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Assasin tank in 2.0


Biggreen

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For the record, as of today's build on PTS, Assassin just got *stupid* good.

 

Force Management is basically trivial. With a decent rate of shielding, I'm literally not using Saber Strike because I can't spend enough Force (Force Lightning is obscenely Force-positive whilst tanking).

 

On top of that, the extra charges in Dark Ward mean that tanking trash isn't a painful and dicey proposition.

 

2/2 in Conspirator's Cloak is almost a necessity now, because now there's significant opportunity to use Thrash, and Maul becomes very Force-efficient damage/threat. With the damage nerf to Shock, it also makes for a good stand-in to build even more threat than before.

 

I'm having a ton of fun with this PTS build, but I do have a very real concern that the devs went a hair too far and Assassin is now significantly overtuned. That's not a problem in and of itself, but I'd hope it's addressed via buffs to Juggernaut and Powertech tanks rather than negative rebalancing to Assassin.

 

They *finally* made it viable to do more than just Shock, Wither, Force Lightning, and Saber Strike (with the rare Thrash to avoid wasting Force), and I am digging it. With the sheer volume of Force that is available to spend now, Assassin is an obscene threat machine.

 

Here is a Hammer Station from tonight. It was late, I was a couple beers in, made a bunch of mistakes, and was still adjusting to the new Force regen rate. There's a lot more on the table here (including getting DTPS on the 2nd boss down significantly by not being a derp). Far and away my biggest mistake from the night was not making enough of an effort to Shroud/Interrupt "Torch" whilst tanking the other 2, because 60%+ of the damage taken in that fight was from his flamethrower.

 

DPS is up significantly, DTPS is down significantly, TPS is up very significantly, and FPS (fun per second) is off the scale. HPS will probably go up a bit too once I do a better/luckier job of using Energize procs to shorten time between FL channels. I frequently delayed FL one GCD to squeeze in a Maul so that I wouldn't badly overcap Force mid-channel.

 

Edit: Bulwark stacks are still capped at 8, FYI.

 

I would make the argument that force management was always fairly trivial on a Shadow/Assasin, at least compared to the other tanks, given that Force doesn't regenerate slower the less you have, and how quickly it regenerates to begin with. However, I agree the changes have made Shadow/Assasin a lot more powerful, but I am not sure if they are OP yet.

 

The changes to force costs have definitely made them easier to play, and the change to Ward is great, though sometimes on trash pulls I do still find myself having all of my charges eaten up because I just shield THAT damn much, but its usually only a second or two away from being usable again. I think some testing needs to be done to see if the higher shield chance Shadow/Assassin can obtain are properly offset by their lower armor values or not. I do still die on trash pulls if I try to pull too much, so I think at the very least they are not god tanks.

 

Whether or not the three classes are balanced I can't say, I think the Vg/PT have an advantage in that they get higher absorb values and higher armor, but I'm not sure about how Guard/Jugg fit into this model on the PTS currently. I will optimize my Vanguard tonight and see how well he stacks up to my Assassin in terms of durability and threat and post my general impressions for y'all.

Edited by Taleek
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To be clear: I don't give a hoot about being "the best" tanking class (I think that should vary based on what you're tanking, and generally be lower than the margin of error of a parse), I just want to play a viable tanking class that isn't outrageously more difficult for a group to accommodate (which is what Sin was in the first PTS build).

 

The thing is, I agree with this sentiment, but I think Assassins as they stood on the PTS (prior to this most recent patch) maintained their role they had on Live, that being the most difficult tank class to play in terms of staying alive, but the best tank class to play concerning long term survivability (less healing required over the course of a fight), threat, and cooldowns.

 

What the changes did do, was turn Shadow survivability into less of a player skill issue especially in boss fights (refreshing Kinetic Ward stacks in a boss fight will be about as difficult now as refreshing your accuracy debuff, which was also made even easier), make generating threat as a Shadow even less of an issue than it was before, while still maintaining the things that made a skilled Shadow a more viable asset in terms of endgame raiding.

