I'm not suggesting I want major changes every 6 weeks, but I'll be honest, I'd LOVE minor tweaks to balance classes every few weeks...right now we go 6-months to a year between 'tweaks'.

Fair enough, but in the specific case of WoW that adjustment schedule was toxic according to them and the populace at large.

That does not mean it would be here, since obviously one can't predict the future, but one can assume constant changes would have the same effect here it had there.

Considering they started talking about balance issue the moment Arenas hit PTS, and the community exploded over balance desires almost immediately following the addition, it is a good indicator of what we are going to face IMO.

This is going to be ugly I think. I don't think the game was ready for Arena implementation, nor do I think the community was ready to accept minor imbalances. Right now the game has issues that should have been resolved first IMO, and season one should have been started first.

Just my slant. I don't think this was a healthy move, and I suspect they are going to make the same mistakes other games have made with the implementation of this type of PVP. The signs are already there, though the delay is a good sign IMO...I am still a bit worried.

As you can see the reaction to the delay, or the inference that balance issues that exist for certain classes are not on a "fix priority" list, but instead are as designed and it's more a perception issue was not very good. The community already seems to demand major changes in the short term that will effect the entire game for the sake of PVP without concern for what could follow.

A balance crusade would be toxic to the game IMO. It is a huge mistake. Just my opinion naturally, which means next to nothing.

This doesn't mean that changes of any kind are bad...or that no changes should be made to benefit PVP. Only that caution should be exercised, pace maintained, and a way should be found to apply changes that only effect one side of the game if possible.

Universal changes that only benefit one side of the game should be avoided at all costs IMO.

Fair enough, but in the specific case of WoW that adjustment schedule was toxic according to them and the populace at large.

 

That does not mean it would be here, since obviously one can't predict the future, but one can assume constant changes would have the same effect here it had there.

 

Considering they started talking about balance issue the moment Arenas hit PTS, and the community exploded over balance desires almost immediately following the addition, it is a good indicator of what we are going to face IMO.

 

This is going to be ugly I think. I don't think the game was ready for Arena implementation, nor do I think the community was ready to accept minor imbalances. Right now the game has issues that should have been resolved first IMO, and season one should have been started first.

 

Just my slant. I don't think this was a healthy move, and I suspect they are going to make the same mistakes other games have made with the implementation of this type of PVP. The signs are already there, though the delay is a good sign IMO...I am still a bit worried.

 

As you can see the reaction to the delay, or the inference that balance issues that exist for certain classes are not on a "fix priority" list, but instead are as designed and it's more a perception issue was not very good. The community already seems to demand major changes in the short term that will effect the entire game for the sake of PVP without concern for what could follow.

 

A balance crusade would be toxic to the game IMO. It is a huge mistake. Just my opinion naturally, which means next to nothing.

 

This doesn't mean that changes of any kind are bad...or that no changes should be made to benefit PVP. Only that caution should be exercised, pace maintained, and a way should be found to apply changes that only effect one side of the game if possible.

 

Universal changes that only benefit one side of the game should be avoided at all costs IMO.

Too much balance too often can be bad, but so is the other spectrum, which is what BioWare is doing. They haven't done any balances since 2.0 landed, and even before that they were few and far between. Part of the reason the forums exploded once balancing was mentioned is because animosity has been festering for a while now with classes feeling underpowered or behind the curve. Add to that having one and only one class having any real changes, plus some pretty badly worded dev responses to rep questions and you have yourself a lit powder keg.

Universal changes that only benefit one side of the game should be avoided at all costs IMO.

Please give me ONE example of a (rational) player requesting a change for THEIR class (PvP or PvE) that would negatively impact the other...I see none of that!!! EVER! Most people who ask for a change to their class, participate in both PvP and PvE...the idea that you can't improve a class without hurting one or the other (PvP vs PvE) is preposterous imo.

Most changes being requested are universal to EITHER aspect of gameplay - resource management, dps increase, better survivability, better mobility...I don't agree with your premise that it's PvP vs. PvE...it's not.

I think they should at the very least acknowledge serious playstyle issues, if not class balance issues. I don't even feel like logging to my balance shadow right now, its just not fun at all because of the (near dramatic) change in playstyle after 2.0.

I don't agree with changes to some of the other classes in 2.0 (e.g .watchman sentinel), but at least I can still login have some fun with them.

Too much balance too often can be bad, but so is the other spectrum, which is what BioWare is doing. They haven't done any balances since 2.0 landed, and even before that they were few and far between. Part of the reason the forums exploded once balancing was mentioned is because animosity has been festering for a while now with classes feeling underpowered or behind the curve. Add to that having one and only one class having any real changes, plus some pretty badly worded dev responses to rep questions and you have yourself a lit powder keg.

