Thoughts?

IA: Operative (dsp) and Smuggler: Scoundrel are dead classes.

 

Groups and Raids don't want them, and they don't have the mechanics to be viable in PvP.

The nerf took away their burst, which may have been needed, but there are no other abiities of this class (other than their nerfed burst) that makes them viable in PvP.

 

thoughts for ressurecting this dead class for dps?

Edited March 7, 2012 by Cruces

Thoughts?

IA: Operative (dsp) and Smuggler: Scoundrel are dead classes.

 

Groups and Raids don't want them, and they don't have the mechanics to be viable in PvP.

The nerf took away their burst, which may have been needed, but there are no other abiities of this class (other than their nerfed burst) that makes them viable in PvP.

 

thoughts for ressurecting this dead class for dps?

 

Not only the damage, but also reduced the stun by 50% off of one of operative's main abilities and stealth opener (Hidden Strike) and reduced Acid Blade's Armor Penetration Buff from 50% to 30%.

To be honest, their healing might be even more dead. The only reason they get any play as healers is because healing is a valuable role. The 2-3 Scoundrels still left on my server have all respecced healing and run exclusively in premades, but even they know they can't be trusted to be the sole healer in PvP which is why they always bring a Sage with them. They might be even worse at healing compared to a Sorc/Sage than they are at DPS compared to, say, an Assassin. I think at this point everyone is just waiting for something to be done with the class to make it viable. In the meantime they'll play their new characters. Edited March 7, 2012 by CaptainInsano

atm it is widely accepted that scoundrels/operatives are the worse AC of the game by miles.

 

they need some utility to counterbalance all their faults:

 

concealment: good dps (not the best, but passable) but no way to stay/go on target in pve and to add to that they offer nothing to the operation

lethality: there isn't anything in the tree to justify it being a pve dps tree, not enough damage, offers nothing, slow start up and etc

medic:...worst healing class for pve by miles, offers nothing more for much more effort.

 

what i would like to see is not just number tweaks, but actual helpful changes:

 

concealment: give them some way to either go to target instantly (charge and etc) or to not be so eaily pushed away (kb/root/snare immunity either on cd or after leaving stealth or something). they also need a quicker way to go into stealth in prolongued fights or else their dps suffers alot

 

lethality: they really need to be a 10m class, not mellee, yet the fact that they need to do a melle attack every 6secs or else they cant use their main 10m range attack is plain oversight. They also need to bring something to the operation. p.e. a 5%more damage received (for everyone) debuff added to weaking blast would be good

 

medicine: this tree seriously needs some help. atm the 2 main problems are that 3/6healing spells are sseriously underperforming, so we are left with only half the toold we were given, and those tools were the least of any healing class, and the fact they have 0 healings cds and 0 utility spells. either add utility, or add superior burst healing compared to the other 2 healers. i was thinking, that since healing wise this tree is underperforming to say the least, they could just give it utility in the form of making it more offense oriented, like giving it moves to dps without sacrificing healing: p.e. a talent that gives a debuff to corrosive dart that says something along the lines" whoever hits the target with melee attacks get healed by X" or a talent like "critical hits with backstab make your next direct cast heal a critical" or something along those lines.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Shroudveil

Both the dps IA:Operative and Smuggler:Scoundel are dead classes atm.

Nothing they bring to the table another class can't do much better.

 

I guess we find out if Bioware knows how to manage a MMO come 1.2.

 

(although, 1.2 should have been in place for release)

The problem is the class is very one dimensional: Burst DPS. They took the burst out of it, and they were never able to sustain DPS in the first place. Now the scoundrel is a class that people only play because they don't feel like rolling up a new character. A lot of them have already dropped their subscriptions.

atm it is widely accepted that scoundrels/operatives are the worse AC of the game by miles.

 

 

Sniper says hello.

Sniper says hello.

 

In PvP, that's arguable (even if both class are still playable and enjoyable). But in PvE, snipers are crazy good.

I'm hoping for some major overhauls to the class.

 

It's obvious that the preliminary design of the class was to be the biggest burst oriented class - which was thrown out the window due to player complaints (and the fact that, at least at the time with the buff stacking and higher surge, it was indeed imbalanced).

 

As a champion geared scoundrel, the burst is still good, but not good enough to warrant being so situational - I am only good in a fight when i open on someone from stealth - but not good enough to make it so i'm only allowed to do it so few times a match.

 

Other than this burst, which isn't even the best in the game right now (Pyrotech Powertechs got that at the moment) - and is pretty much the same as most of the other DPS classes can put out constantly - we pretty much have nothing.

