Sorcs have maneuverability, lots of cc and range. Throw in heals and bubbles and temporary invulnerability and, really, they are fine for pvp. Dps sorcs cans do a lot of damage (while doing more healing than any non-healer). For those thinking dps heals are nearly useless in pvp I can only disagree vehemently, especially on a class with stuns mezzes, kbs and escape tools like sorcs have: good ones can be VERY hard to kill in small group fights, requiring well over 60k damage to bring down even if they don't use potions.

For raiding, none of their utilty matters at all but that's more of a testament to how generally stupid raiding is than it is a knock on sorcs.

Historically, in every rpg (both single- and multi-player), the 'mage' class (in this case Sage/Sorc) has always been the hardest to master, while the 'warrior' (Knight/Warrior) is easiest because you can just wade into combat and rely on your armour to keep you alive while you hit things. I don't think anyone has ever taken a Sage/Sorc because they expect it to be the easiest class

 

Edit: Indeed, this game actually removes the advantage that mages generally enjoy over other classes, which is their range (as I pointed out in my previous post, any class can easily strike at a Sage/Sorc without having to take the time to run up to them, all the while getting pummelled by spells)

But in this game its by far the easiest to play as it was in wow as it was in everquest

But in this game its by far the easiest to play as it was in wow as it was in everquest

Yep. There's an old stigma that comes from rpgs and the first muds where the fighter is fun for low level play and the caster is weak, but at high levels it is completely the opposite. But in this game sages get all of their main tools long before the warriors do. If you're tired of getting charged by a warrior just remember that you have at least one sprint or aoe knockback for every one of his charges; he should be able to hit you occasionally but you can easily keep him at range for most of a fight vs most specs.

Sorcs have maneuverability... For those thinking dps heals are nearly useless in pvp I can only disagree vehemently, especially on a class with stuns mezzes, kbs and escape tools like sorcs have: good ones

Sorcs have maneuverability?! You make me chuckle.

Name one class that does not have "stuns, mezzes (oh yes this is Guild Wars), and escape tools." Very few classes don't have knockbacks but trust me they have more that enough other things to make up for it, as is evident in DPS parses.

As for heals in PvP I only have one thing to say: go sit by the huttball (or hide in the darkest corner of any WZ, it makes no difference) and heal yourself to full! See how long you last.

Yep. There's an old stigma that comes from rpgs and the first muds where the fighter is fun for low level play and the caster is weak, but at high levels it is completely the opposite. But in this game sages get all of their main tools long before the warriors do. If you're tired of getting charged by a warrior just remember that you have at least one sprint or aoe knockback for every one of his charges; he should be able to hit you occasionally but you can easily keep him at range for most of a fight vs most specs.

Wow just wow... Have you ever played this game? I don't even need to say anything because everyone who has ever PvPed in this game know that what you are saying here is a load of crap. I would pay to see you play as a sorcerer vs a warrior in PvP environment and try to demonstrate your claim. It should make for a hilarious video, unless the warrior is passed out of course, but even then it would still be funny. Mind you I am not saying it can't be done, just that I would like to see you try, keeping in mind that your goal is to eventually kill said warrior not just run away from him...

Yep. There's an old stigma that comes from rpgs and the first muds where the fighter is fun for low level play and the caster is weak, but at high levels it is completely the opposite. But in this game sages get all of their main tools long before the warriors do. If you're tired of getting charged by a warrior just remember that you have at least one sprint or aoe knockback for every one of his charges; he should be able to hit you occasionally but you can easily keep him at range for most of a fight vs most specs.

Actually, I think it's more accurate to say that Warriors have a ranged attack to counter every attempt by a Sage to push them away

An example:

Warrior uses Force Charge to enter melee range.

Sage uses Force Wave to push him away.

Warrior uses Force Scream and/or his short-range saber throw (can't remember what it's called). Also, Double Saber Throw if he's a Mara.

Sage uses Force Speed to try to get away.

Warrior waits half a second until the Sage is 10 metres away, then uses Saber Throw.

Sage uses Force Stun.

The Warrior breaks out of the stun after half a second and uses Force Choke, possibly followed by Force Push if he's a Jugg.

The Warrior uses Force Charge to enter melee again, and the whole thing begins again

Sorcs have maneuverability?! You make me chuckle.

 

Name one class that does not have "stuns, mezzes (oh yes this is Guild Wars), and escape tools." Very few classes don't have knockbacks but trust me they have more that enough other things to make up for it, as is evident DPS parses.

 

As for heals in PvP I only have one thing to say: go sit by the huttball (or hide in the darkest corner of any WZ, it makes no difference) and heal yourself to full! See how long you last.