I hereby submit the Goldilocks Workflow for player vote and submission to Eric.

Said workflow is not too hot and not too cold.. but rather is just right.

When applied generously to class balance activities by the devs.... harmony and bliss blossom forth and the community wallows in it's sweetness... passing out with much virtual euphoria.

We can ALL dream.. right.

I hereby submit the Goldilocks Workflow for player vote and submission to Eric.

 

Said workflow is not too hot and not too cold.. but rather is just right.

 

When applied generously to class balance activities by the devs.... harmony and bliss blossom forth and the community wallows in it's sweetness... passing out with much virtual euphoria.

 

We can ALL dream.. right.

Two questions.

What are you smoking?

Can I have some?

I'm not a forum warrior. But I feel compelled to add my response. I agree with the points made about sorc/sage DPS in this post. The issues are low survivability and low DPS based on objective, real world measures such as Torparse. And there are worrying signs on the horizon.

Sorc DPS specs such as Madness/Balance have resource issues that do not permit the use of heals. Those of us who play DPS sorcs at a high level know that "H2F" is simply not acceptable. It displays a worrying level of ignorance. Other DPS classes have true defensive cooldowns that do not consume resource and do not cost a GCD, much less a lengthy, interruptible channel. Sorc self healing and their sole defensive "cooldown" serve only to reduce their barely competitive DPS output to unacceptable levels.

Low survivability is fine. A hybrid tax inflicted on random ACs is not. And the introduction of Arenas makes class balance a serious concern. I pay more attention to deeds than words. This game has a track record of making significant changes based on PVP that negatively impact PVE gameplay. Since I focus on PVE, this is of major concern to me. I already know I disagree with BW's perspective about my primary class. Even if BW did signal changes to sages/sorcs, given the evidence they're more likely to damage the class further than help. (How about a new defensive cooldown that prevents you from moving when your only PVP survivability lies in kiting and LOS?)

BW's dev response displayed a lack of analysis and insight compared to classes that are widely acknowledged to be Flavor Of The Year. More importantly, it showed their views on sorc/sage diverge wildly from that of people who actually play them. Even if they agreed changes were needed, we can't trust them to make the right ones. I seriously regret the fact I've geared my DPS sorc to the extent I have. I regret winning rolls for gear that could have gone to a class BW actually intends to support. I regret my part in not making my progression raid stronger. It's a shame I can't transfer this gear to an alt that would actually be worth playing. I know that sorcs were extremely popular at launch, and BW knows people will continue to play them no matter what they do. It's just a shame those people will end up with 55s with no future. And sorcs are hardly the worst class out there. They simply have issues BW is completely blind to.

To conclude: I'm not interested in words. I'm interested in actions. BW has made clear they intend no class changes until at least 2.5, and they see nothing that needs to be changed anyway, and more importantly their judgment can't be trusted. Therefore there's no reason to anticipate any action on their part. They can check my sub status to see the action I have taken.

I encourage those of you who agree to take concrete steps. Actions, not words. The only thing that works.

Just to throw this in : Eric said at the Cantina event in Germany that they are well aware of the mistake Blizzard did with wow and their arenas.

He said that the mistake was to balance the classes around / for the arenas.

And this is something Bioware wants to avoid.

So I have it in my memory.

Please give me ONE example of a (rational) player requesting a change for THEIR class (PvP or PvE) that would negatively impact the other...I see none of that!!! EVER! Most people who ask for a change to their class, participate in both PvP and PvE...the idea that you can't improve a class without hurting one or the other (PvP vs PvE) is preposterous imo.

 

Most changes being requested are universal to EITHER aspect of gameplay - resource management, dps increase, better survivability, better mobility...I don't agree with your premise that it's PvP vs. PvE...it's not.

Your being combative TUX. I don't make the decision. There is no point in arguing this with me. I have no say in whether or not this happens, so you can relax.

I will point out, however, that the Overload change was directly for the benefit of PVP, as was the animation completion change, and both were considered detrimental changes to PVE by some folks....including me. In fact the animation trigger change is widely considered one of the worst changes made to the game, PVE wise in my experience.

I also believe that changes occurred in the past for PVE that hurt PVP.

And I am not establishing any premise. I am saying that PVP vs PVE should not exist, and will not exist as long as the entire game is considered when changes are proposed, not just PVP or PVE.

You seem to be a bit defensive. That makes little to no sense to me. You have an opinion, I have an opinion, your not under attack here.