 

Stunlock? Powertechs can do a 4 sec stun (ranged) plus 3 more seconds of carbonize. jugs can do 3 (4 with pvp gear) of force choke + 2-3 seconds of knockdown from push etc etc...

 

Honestly, in my opinion, either the damage of flechette round needs to be significantly improved (perhaps allow it to stack) - so our sustained damage is better - or we should get a shadowstep ability that also lets us use a 20% reduced damage shootfirst (can share a CD with stealth to deny us the ability to chain two shootfirsts\hidden strikes) - that would also allow me to use my vanish as a purely defensive ability.

 

Here's to hoping fixes come next patch. If they don't, i got 2 options, reroll or quit, since i work full time, rerolling is a problem for me - it will take me months to get to 50 and gear up again - so i won't have much choice

atm i think most operatives have already rerolled to either sorc or merc. the differance is just too huge to ignore.

 

 

they had their chance in 1.12, in 1.1.3, in 1.1.4, in 1.1.5 yet not only they chose to not do anything but nerf the weakest class in pve atm but they also pushed back whatever changes they have planned for ~2months.

 

IF they really care they should just push operative changes first and then the rest of the 1.2, but alas they wont, not for the lowest by far (and rapidly declining due to no attention at all) class of the game. they are a company and they do what they do for profit. atm profit= sage/sorc and knight/warrior. hence why they dont nerf sorc and why the referance to "knights/warriors get new abilities" in the summit.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Shroudveil

Thoughts?

IA: Operative (dsp) and Smuggler: Scoundrel are dead classes.

 

Groups and Raids don't want them, and they don't have the mechanics to be viable in PvP.

The nerf took away their burst, which may have been needed, but there are no other abiities of this class (other than their nerfed burst) that makes them viable in PvP.

 

thoughts for ressurecting this dead class for dps?

 

Hmm so my Operative healer friend helped with us on our Operation last night before helping another group at Karagga's Palace. Oh ya nobody wants him in their group.....

 

I will say this, yes you guys need adjustments, he works his *** off to get top healer in WZs where a Sorc or BH doesn't have as much trouble. Problem stems from our resource pool, Sorcs don't run out, but Operatives always do unless you really manage it.

 

Why didn't you mention Snipers? Aren't we the worst class in this game? That's another LOL, I'm a hybrid spec and I get in the top 5 for DPS all the time. I do have to work my *** off as well, and our defensive bubble lasts 4 seconds and it's useless against force classes (which make up the majority of WZs).

 

Btw I've had my *** kicked by Ops/Scoundrels in PvP, so if you know what you're doing, they can still be a force. They just aren't Sorc/Sage retard mode.

 

For the record, there are less Snipers/Gunslingers then there are Operatives/Scoundrels.

 

Know the facts before you QQ. Have a nice day.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Mailek

Hmm so my Operative healer friend helped with us on our Operation last night before helping another group at Karagga's Palace. Oh ya nobody wants him in their group.....

 

I will say this, yes you guys need adjustments, he works his *** off to get top healer in WZs where a Sorc or BH doesn't have as much trouble. Problem stems from our resource pool, Sorcs don't run out, but Operatives always do unless you really manage it.

 

Why didn't you mention Snipers? Aren't we the worst class in this game? That's another LOL, I'm a hybrid spec and I get in the top 5 for DPS all the time. I do have to work my *** off as well, and our defensive bubble lasts 4 seconds and it's useless against force classes (which make up the majority of WZs).

 

Btw I've had my *** kicked by Ops/Scoundrels in PvP, so if you know what you're doing, they can still be a force. They just aren't Sorc/Sage retard mode.

 

For the record, there are less Snipers/Gunslingers then there are Operatives/Scoundrels.

 

Know the facts before you QQ. Have a nice day.

 

 

Snipes/Gunslingers have some crazy DPS, and are in fact one of the few ranged DPS which is highly valuable in Operations. Snipers have some issues dealing with melee that are already in melee range, but that's part of the balance. They could possibly use some more tools to let them DPS on the run.

 

Scoundrel/Operative healing is...okay. DPS is...meh. They can still kill people in PVP, but it's a lot harder than other classes. Scoundrels also don't have any "finishing" moves that other classes get. An opponent gets down to 20-30%, and we're still doing the same DPS as before.

I doubt that I will get any boost to Operative before my subscription time will end, so I don't really care :-) But who cares abut that either? :-D

On the topic of Sniper/slinger. It was confirmed by the Devs that they, along with the marauder, are the top DPS in the game.

