We find math impossible, you find world firsts impossible, I find the Swtor community impossible, we all have our vices it would seem.

 

Hrm world firsts in 16m, Dread Guard, Operator, Kephess, TFB, Thrasher, Ops Chief, Olok, Warlords, Styrak.

and 16m world only TFB.

i guess you find getting your facts straight impossible.

So that's 9 world firsts in 16m for us. How many do you have in 8m?

Hrm world firsts in 16m, Dread Guard, Operator, Kephess, TFB, Thrasher, Ops Chief, Olok, Warlords, Styrak.

and 16m world only TFB.

 

i guess you find getting your facts straight impossible.

 

So that's 9 world firsts in 16m for us. How many do you have in 8m?

According to our spreadsheet: all of them.

Haven't you seen our S+V tracking document? After the communities unanimous decision last round of dungeons to go full RP points we created our own tracker. We full on blitzed World Firsts right down the line months ago. Sorry you missed the fun.

Obviously getting through the sniper phase was beyond their ability so they used an alternative method taking full advantage of the way they stack their raid. Good for them but now they are tweaking the fight to see if guilds can actually do it the way it was intended without ignoring the mechanics of the fight. Apparently they still need to tweak it further as adding 200k hps to the boss wasn't enough and guilds are still able to burn through the sniper spawns. If you want to do the fight as it was intended do it in 8m and actually overcome the mechanics instead of ignoring them.

There you go assuming again. We were making good progress on dealing with the 3 sniper packs during the first night, but someone noticed we had the boss to low 30% when they spawned and wondered aloud, could we burn it all so we tried it. We quickly realized it was possible so we just went with that. Obviously I can't prove it, but if we dealt with the 3 packs, I believe Thrasher would have died in 1 more raid night and being conservative, 2 raid nights.

There you go assuming again. We were making good progress on dealing with the 3 sniper packs during the first night, but someone noticed we had the boss to low 30% when they spawned and wondered aloud, could we burn it all so we tried it. We quickly realized it was possible so we just went with that. Obviously I can't prove it, but if we dealt with the 3 packs, I believe Thrasher would have died in 1 more raid night and being conservative, 2 raid nights.

You believing and you doing are 2 different things. In 8m you can't burn thrasher from 50% to dead while ignoring snipers maybe you should try it in 8m. That or next week do it with clearing the sniper nests instead of ignoring them.

I am glad bioware made these changes and is making an effort to improve the game and have players actually beat the mechanics instead of ignoring them.

According to our spreadsheet: all of them.

LOL you're a riot! Keeping turning bosses to HM that you can't beat in NiM in future instances and you can claim more world firsts. Your world rank in the TFB 8man thread is 15th. You don't get credit for firsts when you have to skip bosses in order to get them because your raid wasn't good enough to kill it.

I am glad bioware made these changes and is making an effort to improve the game and have players actually beat the mechanics instead of ignoring them.

Just like your guild ignored NiM Dread Guards by turning it down to HM because you weren't good enough to kill it on NiM?

You believing and you doing are 2 different things. In 8m you can't burn thrasher from 50% to dead while ignoring snipers maybe you should try it in 8m. That or next week do it with clearing the sniper nests instead of ignoring them.

I am glad bioware made these changes and is making an effort to improve the game and have players actually beat the mechanics instead of ignoring them.

Let's see the alternative. Why don't the excessively talented members of DNT kill Thrasher our way, since clearly its so easy. Maybe the reason you can't burn Thrasher like that on 8m is because your dps just isn't up to par?

Just like your guild ignored NiM Dread Guards by turning it down to HM because you weren't good enough to kill it on NiM?

Hey, you can't blame them. Fight was MATHEMATICALLY IMPOSSIBLE!!

Let's see the alternative. Why don't the excessively talented members of DNT kill Thrasher our way, since clearly its so easy. Maybe the reason you can't burn Thrasher like that on 8m is because your dps just isn't up to par?

I guess when you are good enough to overcome the mechanics you don't have to try to burn thrasher through sniper nests. I guess you should try it in 8m and tell me how it goes I'm only used to doing it the normal way:P

The changes to warlords and to thrasher I feel are good changes though it definitely seems like they made it much easier in 16m to clear the sniper nests and have that extra time to finish off the boss.

Your world rank in the TFB 8man thread is 15th. You don't get credit for firsts when you have to skip bosses in order to get them because your raid wasn't good enough to kill it.

We don't recognize (and stopped participating in) that progression thread because we disagree with the rules set by the people running it, rules that conveniently favor the decisions of the guilds writing and participating in it. I'm sure if we were running it it'd be the opposite.