The balance crusade thing? It's not something I made up....it's history. Like it or not. It happened. I also pointed out that doesn't mean it would happen here, but that does not change the fact that in most games where some kind of Arena element was added to the game AND they focused on Arena balance for changes instead of considering the entire game a balance crusade was the result.

All they have to do is demonstrate some caution. That might be what they are doing now.

Just to throw this in : Eric said at the Cantina event in Germany that they are well aware of the mistake Blizzard did with wow and their arenas.

He said that the mistake was to balance the classes around / for the arenas.

And this is something Bioware wants to avoid.

So I have it in my memory.

Well, that is good to hear. I hope that remains the case.

Hey dscount,

 

I can completely appreciate the request, it is just not something that we would do. Internally, it isn't like we have a meeting once a week to discuss things like this where I can come out of the meeting and provide an update. Part of it is that even if changes were to come for Sorcerers/Sages, they would not be coming for some time. As we have stated we are not really planning any big balance changes coming in to 2.4.

 

What I can say is that I will provide you all with updates as I have them. It just wouldn't be logical that every week I came on the forums and said "still no updates, check back next week!" I know it can be hard sometimes but I assure you that things like this don't fall off my radar and I am always eager to deliver you all updates as I have them.

 

As an example, I can assure you Assassins and Shadows have not been forgotten, I just don't have any new updates. We are still actively having discussions about all classes and their balance but I wont pass that on until we have things locked down and more concrete.

 

-eric

If you don't want to post week after week "nope still no update!" then make the devs GIVE you one. It's been over 7 weeks now since you said you were going to look into it. Has it honestly taken you two months to look through all the data? After two months you have absolutely nothing you can say? What in God's name are you talking about? How much more awesome double bladed lightsabers look?

I'm sorry, but considering last week's sorc/VG answers, I have to say I don't believe you. You want us to believe you're constantly "actively having discussions about all classes and their balance" and then you come back with the trash that was last week's answers? You spend over 7 weeks talking about shadow tanks and you have absolutely nothing? Not even a "We've looked into it and it is an issue but we aren't sure how to fix it"?

This leads me to believe the devs are either liars, and paying you to lie for them, or incompetent. Which conclusion should I draw Eric?

If you don't want to post week after week "nope still no update!" then make the devs GIVE you one.

Community team is lower on the totem pole than any of the developers, they can't make them do anything.

It's been over 7 weeks now since you said you were going to look into it. Has it honestly taken you two months to look through all the data? After two months you have absolutely nothing you can say? What in God's name are you talking about? How much more awesome double bladed lightsabers look?

As frustrating as it is, some companies have strict NDA rules about content that sometimes don't seem to make much sense, because it's a big lumbering corporation that has rules and regulations that need to be followed. They aren't lying to you, they aren't not doing it just because they're lazy or want to annoy you, they're just working within a set of corporate rules that have been passed down from executives that may not necessarily even be in touch with the development team in any way.

I do think a few things about this...just my opinion mind you, which in the end means next to nothing.

1) The PVP population is hardly a majority of the playerbase in this game, so claiming that a lack of good PVP will kill this game is pretty silly IMO.

2) Bioware could have handled this better IMO.

3) Despite the likely fact that the PVP community is a small part of the gaming community at large, PVP is still important and all players are important....but....

4)....the entire game must be considered when looking at balance IMO, not just PVP. Making changes that benefit PVP at the expense of the majority of remaining players is crazy at best....certainly not a wise move. Many game companies have already learned this lesson the hard way.

There are folks that say the game should be balanced around PVP, or that PVP changes always benefit the entire game. Both claims are completely baseless IMO.

It seems it is pretty difficult for the PVP community to accept that it might be possible that PVP changes are not going to be made until consideration is made for the rest of the game, and that is probably going to take time.

PVP folks have not been treated well here. That much is obvious, and I think they deserve some recognition and content...they DO NOT, however, deserve to control or dominate the balance conversation in this game IMO...not by a long shot.

Just to throw this in : Eric said at the Cantina event in Germany that they are well aware of the mistake Blizzard did with wow and their arenas.

He said that the mistake was to balance the classes around / for the arenas.

And this is something Bioware wants to avoid.

So I have it in my memory.

Biowares solution is just to never do balance !

Really? Sorcs are complaigning about damage or survivability?

My sorc regularly hits 400-600k damage in any warzone AND 150-300k healing done. It is not hard. DoT spec built properly can be a near unstopable plague an enemy team's healer has no chance at stopping all the while every crit of my DoT's is healing me constantly. Bubble melee allies jumping intot he thick of it and tossing out the occasional quick heal when an ally is getting pummeled.

