So... what.. right now.. Sorc/Sage DPS we are down 10-15% vs pure DPS + can heal? I really don't see that as unreasonable.

It's not unreasonable in theory. Where it falls apart is when you're picking an ops team. For most ops teams, the healers are going to be handling all the healing. Why would you bring a dps class that's not going to be as effective as another class (assuming players of equal skill) when their added benefit (off heals) is not needed? That doesn't make sense. And that's why it's an issue. It's not that it's a terrible set up, in theory, but in practice it just doesn't function like that.

I'm of the mind that DPS specs should not be able to heal anywhere close to effectively, while Healing specs of the same class should not be able to DPS efficiently.

If Sage/Sorc DPS damage isn't close to other DPS classes damage, then it needs buffed to make it competitive.

Hybrid specs, because they are hybrid, should not be anywhere close to as good as a pure of either spec. Hybrid should bring mediocrity...okay at both but not to the point of over-powering a full spec.

At no point should a DPS spec's survivability depend on its healing abilities simply because they have them, as we all know how slow and bad the larger heals are in Sorc/Sage are.

Which was one of the more farcical aspects of the response; have you ever tried to fill in for a downed healer as a 3/36/7 Sorc?

Good Luck with that, the base-line heals for the Sorc class barely find utility when fully specced into Corruption for the buffs.

I mean, do people actually use Dark Heal in End-Game Healing, at all?

...which is why I think they should have set up the trees in each AC as Tank, Heal, DPS with approximately the same performance, but a few unique turns per class.

One class would be the best AoE healer, one the best AoE damage. Same with single target. One tank would be better at mitigation, another at agro control. One would be best at AoE CC, the other at single target CC...etc.

That way each class would bring unique perks inside the classic roles for each tree.

IMO a light armor DPS heal hybrid, if it was left that way, should be viable with a medium armor DPS as far as DPS output and mitigate using self heals with a proper regeneration mechanic....I suggested AoE damage abilities that heal the caster for a small amount as they do damage....as well as a single target health leech.

This would be one way to give survivability to the class.

It's not unreasonable in theory. Where it falls apart is when you're picking an ops team. For most ops teams, the healers are going to be handling all the healing. Why would you bring a dps class that's not going to be as effective as another class (assuming players of equal skill) when their added benefit (off heals) is not needed? That doesn't make sense. And that's why it's an issue. It's not that it's a terrible set up, in theory, but in practice it just doesn't function like that.

Well, the only place it can really be considered in any way sub-optimal would be in OPs raids. But even then... a well played and geared Sorc/Sage can still pull their weight vs pure DPS and have some additional emergency utility. So in the end.. this smells like leet min/max mindset in an OPs environment.

Sure in a min/max raid formation.. it fails.. because that's 10% less DPS....but this game really does not work on extreme raid (OPs) like some other MMOs insist on doing.

Well, the only place it can really be considered in any way sub-optimal would be in OPs raids. But even then... a well played and geared Sorc/Sage can still pull their weight vs pure DPS and have some additional emergency utility. So in the end.. this smells like leet min/max mindset in an OPs environment.

 

Sure in a min/max raid formation.. it fails.. because that's 10% less DPS....but this game really does not work on extreme raid (OPs) like some other MMOs insist on doing.

To exclude classes from content due to design failures is unacceptable.

To exclude classes from content due to design failures is unacceptable.

Pretty much this, if a DPS Sorc has nothing that would help the operations group get closer to beating the enrage timer that other DPS classes can do better then they're useless, and that means a lot of people are paying to play with a class that's useless for a part of the game

To exclude classes from content due to design failures is unacceptable.

Exclusion is a player problem much more then a class design problem in this MMO. We're not talking about broken classes here.. we are debating over 10-15% dps differences. Hardly life changing in this games end game content.

Who in a raiding guild in this game would exclude a capable and competent Sage/Sorc for being a bit less DPS then say Mr Pew Pew? The OPs in this game are not that tough that you win/lose on this sore of min/max mindset. While learning a new OP... maybe.. if you are worried about timers. On farm status.. no way.

if you are referring to basic PUG mind set.. well.. that's always going to be a problem as the players will always perceive one class or more classes as red headed step children and other classes as FoTM.

Pretty much this, if a DPS Sorc has nothing that would help the operations group get closer to beating the enrage timer that other DPS classes can do better then they're useless, and that means a lot of people are paying to play with a class that's useless for a part of the game

Because end game content is raging hard in this game.

Because end game content is raging hard in this game.

It comes down to the simple fact that players of certain classes WILL be excluded if they are performing sub-par, regardless of how little below sub-par they are. 10-15% doesn't seem like much but it's enough to make or break some OP's groups running NiM or even trying to move through HM progression.

It may not be a big problem, but it is still an issue and needs addressed.

In the case of Sages and Sorcs, where both DPS and survivability are lower than other ranged DPS classes? Yes. Both.