 

I actually think Vanguards still sit in a really good spot, as they are STILL the simplest tank to play (winning out groups favor in things like pugs), and they fare amazingly well with the changes to shielding in this patch. But I'm a little worried about whats going to happen with Guardians/Juggs now, because even with the substantial buffs they received, I'm not sure it was enough to catch up with the other tanks. It looks like Assassin/Shadow are once again going to be the preferred progression tanks, and Vanguard/Powertech looks like it will not only be the preferred pug tank, but also be able to give Sins/Shadows a run for their money in the progression tank role.

 

Guardians/Juggs seem to be on the bottom of the totem pole once again, or more accurately, somewhere in the middle in no man's land, where they're never the favored tank for any type of content unless player skill makes up the difference in the actual tank class capabilities.

Edited by wadecounty
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Guardians/Juggs seem to be on the bottom of the totem pole once again, or more accurately, somewhere in the middle in no man's land, where they're never the favored tank for any type of content unless player skill makes up the difference in the actual tank class capabilities.

 

I don't really see being the "compromise tank" as being all that bad: Guardians are going to be *way* easier to play than they used to be, thanks to threat generation fixes as well as massive threat buffs and passive mitigation increases, so I highly doubt they'll be sidelined for either Ops or FPs. Their higher DR (15% increase armor from talents and 3% DR from Guardian Slash) coupled with the addition of Saber Reflect (seriously, Saber Reflect is *disgustingly amazing*) means that I'm not really worried about them not having the chops for F/T fights: they're going to have virtually the the same DR as a VG (175% armor rather than 176% but the same 9% increased DR that VGs get) and they have substantially better CDs than VGs as well as Blade Barrier to smooth out the potential burstiness.

 

Honestly, my biggest worry has continually been that Defense is just being tossed to the wayside with the exception of Guardians who actually have some use for it because they're stuck with the same low Shield/Abs that they currently have. My hope is that the devs are going to do *something* to make Defense rating apply to Resist chance or have the tank stances convert a percentage of total Defense chance into additional Resist chance such that Defense isn't just the lolstat it looks like it's gonna be.

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As someone who was happy about the tanks seeming to be balanced finally at the start of 2.0, this post is a soul crusher to me. Playing a Jugg tank myself, I was hoping the expansion might finally be our time to shine or at least stand on equal footing, but I guess not <hangs head in shame>

 

I'm not asking them to nerf Assassin tanks per se... but do they really have to be the best tank for all time, ever and ever? :/

 

except they aren't, and using multiple assassin tanks in an operation can be a hinderance to gearing up your raid, and can lead to drama if you have two inquisitor tanks, one or two inquisitor healers and one or two inquisitor dps. with neither jugg advanced class being able to heal this is not an issue

 

furthermore, raiding isn't about just standing there and taking it. you have to have situational awareness and know when to use what abilities. this has always meant that shadow/assassin tanking required a higher skill curve and still will. what has happened in the last few months is ridiculous gear inflation that made tanking a joke to the current content.

 

as much as many of us one or two decades mmorpg experienced vets would like it to be, the game can't be too hard. mmorpg's are a niche market of gaming that has hit a critical mass if the mass layoffs to mmorpg companies is any indicator. the game has to be accessible in order to maintain the most amount of players possible and keep revenue streaming to EA. remember, this is the same company that shut down earth and beyond even though it was profitable at the time. well, some of you were probably zygotes when that happened.

 

even blizzard is losing subs and they are not necessarily going to other mmorpg's. when my guild imploded after we beat heroic lady sinestra just a month and a half into cataclysm, only about 20% went to other mmorpgs. others just left the genre entirely and have not been back.

 

if shadows/assassins are the most populous tank, then having them also be the hardest to play to achieve the same mitigation as the other two tank types doesn't just hurt those individual players, but the community on the whole as the already-present stigma gets worse during a gear reset and fewer tanks become available in the queue. you already see complaints of hours long waits for dps players. now imagine if healers are waiting an hour or longer.

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furthermore, raiding isn't about just standing there and taking it. you have to have situational awareness and know when to use what abilities. this has always meant that shadow/assassin tanking required a higher skill curve and still will. what has happened in the last few months is ridiculous gear inflation that made tanking a joke to the current content.

 

Higher skill curve than what? I assume you mean Powertechs because Assassins don't require much skill compared to a Juggernaut. I use both my hybrid Juggernaut and Assassin tanks on the same content and literally the only skill you have to think significantly about on live with the Assassin is Force Shroud.