Sorc's are flexable and all specs CAN heal. Not prolonged constant healing but if you are DoT or lightning spec you can easily heal, use 2 damage skills thata re specced to regen energy, heal, use one dmg regen, heal, use 2 dmg regen, heal....cycle back and forth and you won't run out of energy all while helping your allies.

If you are lightning spec complaining that you are a glass cannon, you are foolish. The entire spec is designed to make you a cannon (and any lightning spec that is allowed to free cast WILL destroy a team) but your durability is near zero for that purpose. The problem is you aren't smart in your positioning nore in your moving fromt hat position after a few shots so people don't SEE you just standing still and free casting.

Yes, a sorc can "heal to full" using the freebie self heal, smart bubbles, and smart use of cycling skills. No, you cannot "heal to full" while under direct attack. Guess what? Neither can any heal spec out there. Any class I play, if I lock down a healer their health will inevitably shrink, it is all about smart use of interpts and knowing to ignore the fast cast weak heal a single damage skill can undo but to save it for the bigger cast heals they will be forced to rely on. I've seen backstab spec ops regularly break line of sight, use a few HoTs, wait a few seconds keeping LoS broken before getting back into a fight...it is called smart fighting. They heal to full while regnerating energy ontop of it all without breaking combat. You all just got butthurt over assuming "heal to full" means while under direct attack.

You ARE capable of healing to full assuming you break LoS, I do it all the time while my DoTs eat away at the enemy. Really, the problem is with your tactics for the class choice. If you want to stand still and unload...sniper/merc is your choice with a far stronger lean on sniper. Oh...but then you couldn't respec to heal on raids huh? Boo hoo...use different characters for different things.

I've said it before, I'll say it again...do not ask for class balance from the general population, none of them are honestly interested in balance, they want more than balance when the balance exists, it just doesn't fit with their chosen playstyle which may not fit the class they choose to play.

I have no comment or opinion on a "hybrid" tax or no hybrid tax on the part of devs. It's a pointless discussion designed to create argument IMO.. as there is always a trade-off in hybrid classes in MMOs in my experience.

Statement 1 + Opinion 1 = Oxymoron.

Really? Sorcs are complaigning about damage or survivability?

 

My sorc regularly hits 400-600k damage in any warzone AND 150-300k healing done. It is not hard. DoT spec built properly can be a near unstopable plague an enemy team's healer has no chance at stopping all the while every crit of my DoT's is healing me constantly. Bubble melee allies jumping intot he thick of it and tossing out the occasional quick heal when an ally is getting pummeled.

 

Sorc's are flexable and all specs CAN heal. Not prolonged constant healing but if you are DoT or lightning spec you can easily heal, use 2 damage skills thata re specced to regen energy, heal, use one dmg regen, heal, use 2 dmg regen, heal....cycle back and forth and you won't run out of energy all while helping your allies.

 

If you are lightning spec complaining that you are a glass cannon, you are foolish. The entire spec is designed to make you a cannon (and any lightning spec that is allowed to free cast WILL destroy a team) but your durability is near zero for that purpose. The problem is you aren't smart in your positioning nore in your moving fromt hat position after a few shots so people don't SEE you just standing still and free casting.

 

Yes, a sorc can "heal to full" using the freebie self heal, smart bubbles, and smart use of cycling skills. No, you cannot "heal to full" while under direct attack. Guess what? Neither can any heal spec out there. Any class I play, if I lock down a healer their health will inevitably shrink, it is all about smart use of interpts and knowing to ignore the fast cast weak heal a single damage skill can undo but to save it for the bigger cast heals they will be forced to rely on. I've seen backstab spec ops regularly break line of sight, use a few HoTs, wait a few seconds keeping LoS broken before getting back into a fight...it is called smart fighting. They heal to full while regnerating energy ontop of it all without breaking combat. You all just got butthurt over assuming "heal to full" means while under direct attack.

 

You ARE capable of healing to full assuming you break LoS, I do it all the time while my DoTs eat away at the enemy. Really, the problem is with your tactics for the class choice. If you want to stand still and unload...sniper/merc is your choice with a far stronger lean on sniper. Oh...but then you couldn't respec to heal on raids huh? Boo hoo...use different characters for different things.

 

I've said it before, I'll say it again...do not ask for class balance from the general population, none of them are honestly interested in balance, they want more than balance when the balance exists, it just doesn't fit with their chosen playstyle which may not fit the class they choose to play.