This isn't really worth responding to but... If you don't think sorc dps heals are very useful (including bubbles) then you are probably a verily bad sorc. if you sit by the huttball channelling heals while the nearby opponents aren't mezzed. or rooted or stunned you're definitely bad. Other than scamperers and sins, sorcs have the most maneuverability in most situations. Out of 8 advanced classes, I think 5 have kbs? And mercs and juggs have fewer to much fewer. Two of the classes that don't have them at all are not parsing higher than sorcs.

..., keeping in mind that your goal is to eventually kill said warrior not just run away from him...

My understanding of PVP is that the goal is to win... as a team. Which is why the games are designed around a central team based objectives (scoring touchdowns, capture/defend points). The objective is NOT to kill the other person, it is to meet the objectives of the game. If defending, point is to defend until backup arrives, or the other player gives up.

I do NOT believe that the GOAL of pvp is to KILL the other player, at that point they would just put in team death match at which point objectives is the highest k/d ratio and tanks/healers are not wanted.

.Ops were nerfed drastically and people still play them.

I lol'd.

I lol'd.

Agreed, whatever nerf they suffered in the past that time has past, they are parsing as top end DPS and they are without equal as a healer. Oh and they have more escapes then anyone else and stealth. Ops cannot claim to be underpowered sages really have little room to, but ops have absolutely no room to. The healer who has a strong case for a buff is the commando.

Agreed, whatever nerf they suffered in the past that time has past, they are parsing as top end DPS and they are without equal as a healer. Oh and they have more escapes then anyone else and stealth. Ops cannot claim to be underpowered sages really have little room to, but ops have absolutely no room to. The healer who has a strong case for a buff is the commando.

sigh. Their stuns, iirc were nerfed. Pretty fast too, if you think them chain stunning people to death now is bad, should have seen it then.

I miss the old guard, and weep for the new.

I agree with all of your points, sorcerers do indeed have incredible AoE potential, I would even go as far as saying lightning sorcerers have the best AoE potential. That being said, however, when it comes to endgame in both PvE and PvP it's all about the single target potential. In PvE that's obvious, you have to kill a boss, a single target, now there are several encounters with multiple bosses but as you know all of those have to be killed one at a time because of mechanics (mainly once you kill one the others heal to full, ohhhh see what I did there!). Same holds true for PvP. The fact is you have to kill players one at a time, focusing the right target at the right time. You are never going to get the other team to stand in your AoE for a long enough time, unless they can simply out heal it which renders the whole point of you doing it in the first place moot. So yeah its all about the single target DPS in endgame.

Are you willing to sacrifice any and all healing abilities if you spec DPS in order to see an increase in DPS? Are you willing to sacrifice the incredible AOE damage that a sorcerer can do in order to do more single target damage?

Why should Sorcs sacrifice anything - when we have operative dps dominating and we all know how hard they are to take down. How bout those Assassins and Powertechs as well - Jugg DPS is superior to these dps/tank classes as well. How bout - instead of sacrificing - we even out the playing field - and see who the better player is.

Scoundrel/Operative

1.Invinc - Operative - Lethality - 4/6/36 - 3248.72

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/353755/tim...0/Damage+Dealt

2. Dizella - Operative - Lethallity 3/7/36 - 3149

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/342539/4/0/Damage+Dealt

3. Kelaeon - Operative - Lethality - 4/6/36 - 2992.77

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/362479/tim...719/0/Overview

4. Bednica - Operative - Lethality 3/6/37 - 2968.96

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/286633/tim...987/0/Overview

5 Thorriin - Scoundrel - Dirty Fighting - 3/7/36 - 2962 dps

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/364103/tim...832/0/Overview

AMR Profile: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...1-c1e49edc09d3

Sage/Sorcerer

1. Handcuff - Sage - 3/36/7 Telekinetics - 3164.89

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/375362/tim...166/0/Overview

AMR Profile: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...c-6d1a97f52e67

2. Kindran - Sage - Balance - 5/5/36 - 3000.96

Log Link:http://www.torparse.com/a/385460/tim...0/Damage+Dealt

AMR Profile: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...d-34bb47e5abad

3. Lordbazuka - Sorcerer - Lightning - 2939

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/294514/tim...0/Damage+Dealt

4. Gardein - Sage - Telekinetics - 3/36/7 - 2888 POINT FIEF SEEX

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/395922/tim...084/0/Overview

AMR Profile: http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/characte...3-423c099af110

5. Milas - Sorcerer - Madness- 3/7/36 - 2871.94

Log Link: http://www.torparse.com/a/388008/tim...0/Damage+Dealt

Are you willing to sacrifice any and all healing abilities if you spec DPS in order to see an increase in DPS? Are you willing to sacrifice the incredible AOE damage that a sorcerer can do in order to do more single target damage?