You don't know how to play them than. My sorc hits 500k damage regularly AND 200k heals by th end of the bigger warzones.

Being able to heal others is a huge benefit (if you have heals and don't heal a ball carrier or help save someone in a rough 1 on 1 you really are laxing on utilizing ALL of your available skills) over those who can't.

Can you heal yourself and save yourself from a beatdown? No. Can you stun someone that is beating on an ally and then heal THEM? Why, yes, yes you can. Doing so will regularly save them actually.

Really it sounds like those who don't understand hybrid gameplay seriously need to rethink their chosen class. If you have access to heals, you always have them, therefore it is assumed you will actually put them to use in saving a teamate.

So many focus on the fact those heals don't help themselves all that much and then get butthurt over the tax. Guess what? They don't help you, they help your team. If you choose to not make proper use of them in tandem with other skills to rescue allies...what good are you? Sure you can cause 4k damage in timely hits or 4-6k in heals while the person you are helping does damage.

A team win is > your personal stats

It comes down to the simple fact that players of certain classes WILL be excluded if they are performing sub-par, regardless of how little below sub-par they are. 10-15% doesn't seem like much but it's enough to make or break some OP's groups running NiM or even trying to move through HM progression.

 

It may not be a big problem, but it is still an issue and needs addressed.

I understand.. but in a guild setting (assuming a mature and thoughtful guild) it's never just about class. There is also spec, gear, player skill, group balance all to factor in. Not to mention care and attention to all guild members.

If your context is random PUG of Ops.. enough said right there IMO. It's always going to be weenie sauce festing.

Also.... I'd take a well played Sorc over a mediocre Sniper any day. And I play both.

My point is that in group play.. it's not as two dimensional as simply raw player class. So every class does not need to be an exact harmonious match with every other class.

If Bioware made healing useless for a DPS Sorc and gave us a group buff like Marauders and Snipers have while making our DPS close to equal I would be extremely happy with that

I hope you're talking about Transcendence and not Inspiration. Inspiration was a massive QQ fest, and has been nerfed so hard that it's actually a hindrance to an op to use it, because not only is the boost negligible, but it also prevents you (and any other sentinels) from building centering to use an actually useful ability. If the devs make the change they mentioned during sentinel questions, and allow building centering during transcendence, then yeah, it'll be somewhat more potent. But not by much.

Because end game content is raging hard in this game.

Betcha you haven't cleared it, hard to raid when you're arguing semantics on the forums.

To exclude classes from content due to design failures is unacceptable.

My point exactly. Yes excluding people is an event that originates from the player base (as does everything for that matter...) but the reason it exists is very much a design failure pure and simple. As things are atm there is absolutely no reason why having the ability to heal as an otherwise DPS class should result in underwhelming DPS and overall survivability. Basically I just restated the point of my original post because, you know what, it is not so much a point as a FACT.

In a PvE perspective, If I ever see one of my dps self healing or healing others, I, as a healer, I'm a failure. That's MY responsability, not them.

Why Bioware insist on 2 damage trees on the non pure dps classes then? it would be better to have two distinct tank/healer trees and one dps tree then on the non-pure-dps classes.

You don't know how to play them than. My sorc hits 500k damage regularly AND 200k heals by th end of the bigger warzones.

Not to be flippant, however in the current environment 500K is pretty much middle of the road.

The last time I was that low for a full Warzone I was being tagged by two very annoying Sins who liked to chain punt my butt across NC.

Is OP asking to have a character class that does top-notch DPS and top-notch heals at the same time? Why not a class that does top-notch tanking and top-notch DPS? Then we'd only need 2 classes, DPS /healer and DPS/tank. Why not just have a class that does top-notch DPS/tank/heal?

I don't like class-based systems, but if we're going to have them, it makes for a more interesting game to have variety in classes.

Is OP asking to have a character class that does top-notch DPS and top-notch heals at the same time? Why not a class that does top-notch tanking and top-notch DPS? Then we'd only need 2 classes, DPS /healer and DPS/tank. Why not just have a class that does top-notch DPS/tank/heal?

 

I don't like class-based systems, but if we're going to have them, it makes for a more interesting game to have variety in classes.

I don't know how you could have possible gotten than from my OP, unless you simply didn't read it. What I clearly stated was that DPS classes with the ability to heal are unjustifiably punished with a lower overall DPS and survivability simply because they have healing abilities. Those abilities, however, not only fail to justify those loses but also are for all intents and purposes entirely obsolete when it comes to both PvE and PvP group content, and not even close to "top-notch" as you seem to imply (or you simply don't know what you are talking about).

I will put it in even simpler terms for you: The developers decided that purely DPS advanced classes that happen to have the ability to heal left over from picking that class (i.e. inquisitor --> sorcerer) should not be able to DPS nor have defensive abilities and cooldowns on par with other DPS classes that do not have the ability to heal, because apparently they perceive those latent healing abilities as giving said classes some kind of an advantage when in reality they are all but useless. Those are simply the facts about the state of the game at this time.