It's supremely arrogant to act like the arbiter of who gets credit for what. Our position is we killed the bosses in question before anyone else in the world, which is still true.

If you were intellectually consistent you'd renounce any claim to having cleared 16m NiM SnV past and including Thrasher because you're obviously not doing Thrasher in the intended way - killing the boss by ignoring half of the fight because it's undertuned in certain ways for your raid size, and your raid is apparently "not good enough to kill" it the right way.

We don't recognize that progression thread because we disagree with the rules set by the people running it, rules that conveniently favor the position of the guilds writing and participating in it. I'm sure if we were running it it'd be the opposite.

 

It's supremely arrogant to act like the arbiter of who gets credit for what. Our position is we killed the bosses in question before anyone else in the world, which is still true.

 

If you were intellectually consistent you'd renounce any claim to having cleared 16m NiM SnV past and including Thrasher because you're obviously not doing Thrasher in the intended way - killing the boss by ignoring half of the fight because it's undertuned in certain ways for your raid size, and your raid is apparently "not good enough to kill" it the right way.

I'm sorry DnT is a joke compared to what it used to be in WoW, that must be emotionally challenging to handle. Changing a difficulty and finding a different way to kill something are two totally different things. Pretty much the entire raiding community, except for yourselves of coarse (that speaks volumes), voiced their opinion that turning a boss fight difficulty down to get by it nullifies credit for future kills. Not participating in the next progression race just shows your raids lack of confidence in itself to compete for the world firsts.

If you were intellectually consistent you'd renounce any claim to having cleared 16m NiM SnV past and including Thrasher because you're obviously not doing Thrasher in the intended way - killing the boss by ignoring half of the fight because it's undertuned in certain ways for your raid size, and your raid is apparently "not good enough to kill" it the right way.

If you were intellectually consistent you would realize that the bosses were intended to be killed in the order in which they were placed in the instance.

We don't recognize (and stopped participating in) that progression thread because we disagree with the rules set by the people running it, rules that conveniently favor the decisions of the guilds writing and participating in it. I'm sure if we were running it it'd be the opposite.

 

It's supremely arrogant to act like the arbiter of who gets credit for what. Our position is we killed the bosses in question before anyone else in the world, which is still true.

 

If you were intellectually consistent you'd renounce any claim to having cleared 16m NiM SnV past and including Thrasher because you're obviously not doing Thrasher in the intended way - killing the boss by ignoring half of the fight because it's undertuned in certain ways for your raid size, and your raid is apparently "not good enough to kill" it the right way.

What if the ranking was something like

                                  guild 1       guild 2       guild 3        guild 4 
boss 1                        1st             2nd            3rd             4th
boss 2                        1st             2nd            3rd             4th
boss 3                        2nd            1st             4th             3rd
final boss/full clear     2nd            1st            3rd             4th
title                             3rd             4th           1st              2nd


*with timestamps
**no points

So this way you can easily say......

Guild 2, world 1st full clear

Guild 1 world 1st boss1 and boss2, world 2nd full clear

Guild 3 world 1st title run

Guild 4 world 2nd title run

etc etc

Is there a detriment to a simple tracking method like this?

p.s. also there has to be some sort of "agreement" thoguh; no HM skipping to down the easier bosses. BW after all said they are working to separate the HM and NiM mode lockouts so might as well run through the full instance in NiM.

I'm sorry DnT is a joke compared to what it used to be in WoW, that must be emotionally challenging to handle. Changing a difficulty and finding a different way to kill something are two totally different things. Pretty much the entire raiding community, except for yourselves of coarse (that speaks volumes), voiced their opinion that turning a boss fight difficulty down to get by it nullifies credit for future kills. Not participating in the next progression race just shows your raids lack of confidence in itself to compete for the world firsts.

People who post on the forums are not "the entire raiding community," I assure you. The forum population is miniscule compared to the number of people running ops, and the player base at large.

I will note you entirely ignored where I dissected your position and showed you to be a hypocrite.

If you were intellectually consistent you would realize that the bosses were intended to be killed in the order in which they were placed in the instance.

Except I don't take your position on the ranking system, so I am perfectly intellectually consistent. You should think that out a little more.

This gon be good.

 

 

brb popcorn

This thread has delivered!

for anyone outside of these banters reading this, realize that never , ever, EVER, will you see an 8man group say "hey, lets jump this to 16man to clear this easy mode".

But what you will see, and we have witnessed, is 16man groups say , "we are dropping this to 8man to clear this and get loot" after a night of wiping near the end of the weekly reset.