The thing about AoE is that, in high-end group content, it's practically useless because either you're fighting very tough individual bosses, in which case AoE doesn't really help because the enemy only counts as 1 target no matter how big it is, and therefore only takes moderate damage from AoE attacks, or you're fighting groups of Elites, in which case you'll want at least some of them to be CC'ed, which means you can't use AoE because it breaks the CC.

As for your other point, Several people have already said they'd be willing to completely sacrifice healing ability if it led to an increase in damage output.

The best solution, imo, would be to give Sorc/Sages stances similar to Assassin/Shadows, so 1 stance boosts healing, but neutralises damage output somewhat, or even converts standard attacks into healing abilities; 1 stance boosts direct damage, while neutralising healing; and 1 boosts AoE, while neutralising healing and reducing direct damage. And to prevent people suddenly switching from 1 stance to another, activating a stance would fully drain your Force energy, like the Assassin/Shadow stances do. And, of course, if you like the class as it is, just leave the stances disabled and you get no bonuses or disadvantages.

Are you willing to sacrifice any and all healing abilities if you spec DPS in order to see an increase in DPS? Are you willing to sacrifice the incredible AOE damage that a sorcerer can do in order to do more single target damage?

Yes and yes because they are both irrelevant to endgame content, as I and many others have said countless times already. This is not a single player game it is an MMO please learn the difference! I say this because such a comment as you made above can only come from a single player mindset.

This isn't really worth responding to but... If you don't think sorc dps heals are very useful (including bubbles) then you are probably a verily bad sorc. if you sit by the huttball channelling heals while the nearby opponents aren't mezzed. or rooted or stunned you're definitely bad. Other than scamperers and sins, sorcs have the most maneuverability in most situations. Out of 8 advanced classes, I think 5 have kbs? And mercs and juggs have fewer to much fewer. Two of the classes that don't have them at all are not parsing higher than sorcs.

/facepalm... You are correct about only one thing in that mess, and that is that it really wasn't worth responding because, as you proved, nothing you can say can possible disprove my point. My comment about sitting and healing to full was a joke! Sorcs are a turret spec aka they have NO mobility as they cannot deal dmg on the move period, with the exception of death field (but madness sucks so bad no one specs for it) and instant chain lighting which can only proc from casting while standing STILL. Shock does such a negligible amount of dmg it's not worth mentioning! Mercs have the exact same knockback as sorcerers and juggs have a single target knockback that throws the target much much further and can potentially one shot an enemy if used correctly!

As for your last sentence... ARE YOU F-ING SERIOUS?!!! The two classes that don't have knockbacks are marauders and operative both of which parse HUNDREDS more than sorcs!

Yes and yes because they are both irrelevant to endgame content, as I and many others have said countless times already. This is not a single player game it is an MMO please learn the difference! I say this because such a comment as you made above can only come from a single player mindset.

I'm not the one asking for a healing class to do top notch damage.

I KNOW the difference between MMO and single player. I know that if I'm going to play a healing class, even spec'd as DPS, that my DPS is not going to top the charts. I know that there are other players who have different strengths than I have, and I might have strengths that they do not have. I know there are other classes which are better at some things than the class I chose, while my chosen class may be better at other things. I am not looking for a class that does it all. I'm not saying that you are, but there are some in the is very thread who want it all. They want to top the DPS parses AND still be able to not only heal, but heal effectively.

Majority lf sorcs dont know how to play their class if they did you wouldnt sit there and cast till you were face tanking you would dot and aoe for proc and use instannts and always stay in the back. If the llaystile doesnt dit play another class. I dont expect to face tank with my mara

....what?

Can someone translate this for me please?

I'm not the one asking for a healing class to do top notch damage.

 

I KNOW the difference between MMO and single player. I know that if I'm going to play a healing class, even spec'd as DPS, that my DPS is not going to top the charts. I know that there are other players who have different strengths than I have, and I might have strengths that they do not have. I know there are other classes which are better at some things than the class I chose, while my chosen class may be better at other things. I am not looking for a class that does it all. I'm not saying that you are, but there are some in the is very thread who want it all. They want to top the DPS parses AND still be able to not only heal, but heal effectively.

Well I can't speak to what others want, but I think you are confusing the fact that they want to be able to both deal DPS on par with other classes and have defensive cooldowns/capabilities of par with other classes, which I don't think is unreasonable. I don't think anyone is arguing against the fact that different classes should have different strengths and weakness, but don't confuse that with the need for essential skills required for maintaining class balance (which some classes are currently missing). Now, no one is saying that those skills have to be the same or even act in a simular manner but in the end of the day in order for class balance to exist they do have to offer the same degree of defensive capabilities. Same goes for offense but in a broader sense.

....what?

 

Can someone translate this for me please?

Well I guess I can try, I've been trying for nearly 200 posts... Uhhh... Something about face tanking? Umm... Yeah sorry I got nothing. Don't worry you get used to him, it's like an annoying squirrel that keeps stealing the birdfeed from the bird house...