If you can't grasp that then I can't help you.

Is OP asking to have a character class that does top-notch DPS and top-notch heals at the same time? Why not a class that does top-notch tanking and top-notch DPS? Then we'd only need 2 classes, DPS /healer and DPS/tank. Why not just have a class that does top-notch DPS/tank/heal?

 

I don't like class-based systems, but if we're going to have them, it makes for a more interesting game to have variety in classes.

I think what the op is getting at is that healing as sage/sorc dps isn't very useful as is. It is highly inefficient all around without compromise of cast time, cost, or power; and the only time you have time to cast it is when you should dps, run away, or not be in trouble. Without a bonus to cast time, cost, or power there is little point in using the heal while you are in "combat" as there is little benefit from it. As an example, being beat up by one dps nets me with a negative gain on health while losing a tremendous amount of resources to cast, but not being under attack also nets me a slightly positive on another person ( any healing on myself can be worthless as my teammates die without me either way as I am effectively "CCed" for the duration of healing). The niche of usefulness is perceptively too small. Healing as dps should help YOUR survivability but not at the cost of your usefulness which is what is happening and why every one is upset at the answers that were given to us.

I think what the op is getting at is that healing as sage/sorc dps isn't very useful as is. It is highly inefficient all around without compromise of cast time, cost, or power; and the only time you have time to cast it is when you should dps, run away, or not be in trouble. Without a bonus to cast time, cost, or power there is little point in using the heal while you are in "combat" as there is little benefit from it. As an example, being beat up by one dps nets me with a negative gain on health while losing a tremendous amount of resources to cast, but not being under attack also nets me a slightly positive on another person ( any healing on myself can be worthless as my teammates die without me either way as I am effectively "CCed" for the duration of healing). The niche of usefulness is perceptively too small. Healing as dps should help YOUR survivability but not at the cost of your usefulness which is what is happening and why every one is upset at the answers that were given to us.

Exactly, thank you for reading my post.

Devs, buff rock - nerf scissors

~ Paper

Speaking AS a sorc player (a HEALING sorc, specced specifically FOR healing) I want you to know that if the devs go crazy and remove our ability to heal others I shall be very sad

Not claiming it is conclusive evidence but a point of reference for discussion.

Gunslinger/Sniper 3629

Scoundrel/Operative 3248 - can heal

Sentinel/Marauder 3221

Commando/Mercenary 3179 - can heal

Sage/Sorcerer 3164 - can heal

Vanguard/Powertech 3134

Guardian/Juggernaut 3039

Shadow/Assassin 2836

source: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=664980

Now carry on with the discussion "Why must the ability to TANK as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?"

I don't know how you could have possible gotten than from my OP, unless you simply didn't read it. What I clearly stated was that DPS classes with the ability to heal are unjustifiably punished with a lower overall DPS and survivability simply because they have healing abilities. Those abilities, however, not only fail to justify those loses but also are for all intents and purposes entirely obsolete when it comes to both PvE and PvP group content, and not even close to "top-notch" as you seem to imply (or you simply don't know what you are talking about).

 

I will put it in even simpler terms for you: The developers decided that purely DPS advanced classes that happen to have the ability to heal left over from picking that class (i.e. inquisitor --> sorcerer) should not be able to DPS nor have defensive abilities and cooldowns on par with other DPS classes that do not have the ability to heal, because apparently they perceive those latent healing abilities as giving said classes some kind of an advantage when in reality they are all but useless. Those are simply the facts about the state of the game at this time.

 

If you can't grasp that then I can't help you.

Are you kidding you arent punished with lower survivability your heals are your survivability. Why do you think a ranged class that can heal should even have above aberage dps. You habe more dls than a melee class that cant heal

I just played with my 55 sorc and sin and you can snooze while playing a sorc its already ezmode. The only thing tjat is detrimental to your survivability is your playstyle and attitude you arent rambo. You have max distance for a reason and its not face tanking

Not claiming it is conclusive evidence but a point of reference for discussion.

 

Gunslinger/Sniper 3629

Scoundrel/Operative 3248 - can heal

Sentinel/Marauder 3221

Commando/Mercenary 3179 - can heal

Sage/Sorcerer 3164 - can heal

Vanguard/Powertech 3134

Guardian/Juggernaut 3039

Shadow/Assassin 2836

 

source: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=664980

 

Now carry on with the discussion "Why must the ability to TANK as a DPS = underwhelming performance as a DPS?"

Just tank to full.

Devs, buff rock - nerf scissors

~ Paper

You mean "Rock is fine, nerf scissors."

It's supposed to go both ways to show that people will lie that the class they obliterate is fine while the class that wrecks them is overpowered.