There is a reason for this. the ultimate challenge is at 16man.

What you will see is people not looking to step up or take on the challenge to prop themselves up to the same level. This of course is obvious and only makes them look tired post after post.

winning the little league world series DOES NOT EQUAL winning the world series.

10/10 - Would read again.

Interesting that the burn strat still works. We've essentially been going through progression again and trying to find something that can be as consistent as the pre-patch strat. Fun stuff

for anyone outside of these banters reading this, realize that never , ever, EVER, will you see an 8man group say "hey, lets jump this to 16man to clear this easy mode".

 

But what you will see, and we have witnessed, is 16man groups say , "we are dropping this to 8man to clear this and get loot" after a night of wiping near the end of the weekly reset.

 

There is a reason for this. the ultimate challenge is at 16man.

 

What you will see is people not looking to step up or take on the challenge to prop themselves up to the same level. This of course is obvious and only makes them look tired post after post.

 

winning the little league world series DOES NOT EQUAL winning the world series.

We cleared 4/5 TFB tonight. One shotted everything up until kephess. Spent about two hours/30 mins

Following is 100% my opinion

TWH- We 15 manned it not difficult in 8 or 16. had to hold dps at 21% as we do in 8M to wait for third puddle.

DG- P3 on 16 is crazy intense. First two felt lackluster, only 1 lightning storm/1 shield ***? Can't judge didn't run pre nerf. P3 was real fun nothing like that in 8M outside pre- nerf DPS check.

Op-9 Phase one felt like a flashpoint. Had plenty of time to hold/kill adds in phase one before swapping colors. Phase 2 was fun/intense, AoE DMG is non existent in 8M that it requires you to stack or die. 4 adds is a nice touch. About same 8-16 8 = dps check 16 = heals (p2)

Kephess- Wiped 5-6 times, first pull was a 1% wipe . Seems more dps intensive early (pre 50%) but the final burn you can do without all dps up. Had to hold at 51% and 11% to get an extras tower/burn same as 8. Nanities seem same from 8-16. Jump/lazer move didn't one shot anyone (2 sorcs/5 ops). Had seen rumors it does in 16.

TFB- Didn't kill got to 2nd set of tentacles then someone had to go. Phase one was fun, adds seemed to die quick compared to 8. Didn't see healers attempting to dps like you are able to in 8. Phase 2 irregularities don't do trivial damage like they do in 8M (W/cds), might be a hindrance eating slams and having healers heal through that in 16. Seems like you can run an extra healer this fight considering how fast tentacles were dying. Anoms requires multiple people in 16 which was nice.

Raid comp was

PT tank

Jugg tank

Dps

Sorc

2 op

2 mara

1 merc

3 snipers

healers

x3 op

1 sorc

I Loled at your comment, because what DnT guy says its true, is as simple as that, 16 man can make 2 8 man gruops... 8 man normally doesnt have 8 more to spare to form a 16 man... thats common sense to know... also its easy to know that normally a 16 man group has between 6-7 maybe 8 super great players, then a mix of Good-Decent to fill... that would make a Great World first 16 man group (because having 16 together is just way harder than 8 man, so cant expect 16 of the best)... so when u split those 16, get rid of the "fillers" decent players, and group the 7-8 great players, of course 8 man is easier, because u are not carrying under performing players + less lag + less FPs, because half a 16 man good group, can probably divide into a really good 8 man, simple.

heres my example, mixed our A+B groups, first time ever playing 16 man for 15/16 besides milas, no one had any idea, or saw videos, we just went in for fun....

WH 1 shot easy (15 man it)

http://i.imgur.com/rvyL9yv.jpg

DG 1 shot easy

http://i.imgur.com/RAQtVkQ.jpg

OP a complete joke

http://i.imgur.com/sslBlxs.jpg

Kephess had a one shot, wipe at 1% for noobs, but i can say this seems like a harder fight than in 8 NiM At least.

http://i.imgur.com/Vyy2fNO.jpg

did couple of tries on TFB... P1 is super easy in comparison... P2 healing is just as hard if not harder than dps in P1 8 man, without cheesing P1 with dmg buff thingie... still have my same theory between 8 vs 16 after trying this, healing is WAY harder in 16, while dps is just, meh, incredibly lower requirement compared to 8.

the fps are really annoying, you need to get used to it or adjust your pc with it, most people in 8 man used to play at high settings / graphics, do cause problems, and its highly noticeable, when you grab one of my dps whos in every single 8 man chart ranking... when hes doing 500-800 dps less in 16 man, is not skills trust me, neither the super hard hidden mechanic, just that this game is not good supporting big raids, and its something you need to get used to... playing at 15 fps vs 80 fps is a huge difference unfortunately.

