I think we should move on from this so called 'math' and concern ourselves with tactics.

I think we should move on from this so called 'math' and concern ourselves with tactics.

 

Yes....math is evil. We don't need it!

As I said, it rivals an ISD. That is what is important. From there we can establish a connection between eras as both the ISD and the Venator served the same roles in their respective periods.

 

The Victory--I on the other hand, is irrelevant. It was introduced during the Clone Wars era, around the same time as the Venator itself. So that would not be an accurate of fair cross-comparison between eras.

 

Nonetheless you have a point about the ISD having less hanger space and therefore able to hold more guns. Given that I'd say that Venator is likely minorly less powerful than an ISD-I but I wouldn't say anything about Victorys.

 

I have no idea were you got those numbers from. But I prefer to use the statement that a Republic-SD possesses 20% superior firepower of an ISD, and therefore around 10% - 15% superior firepower to a Venator.

 

That is not enough. In order to take down two Venators it would have to be more than 100% superior to a single Venator. One. Hundred. Percent. That is simply not going to happen, so lets move along.

 

The Victory may have been introduced during the Clone wars but it was still in use during the GE meaning that is the bridge between the 2 so its entirely relavent. The Venator even with the Tech rule DOES NOT have any where NEAR the firepower of an Imp class. It has more then 400% of fighters of the Imp-classes. Its not just less ITS VASTLY LESS. Lets compare ones of my own Era shall we http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nebula-class_Star_Destroyer vs http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Endurance-class_fleet_carrier. Now the difference in fighter size is only a little over 200% here meaning the difference between the Imp Fighter size and the Venator Fighter is DOUBLE the difference of mine in a later era.

 

 

Now how much weaponry did this cost the endurance, A lot it lost well more then half of its firepower. This should be AT LEAST how much the Venator loses. In which case the Repub WOULD Have more then double the fire power of a Venator. There is no way a Venator holds 4 times the fighter base of something and retains that level of fire power. AND NO WHERE does it suggest it did. All it said was its 8 guns were equivlant to the 6 guns later. (if you are wondering about the math that would mean the later guns 1:1 are about 33% stronger just add 33% to all of its weapons and TAAAA DAAAA you have scaled it for era.)

 

Math is an important skill for all adult human beings to have. It has allowed science, innovation and construction on a scale and accuracy that just get better and better in time. Math is what helped make the computers we use now and tell you how to balance your check book so that you don't end up on the street or go to jail.

 

 

Edit: I will get to tactics when we can get these things out of the way because they are relavent to the success and failure of a tactic.

Edited February 20, 2014 by tunewalker

Yes....math is evil. We don't need it!

 

Well, since the Anti-life equation can destroy the world as we know it, I'm inclined to agree.

Well, since the Anti-life equation can destroy the world as we know it, I'm inclined to agree.

 

this is no where near as complicated as the Anti-life equation. That would take days just to write I am not about to start writing that when simple arithmatic and pre-algebra is all thats needed right now .

this is no where near as complicated as the Anti-life equation. That would take days just to write I am not about to start writing that when simple arithmatic and pre-algebra is all thats needed right now .

 

I know lol.

Oh something to think about. On Hapes Leia could potentially be as difficult to reach as Traya on Malachor. The reason being if firstly the Transistor Mists. The mists allow the AoW ships to bottle neck enemies in and put up inteception into a hail of bullets, allowing the AoW to take an edge in space combat since they know all the paths through the mists and where each path converges at (several paths converge on a single location called a Knot Hole). Allowing for never ending ambushes by the AoW. Secondly Hapes itself is the location of both the palace which is likely gaurded by a planetary shield but also http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Reef_Fortress_Island which is likely gaurded by the same. The only way to this place is supposedly accessible by boat. A water navy the DI does not have, but I do including Hapan Wave runners. Further more if you are not familiar with the waters natural defenses such as http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Carnivorous_seaweed can kill many of the troops that may be sent for her if they pass to close to one or have their boats disabled in any way. Edited February 20, 2014 by tunewalker

The Victory may have been introduced during the Clone wars but it was still in use during the GE meaning that is the bridge between the 2 so its entirely relavent. The Venator even with the Tech rule DOES NOT have any where NEAR the firepower of an Imp class. It has more then 400% of fighters of the Imp-classes. Its not just less ITS VASTLY LESS. Lets compare ones of my own Era shall we http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nebula-class_Star_Destroyer vs http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Endurance-class_fleet_carrier. Now the difference in fighter size is only a little over 200% here meaning the difference between the Imp Fighter size and the Venator Fighter is DOUBLE the difference of mine in a later era.

