dark Jedi that he would have had at his disposal by the last part of the war.

 

Also a certain miner *cough* has veeery interesting dialogue concerning Revan's tactics:

 

 

Specifically that it is the Dark Side version of Revan that used those effective tactics, not the saviour and certainly not the Reborn Rev.

 

 

Do not underestimate Nek, he has the experience of five wars behind him and countless massive battles where he has been astronomically out-numbered, it isn't hype or exaggeration it's in the books, you just need to read them, luckily I did.

 

To quote myself:

 

Chief of Naval Operations Nek Bwua'tu was one of the most naturally gifted tacticians in the history of the galaxy, noted for his flawless record against the Thrawn Simulator, something no one else ever held, despite never having commanded a fleet engagement.

 

The Jedi Masters actually believed that he may be Force Sensitive, for seemingly being able to predict his opponent's every move. Indeed, he predicted Jedi powers rather easily and numerous times subverted their use.

 

He was well-versed in using asteroid fields and suns to his advantage, in-fact he would place his ship directly between a sun and enemy ships to essentially blind their gunners.

 

He also excelled at using psychological warfare against his enemies, attacking when he should defend and defending when he should attack, then employing seemingly paradoxical tactics.... launching starfighers in attack formations and keeping his capital ships back.

 

Yet he was very efficient and very effective against even the Killik Hivemind which simply abandoned fighting him, not able to adequately employ their own tactics against such an unpredictable mind, despite out-numbering him astronomically.

 

Supreme Commander Gilad Pallaeon concluded that if they hadn't employed such tactics against the hivemind they would have lost the inner rim with barely a fight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Luke and Mara converse about it.

 

"But the temple... I can feel energies from it like never before." - Mara

"It has been broken into... only an agent of evil could do this." Luke

"Why?" - Mara

"Someone wants to bring darkness to the temple, defile and control it. No Jedi would need to resort to violence here."

"Jedi? no... the Dark Side." - Tahiri

 

Also Nomi isn't this devout saint you think she is, she is very very forthcoming in her negotiations, much more aggressive than most Jedi are. Sorry but I don't think a P.I.S argument holds any water here.

No, this isn't PIS it's character. That's like us saying Vader wouldn't kill Trench if Trench lost 3 planets in the last tournament.

 

And all this quote proves is that the Temple nexus is only strong when the mountain is breached, so thanks for supporting my point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now just to bring things back to point, I believe a strike team of Jedi Knights into the Viscount could work wonders.

 

Here is the how:

 

The Nu-class Assault Shuttle, which is my designated transport, could simply sneak aboard the flagship. After a wave of Ionizers cause power shortages throughout say the starboard side, the Jedi Knights land and attack critical systems, said systems having their information supplied by Nek Bwua'tu. Then the Jedi cause critical internal damage, meanwhile in the chaos a Force Cloaked Windu takes down Meetra Surik after storming the bridge.

 

Five teams of ten Knights led by Mace Windu, could quite easily storm the huge Battle-cruiser and perhaps even turn it's guns on it's own fleet.

 

Ionizers can't cause Power shortages with Isotope-5! So many benefits to this wonderfully rare tool.

 

Surik could cut through 5 knights with ease, and Windu? Hmmph, Sudik would be under armed guard, Spec ops style. Likely that Revan would be aboard too, at least it's a possibility.

 

The idea of Mace trying an assassination attempt is probably strong, but he'd certainly be cut down

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So my thoughts on tacticians.

 

All four of these people are brilliant tacticians, but I do believe they can be ranked. I'm sure it will come as no surprise to anyone when I say that I believe Revan to the best, and superior to Nek. I don't ascribe to the notion that post-ROTJ tacticians are the best of the best, yes Nek beat the Thrawn Simulator but Revan was the Thrawn of his day.

 

By which I mean to say that he was the great tactician of his era, he single-handedly turn the tides of the Mandalorian Wars, despite it going terribly for the Republic, and in the ensuing Jedi Civil War he masterminded the downfall of the Republic and the Jedi and would have conquered the entire galaxy - in every respect - within 3 years.

 

He eclipsed all of his contemporaries. Nek, while a brilliant tactician, did not. He did not single-handedly win wars, but did so through the collective effort of a slew of exceptional commanders, he was not a mastermind as Revan was.

 

You're insane Beni. I know people don't like admitting Post-ROTJ characters are any good, but seriously Revan Only won his war by copying his enemy's strategy. It was not tactically brilliant, he surpassed contemporaries like Saul Karath for god sakes. He was good, don't get me wrong, but Nek was on another level, not Revan (coincidently Sel even admitted Revan isn't much of a tactician especially in small-scale engagements)

 

Show me, Beni, show me how good Revan is, because this "I don't subscribe to Post-ROTJ characters being any good" crap is getting really old really fast and your bias is showing like you wouldn't believe. Guess what Beni I don't subscribe to this "KOTOR characters are better than everyone" crap either.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No offense, but couldnt you guys do these kaggaths on a forum that does not cost $13 per month to access. I would love to participate in one of these, but my sub will lhave long run out by the time the next one starts.

 

Its the only forum we all use :(

 

I do however have an account on the KillerMovie Community forums, same name as here. You'll find my posts in the Literature and Expanded universe section.

 

Do you use that? I've been tempted to post the original post on there, and allow people to supply both sides with points that id then put on here, if that would be easier for you let me know!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're insane Beni. I know people don't like admitting Post-ROTJ characters are any good, but seriously Revan Only won his war by copying his enemy's strategy. It was not tactically brilliant, he surpassed contemporaries like Saul Karath for god sakes. He was good, don't get me wrong, but Nek was on another level, not Revan (coincidently Sel even admitted Revan isn't much of a tactician especially in small-scale engagements)

 

Show me, Beni, show me how good Revan is, because this "I don't subscribe to Post-ROTJ characters being any good" crap is getting really old really fast and your bias is showing like you wouldn't believe. Guess what Beni I don't subscribe to this "KOTOR characters are better than everyone" crap either.

 

Not gonna lie, this is comedy gold.

 

This post in short:

  • Era Bias for thinking the best Tactician in the span of 4000 years is bad compared to an average NJO admiral, and that it's Era Bias to deny the NJO's superiority in every respect of the lore.
  • Twisting words by falsifying quotes that I supposedly said.
  • Needless aggression that wasn't even remotely masked
  • General double standards
  • I'm right everyone else is wrong. Always.
  • Discussing characters I generally know nothing about.

 

Thanks for the laughs, this thread needed to be lightened up a bit. If you actually have a serious argument that's not filled with insults, I'll be waiting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So question....but shouldn't the XR-85 be removed? Or replace the Jugg? It's NOT a light tank at all....AT ALL.

 

That would probably require a few changes to be made to the ground force. I think we should just leave it be, since Rayla isn't available to make any decisions on that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...