Absolutely.

 

The reality is that Dark Heal is an immensely Force Inefficient Heal and that the cast time on Dark Infusion combined with the likelihood of push-back makes it nigh-useless tactically.

This is an important issue, I believe.

Dark Heal drains your Force like noone's business for quick, but ultimately pathetic heals. Just not enough bang for the buck. I'd understand the stupid Force cost, were it instant, but in its present state, I use it either by mistake, or in a quick combo with Unnatural Preservation.

Infusion healing is quite underwhelming for a 3-sec cast, which makes it pretty unusable outside safe, or relatively safe conditions.

Well I can't speak to what others want, but I think you are confusing the fact that they want to be able to both deal DPS on par with other classes and have defensive cooldowns/capabilities of par with other classes, which I don't think is unreasonable. I don't think anyone is arguing against the fact that different classes should have different strengths and weakness, but don't confuse that with the need for essential skills required for maintaining class balance (which some classes are currently missing). Now, no one is saying that those skills have to be the same or even act in a simular manner but in the end of the day in order for class balance to exist they do have to offer the same degree of defensive capabilities. Same goes for offense but in a broader sense.

Then what they are asking for is not balanced.. Any class with any healing abilities should not top the charts in DPS.. I would love the sage bubble on my Sentinel.. Heck some of their standard heals would be nice as well.. The comment that the heals are worthless, is actually meaningless.. They are still heals and pure DPS classes do not have them..

Pure DPS classes should top the charts.. Period.. There should be no argument otherwise.. Their entire purpose in any situation is to inflict damage on the enemy.. 100% damage.. Nothing else.. No spot heals, and no spot tanking because a tank is in a mind trap..

A DPS sage is probably 85-90% damage and 10-15% heals..

I play both a sage and a Sentinel.. I also have a gunslinger and a Scoundrel.. I also have a shadow and a commando.. I can talk about this issue from all sides of the spectrum..

Hybrid classes should not be as good at DPS as classes that are specialized at DPS.. Notice I am using the word class and not spec..

I am not sure who it was, but someone was implying that a tank should not do any DPS.. The DPS a tank does generates threat.. It is how we maintain agro on the boss or mob.. We can't rely on our taunts, they only last typically for 6 seconds, and at the very least have about a 20 second cool down.. So DPS is how we maintain threat.. No.. I am not saying that tanks should do a lot of DPS.. Most of our damage abilities generate high amounts of threat to help out.. But we still have to do some DPS.. Our TPS or Threat per second is partially determined by how much DPS we can do.. That said, tanks should still worry more about mitigation instead of damage..

Pure DPS classes should be tops when it comes to DPS.. There should be no debate on that..

Hybrid classes that are spec'd DPS should do good DPS, but not as much as a pure DPS class.. Hybrid class have other tools to make up for their short commings on DPS.. Stealth comes to mind, which really helps placing crowed controls.. Having classes that can throw spot heals in tight situations can really help.. You hope that you never need to, but the situations sometimes do come up when you need them..

AOE?? I can't believe I actually say someone say that AOE was useless.. That it was all about single target DPS.. If I had a nickel for every time I used freighter fly by on a boss.. Or incendiary grenade for that matter.. Both AOE and both do tons of damage.. Not all boss fights with multiple bosses allow you to kill them one at a time... Someone needs to stop doing Flashpoints and then talking about Ops.. Zorn and Toth in EC need to be killed with in seconds of eachother.. Or the other enrages.. The tank fight, again in EC needs to be killed with seconds of each other.. Jarg and Sorno of KP need to be killed with in seconds.. Jarg and Sorno is a great example of a boss fight where AOE could be very usefull.. Still AOE is not useless in a single boss fight either.. They still do damage.. Not to mention, some of the trash pulls in an OP can be pretty challenging..

To answer the OP's question.. It is called balance.. Characters sacrifice some damage production to either tank or heal.. If a healing or tanking class did as much damage as a pure DPS class, then there is no reason to ever roll a pure DPS class.. People need to look at it from that perspective.. The ability to tank and heal costs you some DPS.. It doesn't matter how useless you feel the tanking or healing skills are.. The fact that you have them is why your DPS is a tad lower than that of a pure DPS class..

There really is nothing to say here.. It is called character balance.. A class that can do it all as good as everyone else is not balanced..

If you want to heal then spec for it i dont expect my dps sin to be able to tank why are you special

I am not sure what you are trying to say here??

Hybrid classes can to a small extent both tank or heal while they are DPS'ing.. Even though a shadow maybe spec'd DPS, they still have a taunt.. Trooper tanks do as well... All sages have heals, even if they are not spec'd for them.. Scoundrels are no different.. They also have heals spec'd into any tree..

Which is why hybrid classes do a little bit less DPS..