 

 

Now how much weaponry did this cost the endurance, A lot it lost well more then half of its firepower. This should be AT LEAST how much the Venator loses. In which case the Repub WOULD Have more then double the fire power of a Venator. There is no way a Venator holds 4 times the fighter base of something and retains that level of fire power. AND NO WHERE does it suggest it did. All it said was its 8 guns were equivlant to the 6 guns later. (if you are wondering about the math that would mean the later guns 1:1 are about 33% stronger just add 33% to all of its weapons and TAAAA DAAAA you have scaled it for era.)

 

Math is an important skill for all adult human beings to have. It has allowed science, innovation and construction on a scale and accuracy that just get better and better in time. Math is what helped make the computers we use now and tell you how to balance your check book so that you don't end up on the street or go to jail.

 

 

Edit: I will get to tactics when we can get these things out of the way because they are relavent to the success and failure of a tactic.

Your comparison with the Endurance seems to be lacking in accuracy. The Endurance was classed as a carrier armed only with "secondary armament" whereas the Venator is classed as a Star Destroyer and was probably one of the most powerful vessels of its time and its reactor core is far superior to that of other destroyers such as the Providence and other vessels that had inferior fighter capacity.

 

And the fact that its main guns do rival that of an ISD is extremely telling. It was a multi-role warship and its primary role was not as a carrier. Indeed as Wookieepedia states:

 

Despite possessing powerful weaponry and being on par with the Victory-class, the Venator-class was designed with an additional starfighter carrier role in mind. Its hangars were far larger than those on other Star Destroyers like the Victory-class and later models like the Imperator/Imperial-class.

 

The Victory is the same size/class as a Venator, yet despite having a much smaller fighter capacity, the Venator remains on par in terms of fire power. That doesn't not seem in anyway similar between the disparity between the Nebula (the firepower dedicated warship) and the Endurance (the carrier warship). We cannot assume they are the same. I refuse to believe it is some chump ship worth a 1/3 of its New Republic equivalent.

 

Applying numbers can only have a negative effect if you are dealing with insufficient information and assumptions. Nor is it as helpful in terms of ship-to-ship warfare as it is when managing your check books. Funnily enough.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Beniboybling

I'm not sure how relevant this is to the Venator/ISD/Victory argument, but the ISD was built during the Clone Wars.

The other thing i wanted to talk shortly about is Force Drain effect on Luke and Leia. Firstly Leia could potentially know how to defend against it. The Force power called Force Absorb during the NJO for a time was used to defend against both Lightning and Force Drains. If they dont know it my capital has an academy set at the time of the Old Sith Wars a time when the sith used such an ability and when the Jedi would have needed to know how to defend it there are likely holocrons on just that. Knowing Luke he will pack up every holocron he can get his hands on and study the hell out of them when ever he can.

 

Also they are the son and daughter of Darth Vader, if Traya knows this and since the rule was earlier that everyone remembers how they lost their first match, she may not even attempt to drain them thinking it to be potentially ineffective. Secondly on this same train of thought perception determines reality even for a Force user. The reason Palpatine was killed was because he did not think of Luke refusing to fight as even a remote possibility thus it was the one future he missed. When traya was granted her visions she was moments from her death. No one will get closer to the force being alive then right before they die and being on a Nexus at the same time pumps this even further. It was a one time moment of clarity thing and i highly doubt she could do so at any time at will.

 

Traya's perception was that Revan was this like looking into the Force and that the Ancient sith were the most powerful beings of all time. There is a good possibility when she looks at the Twins she will see one of a few things. She won't see their potential as it is something beyond her scope to imagine some one more then double the power of Vitiate, thus if she drains them she will only drain a portion of them... the portion they dont even know how to draw on any way leaving them with no effect felt (same with the assassins, and by no effect I mean it would feel funny but wouldnt change their abilities). Or she would see their potential and may find herself in AWE of this.

 

Also knowing that these are the children of the man that beat her in the last one she is much more likely to play it safe and cautious rather then overly aggressive.

 

 

Just a few thoughts on stuff that has little to do with the space or army arguements which will be concluded when other points can get settled.

this is no where near as complicated as the Anti-life equation. That would take days just to write I am not about to start writing that when simple arithmatic and pre-algebra is all thats needed right now .

Lol Wikipedia says its this:

 

loneliness + alienation + fear + despair + self-worth ÷ mockery ÷ condemnation ÷ misunderstanding × guilt × shame × failure × judgment n=y where y=hope and n=folly, love=lies, life=death, self=dark side

 

That didn't take long... what a lame equation.

I'm not sure how relevant this is to the Venator/ISD/Victory argument, but the ISD was built during the Clone Wars.

To be honest I'm trying to get a grip on just how much changed between the eras...