in conclussion: the 8 to 16 transition is way harder than 16 to 8.. because there are many things (including players lol) u need to adjust to do a 16 raid from an 8 man... where 16 have everything in favor to transition to 8... get rid of the baddies, play in way better conditions, Easier to Sync 8 good players than 16 good/bad/decent together plus schedules, idk whats so hard to understand, if you guys think 8 is so easy, bring your best 8 next content compete with the 6-7 good 8 man guilds, instead of being big fish in small pond, its 1, now 2 16 man guilds competing, rest died or fell behind...

the top 2-3 16 man guilds are great and you performance in 16 is outstanding and impressive, have some of the best players in the world and all that... but if 16 mans want to talk **** about 8 man raiding, bring it on and try to beat us in 8 man content and show us how is done,

PD: continue the conversation this forums need some spice lately, been really boring lately, the classic 8 v 16 raid comparison can make it fun for a couple of days .

All the competent 16m raids read this and /guffaw

so SG and intrepid? and i guess FF after reform, i dont see a lot of movement in 16 lately... lol

so SG and intrepid? and i guess FF after reform, i dont see a lot of movement in 16 lately... lol

That's because other than wanting the greatest challenge possible, there is no benefit to doing 16 man at all. Without significant rewards, most people will take the easier path. Now, I'm not saying 8 man NiM TFB or S & V is easy at all, but based on my experience, it is generally less difficult in operations than 16 man. The exact opposite of this occurs on World Boss fights like Toborro's Courtyard and Xeno, where they are much easier in 16 man than they are in 8. We have dropped to 8 man in Intrepid on various occasions when doing NiM operations and most of the time, the fights have been less difficult (mostly close with a few painful exceptions)..

There's a hugely important consideration here that you guys in Hatred are missing and that is that you are doing 16 man after already completely clearing 8 man repeatedly. This makes such a big difference because you guys are already heavily experienced for NiM mechanics in general and your overall level of gear is much higher than every guild who did it or are currently in progression.

On pre-pre-nerf 16 man Dread Guards, we struggled with the fight for various reasons, but when we went to 8 man to try to get some gear on an off-day, we got Kel'Sara to less than 15% repeatedly. If we had all 4 of our top DPS on that one day to play, I'm confident we'd have beaten it because the gap in damage from our average DPS and the lowest was enough (it was a pretty big gap) that we'd be able to kill Kel'Sara through her enrage.

Anyways, there's not much point in discussing the difficulty of the fights since 16 man guilds do 8 man and 8 man guilds don't do 16 man until they've already have weeks of experience and a huge gear advantage to start. 8 man guilds are certainly welcome to try 16 man during actual progression. It'd be certainly great to have more guilds involved.

On pre-pre-nerf 16 man Dread Guards, we struggled with the fight for various reasons, but when we went to 8 man to try to get some gear on an off-day, we got Kel'Sara to less than 15% repeatedly. If we had all 4 of our top DPS on that one day to play, I'm confident we'd have beaten it because the gap in damage from our average DPS and the lowest was enough (it was a pretty big gap) that we'd be able to kill Kel'Sara through her enrage.

 

That was what Carl was refering to do. In 8M you need max accountability from every single player. In 16 you can have god dps carry non god dps and be fine. Obviously you can't have bad dps but you bring someone that doesn't have the ability to play their class in a high tier (1-3% ) if you have others playing in that tier.

On that same note fielding 16 players that are all good mechanically is a challenge. Will openly admit 16 demands more raid awareness/reaction time than 8M does.

I ran 16 content until I joined Hatred and hate these arguments.

I personally feel 16 is more tank/healing intensive and 8M requires all DPS to perform on a high level while in 16 if you have 4-5 dps perform on a high level and the rest on a ok level you'll be fine.

Pretty much true. But Dps is easy, its basically the easiest mechanic in the game. And your even given a dummy to practice over and over on. So when there is less damage going out, less people to look out for, less collateral damage, the fight mechanics are easier and you can focus on DPS which is not hard to begin with... where is the challenge, where is the precision.

Again this thread was created to show that EA has changed a fight to a particular strat on Thrasher. And that strat required God Mode dps in 72 gear, but is easier now in 75 gear so people are calling it cheese. So be it.

Some would say that rolling into TFB 16M with 75 gear, 2 months after release, brandishing them world first titles on post nerf fights, is total cheese. I wouldn't say that. I would say .....Welcome to the Majors mother******

8M - alt mode

16M - champ mode

Some things will never change.