This is all fine for casual pvp or casual pvp were the expectation for damage is not that high. When you get into ranked or Hardcore pve all those self heals go out the window. First off dps sorcs are the worst ranged dps in the game right now, no argument there its just true. Having no cooldown and now having that expectation to heal yourself makes you even worse off in the dps department.

Dps Mercs can heal, as a matter of fact their heals are even faster then a sorcs and they currently have 2 cooldowns and are getting another 1! Dps mercs also have better dps then sorcs and also have heavy armor. So clearly heals are not meant to be part of your survival but since the combat team doesn't wanna do anything thats just what they are going to say.

Dps Sins are fine too right? 400-500 or more behind marauders or snipers on almost every pve fight, but its okay because they have stealth

Biowares solution is just to never do balance !

C'mon now, this is a bold-faced lie. They have consistently found a way to buff the FOTM (or is it FOTY now) classes. And you must know that the Marauder QoL buffs and the lack of offensive CDs for Snipers are priority fixes that simply must be addressed lest the entire game remain broken for longer than necessary.

If you think about the big picture though, it all makes sense: there are too many ACs and specs to balance properly, and with the current skeleton crew working diligently at their current pace... Yeah, its so not happening. So, if you just let all the underperforming specs simply wither and die, then you can pare things down and concentrate on the AC's you want to continue to support moving forward..

It will be a ton easier to balance both PvE content and PvP arenas if you know all that's left to work with is Jugg tanks, Mara/Sniper DPS, and Op healers.

Well... kind of confirms what I thought...

They don't care.

Been almost a month and we have not seen anything back, not even a simple update beyond REP system went into the drink.

Well... kind of confirms what I thought...

 

They don't care.

 

Been almost a month and we have not seen anything back, not even a simple update beyond REP system went into the drink.

They announced class reps two days ago. Not something that can be developed over night.

Perhaps not discussion, but actions always speak better then words.

Let this thread die, nothing more that is good can come from it. Lets move on

"Move along, move along"

C'mon now, this is a bold-faced lie. They have consistently found a way to buff the FOTM (or is it FOTY now) classes. And you must know that the Marauder QoL buffs and the lack of offensive CDs for Snipers are priority fixes that simply must be addressed lest the entire game remain broken for longer than necessary.

 

If you think about the big picture though, it all makes sense: there are too many ACs and specs to balance properly, and with the current skeleton crew working diligently at their current pace... Yeah, its so not happening. So, if you just let all the underperforming specs simply wither and die, then you can pare things down and concentrate on the AC's you want to continue to support moving forward..

 

It will be a ton easier to balance both PvE content and PvP arenas if you know all that's left to work with is Jugg tanks, Mara/Sniper DPS, and Op healers.

Hmmmm

I think for 16 man PvE content you'll still want 1-2 / 4 healers to be sorcs, if just for the Revivification and Static Barrier.

They announced class reps two days ago. Not something that can be developed over night.

 

Perhaps not discussion, but actions always speak better then words.

What are you talking about? They announced class reps almost three months ago.

The majority of the players only play the usual cookie cutter builds they get from websites and on top of that they don't know how to use it because they're following what some guy on the internet told them to do, like the usual elitist guild that only bring marauders to ops because some post on the forums said so, try to play with your builds and get to know your class by testing new builds, etc, instead of reading a guide some random guy wrote, sometimes is not about the class but more about the player.

Also why are Sorcs complaining about survivability?, oh yeah because half of you are not even speced for PvP and try to cast at melee range against melee enemies without even trying to kite them, do not cast a single cc on an enemy and do not use a single of their heal abilities until they're under 20% of health, yeah no wonder you guys die a lot. I know a quite a few good sorcerers and they're so hard to kill is not even worth focusing them sometimes, why?, because they do all the things I said above, they know when to flee, they know how to position themselves, because they know how to use their class.

About Arena balancing issue, they're not even out and you guys are already complaining about it, let's look at another game with Arenas, WoW, in WoW not every single Class, let alone build, are suitable for Arenas even tho it has years with the Arena system, but of course you guys want every single spec of your class to be viable for arenas and to fit every single matrix available in the game, truth is some specs are going to be better for Arenas than others, you gotta accept that and deal with it, if you want to go elitist and become hardcore on arenas reroll classes and specs that are good for it, AKA flavor of the month. I guarantee there are good players out there of each spec and each class that have a high rating and believe me is not the class. Also they're not wasting their time complaining about it on the forums because they know every class have their ups and downs. (this wasn't directed to sorcerers only)

To finish

The fact is, Marauders and Snipers cannot heal themselves to full

Peace.