To be honest I'm trying to get a grip on just how much changed between the eras...

 

Would take a great deal of time to analyze them. A journey that I would love to go on, actually.

The Venators were absolutely Space Superiority ships, it could not only take on anything in it's day, but it could field hundreds of high quality fighters in seconds, humorously here are Trench's thoughts on the ship:

 

"There is little doubt that the deciding factor of this war, was the design ingenuity put into the Destroyers of the Republic Navy, to find a perfect balance between offensive firepower, defensive capacity and fighter/bomber superiority is something done only once every few centuries, the Venator-class had us by the throat the moment the war started, only super weapons could change the tide now and even then, the famous Jedi Generals foil Dooku's every step."

 

EDIT: Personally I find that the Venator is simply more effective in full-scale war than any of it's successor vessels, why? the Republic Navy built ships to win wars, the Galactic Empire built ships to intimidate and control, having a look at the Venator in The Essential Atlas, it gives the idea that whilst the Imperial-II was the most successful, it's effectiveness as a balanced Warship dropped sharply, it was a purely offensive Capital Ship, the Venator had the huge advantage of having more better quality starfighters than the much fewer, poorer quality ships that most IMP-IIs carried.

Edited February 20, 2014 by LadyKulvax

It was introduced during the Clone Wars, it was therefore a product of the technological advancements of that era. Not the era that came 25 years later. So no it is not relevant. The ISD on the other hand is and will remain to be.

 

Concerning your comparison with the Endurance, it seems to be lacking in accuracy. The Endurance was classed as a carrier armed only with "secondary armament" whereas the Venator is classed as a Star Destroyer and was probably one of the most powerful vessels of its time and its reactor core is far superior to that of other destroyers such as the Providence and other vessels that had inferior fighter capacity.

 

And the fact that its main guns do rival that of an ISD is extremely telling. It was a multi-role warship and its primary role was not as a carrier. Indeed as Wookieepedia states:

 

Despite possessing powerful weaponry and being on par with the Victory-class, the Venator-class was designed with an additional starfighter carrier role in mind. Its hangars were far larger than those on other Star Destroyers like the Victory-class and later models like the Imperator/Imperial-class.

 

The Victory is the same size/class as a Venator, yet despite having a much smaller fighter capacity, the Venator remains on par in terms of fire power. That doesn't not seem in anyway similar between the disparity between the Nebula (the firepower dedicated warship) and the Endurance (the carrier warship). We cannot assume they are the same. I refuse to believe it is some chump ship worth a 1/3 of its New Republic equivalent.

 

Applying numbers can only have a negative effect if you are dealing with insufficient information and assumptions. Nor is it as helpful in terms of ship-to-ship warfare as it is when managing your check books. Funnily enough.

 

The Victory is about 200 meters smaller then the Venator and is actually considered a slightly smaller class.

 

"so that the Endurance-class could also be seen as a Star Destroyer variant with heavy weapons replaced by extra fighters just as on the earlier Venator-class Star Destroyer."

 

 

I refuse to believe a ship of the same size of an earlier era would have been able to hold more then TRIPLE the number of fighters and still retain firepower on par with ships NOT designed to hold fighters, when the ship that its more then Triple in also was designed for fighters.

 

THIS IS ASININE and the reason I originally left this post. I know you guys love to hype the **** out of the OR and the Clone wars era but the difference in time isnt so great that a Direct comparison between the Endurance-class and the Venator-class shouldnt be made ESPECIALLY when it says the Endurance was harking BACK to the Venator, but STILL didnt get to the point of having as many fighters.

 

I dont know how to convey how retarded it is to think that a ship that holds more then 4 times the number of fighters can have even half the firepower of a ship of its same class that holds 4 times less. Why change design if it was that perfect. Why in the hell would you design an imp-class when it would have been vastly more efficient to just upgrade the hell out of the Venator. Why retire the Venator mostly and use the Victory if the Victory was inferior in every way......

 

This is why i decided not to post. this is stupid, non sensical and abandon's all logic. Either the Venator's would have to hold less fighters or have less fire power/ shielding. you cant have space for all of it and then say ship later EFED up on the design......

 

I mean the Republic hold 1/10th the fighters of the Venator and is the same size....... where did that cargo space go? This 30 years more advanced ship has just barely more firepower and 1/10th the fighter space..... talk about a giant leap backwards in tech. The farther you go into the future the *******r the tech...... Ok now I know what to pick for the next kaggath the older the better.

In regards to #510, I'm assuming Beni would take it just about as seriously as I am, so no point replying to it.

 

But in gist: Traya would know Luke and Vader are completely different.

Leia and Luke can't protect against force Drain because it's Never been shown.