 

Personally, I have no issues with the current changes on 2.0 as they make the normal braindead 4 button rotation for doing damage as an Assassin tank far more interesting. The change to Dark Ward, though, negated one of the very few weaknesses Assassins had, but it was understandable given how ridiculous it was to tank large groups.

 

if shadows/assassins are the most populous tank, then having them also be the hardest to play to achieve the same mitigation as the other two tank types doesn't just hurt those individual players, but the community on the whole as the already-present stigma gets worse during a gear reset and fewer tanks become available in the queue. you already see complaints of hours long waits for dps players. now imagine if healers are waiting an hour or longer.

 

I'm not sure what server you are on, but I see far more Juggernaut tanks on the Harbinger than anything else. This is despite the fact that they are clearly the worst tanks on live and have been for a very long time. The appeal of the class is strong, though, so lots of people who think they look cool start one. Only to find in the end that they have work so much harder to do their job than any other tank so most give up.

 

So if you actually believe what you said, Bioware should go ahead and buff Juggernauts to the best. Of course, both of us are relying on anecdotal evidence and I'm being a bit sarcastic here, but you get the idea.

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If your kinetic ward is evaporating shortly after you enter combat and you are stuck waiting 8 seconds or so for it to come off cooldown, you need to rethink your kinetic ward rhythm. You want to put up kinetic ward several seconds before you pull a pack, so that by the time your stacks hit 0, kinetic ward is off cooldown and you can refresh the ward. This was true even before 2.0, so I cringe when I imagine that some shadow tanks still have not figured this out after a year.

 

Pre-2.0, kinetic ward timing required you to know when your current kinetic ward was going to fall off, and you had to time the ward cast so it wouldn't fall off while you were channeling telekinetic throw and so that you didn't waste force (hit 100 force OR use your new ward to shield when your old ward could have shielded the attack) or leave yourself unable to get off a Slow Time or Project (low force).

 

Post-2.0, the knowledge of kinetic ward uptime and cooldown becomes much more important for trash pulls, since more attacks can be shielded. But force management is not an issue anymore. Before trash pulls you will still want to refresh kinetic ward, wait a few seconds, and THEN pull a pack so that by the time your old ward evaporates, you can refresh a new one.

 

I suspect that in PvE boss fights these changes (0 force, 15 stacks) will make shadows a class that can essentially push a button to gain +20% shield, at 100% uptime and at close to 0 cost. Now instead of managing force for optimal kinetic ward usage you have to decide whether 20% shield or <9% absorb is better... and that's not a hard decision at all.

Edited by MGNMTTRN
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  • 4 weeks later...
Higher skill curve than what? I assume you mean Powertechs because Assassins don't require much skill compared to a Juggernaut. I use both my hybrid Juggernaut and Assassin tanks on the same content and literally the only skill you have to think significantly about on live with the Assassin is Force Shroud.

 

Personally, I have no issues with the current changes on 2.0 as they make the normal braindead 4 button rotation for doing damage as an Assassin tank far more interesting. The change to Dark Ward, though, negated one of the very few weaknesses Assassins had, but it was understandable given how ridiculous it was to tank large groups.

 

 

 

I'm not sure what server you are on, but I see far more Juggernaut tanks on the Harbinger than anything else. This is despite the fact that they are clearly the worst tanks on live and have been for a very long time. The appeal of the class is strong, though, so lots of people who think they look cool start one. Only to find in the end that they have work so much harder to do their job than any other tank so most give up.

 

So if you actually believe what you said, Bioware should go ahead and buff Juggernauts to the best. Of course, both of us are relying on anecdotal evidence and I'm being a bit sarcastic here, but you get the idea.

 

Check again, Shadow / Assassin tank is the hardest tank to control, Jug / Guard only hard because they keep losing threat while shadow wont. 4 Button ? with the lowest armor rate we have to know how to use our self heal to best, you think you could just use TLK any time is fine ? you think just pop Force Shroud at right time is fine ? A good shadow tank know how to optimize our TLK and Optimize the cool down of Force shroud. A bad shadow tank will die lead to wipe, a bad Guardian tank will lose threat.

 

Jug tank are alot in your server because of smash/ sweep monkey, check in ever pvp post, your server has a very high rate of monkey there.

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