And she won't be wary of them, drawing them to Malachor is her best chance.

I just noticed that Tune has a pretty ground advantage, well Troop wise. I'm sad. Edited February 20, 2014 by Wolfninjajedi

Would take a great deal of time to analyze them. A journey that I would love to go on, actually.

Yeah, you go on that journey down Obi Wan lane first.

The Venators were absolutely Space Superiority ships, it could not only take on anything in it's day, but it could field hundreds of high quality fighters in seconds, humorously here are Trench's thoughts on the ship:

 

"There is little doubt that the deciding factor of this war, was the design ingenuity put into the Destroyers of the Republic Navy, to find a perfect balance between offensive firepower, defensive capacity and fighter/bomber superiority is something done only once every few centuries, the Venator-class had us by the throat the moment the war started, only super weapons could change the tide now and even then, the famous Jedi Generals foil Dooku's every step."

 

Indeed, I'ma crack the Venator quotes out soon, Assumed I wouldn't need to but obviously do.

 

Interestingly enough, Trench's fleet over crystophsis was Unimaginably larger, Vessel wise, than Skywalkers, yet he considered his Dreadnought the only thing standing in their way.

Yeah, you go on that journey down Obi Wan lane first.

 

Writing it up as we speak.

In regards to #510, I'm assuming Beni would take it just about as seriously as I am, so no point replying to it.

 

But in gist: Traya would know Luke and Vader are completely different.

Leia and Luke can't protect against force Drain because it's Never been shown.

And she won't be wary of them, drawing them to Malachor is her best chance.

I just read it. And I have my own comments to make.

 

1. Too many assumptions being made. Though I'd be interested to here how example tutanimis can be used to deflect Force drain - as far as I'm aware that is simply not possible, so those holocrons won't be much good.

 

2. Drain their potential? What? The Force doesn't work like that. She'll drain their Force energies, plain and simple.

 

3. If you implying that Traya will just bow down to Luke and Leia or something. No. She is committed to killing them both, and I see no reason why she would not do so anyway. At the very least she may be wary of facing them.

 

4. She'd no that while Luke and Leia were the children of Vader, they never trained under him, being a Sith Lord. She'd have no reason to fear them - however there is no harm that can be done from trying.

 

Altogether I feel all of that is a little wishy washy verging in crazy. The argument I would make is that Luke and Leia simply use Force Harmony to overwhelm the weight of Malachor V as they did to overwhelm the weight of Sidious' influence and ultimately sever him from the Force - which is immensely impressive. Luke is not as powerful as he is then but I still feel Force Harmony will go along way into helping Luke and Leia defeat Traya.

 

But it would have to be Luke and Leia - which is obviously quite dangerous. And they'd have to ensure that Maul has been killed and their Sith Assassins had been destroyed or at least severely weakened to ensure success.

 

Warren's argument about IG-88 is a very good one though, he'd clean up house on Malachor.

Yeah, you go on that journey down Obi Wan lane first.

 

Why dont you just call it already, everyone has already made up their minds and no amount of debating or attempt at reasoning with any one will change it. The DI wins you and I both know it, you had the decision made when the faction list was first emailed to you. This is just a waste of time.

Why dont you just call it already, everyone has already made up their minds and no amount of debating or attempt at reasoning with any one will change it. The DI wins you and I both know it, you had the decision made when the faction list was first emailed to you. This is just a waste of time.

 

Sounds a tad odd to me. I doubt Beni's rigged things, and I certainly doubt that he would have Traya win no matter what. I mean, I haven't rigged The BattleZone for Plo Koon, have I? In fact, he may lose his next match.

Why dont you just call it already, everyone has already made up their minds and no amount of debating or attempt at reasoning with any one will change it. The DI wins you and I both know it, you had the decision made when the faction list was first emailed to you. This is just a waste of time.

 

I think you are being incredibly unfair to Beni here, he has helped you a lot more here than you realise and now you are claiming that he's already made his decision, I have not agreed with Beni's decisions sometimes, but I never lash out like this and note: I lost both of my Kaggaths when I disagreed with the results but I just let it be.

Edited February 20, 2014 by LadyKulvax

Why dont you just call it already, everyone has already made up their minds and no amount of debating or attempt at reasoning with any one will change it. The DI wins you and I both know it, you had the decision made when the faction list was first emailed to you. This is just a waste of time.

 

Stop complaining because you're facing a faction that had a lot of thought and effort put into it to make it as strong as possible.

 

And I assure you, Beni has made every attempt to Nerf me.

 

It wasnt until all of you said in the home thread that you were fine with Traya, would he even let me have her. He was trying to make me take Jadus >.>