 

I still play my operative, and yes, It takes me a LOT of gear, and a lot of luck to even do well in both pvp AND pve, where as it takes a sorc, or a merc, no effort at all. It's doable, but it's honestly like hitting things with a wet spoon hoping for that crit/surge/power to kick in.

 

I would love to see some sort of closing mechanism, and an increase in our sustained dps. I'm getting sick and tired in huttball being knocked off the platform by everyone in their mother having a knockback or a closing mechanism only to have to hit cloaking screen/evasion (only to be knocked out because everyone in their mother has an aoe and can see our stealth from 30m away it seems)

 

We are the bottom tier in terms of dps, yet we aren't aknowledged at all.. I mean, take a look at the graph they showed at the guild summit.. Smugglers and agent's are the least played class, not because we aren't Iconic, but because NO ONE WANTS US IN THEIR GROUP! Our only benefit is our battle rez and our group buff, and come legacy, who would want us in our current state when one person can spam all 4 buffs at once.

My Operative is shelved for the time being because it has nowhere to go. Yeah, I have raided, yes, I have PVP'd but the class just FEELS awful. The argument that you can make OPs work if you are a top notch player is completely off.... its like saying a top racecar driver would make a Pinto win. Painters use brushes, surgeons use scalpels... using rocks wouldn't prove their skill, it would call it into question.

 

I rerolled Assassin ans I love it. I actually want to log in and play now. My win rate has gone from 90% to 99% and I have more fun in Operations. I have tried every class but the Sniper and they are all fun, except for the Operative.

I'm all for adjustments being made to Operatives, I really want to see them competitively healing and dps with the rest of the classes, and some quality of life//better utility given. However, I actually *like* my class overall. It kind of disturbs me to see people calling out for a complete redesign...

There's rarely a class that everyone is going to love to play. If you really hate everything about it, it's just not your class. I.E. Merc dps feels pretty awful to me, but I do like the healing.

I am apparently in the minority and absolutely love my Scoundrel for PVP. And while I wouldn't argue with an "execute" type ability, I'd much prefer a buff to our in-combat mobility, having to vanish to get a speed boost hurts. In regards to damage, I have no issues bursting through healers and breaking 300k damage dealt in a decent length warzone; breaking 5k with Shoot First is possible but uncommon with Inspiration+Expertise Adrenal. I rarely top the damage on the charts due to our lack of effective AE damage, but my single-target burst feels unrivaled, and only Sentinels/Maurauders seem more capable at locking down a caster.

For a bit of context: I am specced: 3/31/7 Until yesterday I was without a single BM item and I hit level 50 after the nerf.

 

I am, however, oblivious to our viability in Operations, but I fair well enough in the HM Flashpoints I've done.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Jeralin

For the record, there are less Snipers/Gunslingers then there are Operatives/Scoundrels.

 

Know the facts before you QQ. Have a nice day.

 

Ehmm official statistics released on the summit by Bioware say that smugglers are the least played but of smugglers 1/3 are scoundrels and 2/3 are snipers. You can find this official data on several locations, but a good overview you can find here : http://feature.mmosite.com/swtor/upcoming_1.2_update_in_swtor_and_beyond.shtml#ue_pic

 

Anyway, just shows that smugglers in general aren't popular for I am guessing several reasons...

Ehmm official statistics released on the summit by Bioware say that smugglers are the least played but of smugglers 1/3 are scoundrels and 2/3 are snipers. You can find this official data on several locations, but a good overview you can find here : http://feature.mmosite.com/swtor/upcoming_1.2_update_in_swtor_and_beyond.shtml#ue_pic

 

Anyway, just shows that smugglers in general aren't popular for I am guessing several reasons...

 

Its star wars and if you look at the most popular characters in the lore Darth Maul and the rest of the light saber wielding classes are the most popular. It just goes to show it follows suit here. What star wars game that are successful that peeps don't play a light saber using bad ***. How many han solo games have peeps made lol.

Edited March 9, 2012 by LordbishopX

On the topic of Sniper/slinger. It was confirmed by the Devs that they, along with the marauder, are the top DPS in the game.

 

Dev posts are rarely grounded in reality.

 

Now let's suppoose its a PvE boss, in which there are no mechanics that require movement for many of our specs. .....Maybe. But I'm still not seeing it. Up there? Sure. Best? No. Let's say its dirty fighting with all the mobility too? Still up there, but no.

 

The usual litmus test that's brought up is the Infernal Council on Nightmare. Now again, this is all personal observations, but I've never seen a Gunslinger finish an Infernal Marauder first. In fact they usually are near last of the DPS if they're all in equivalent gear. The reason why they might shine though are the encounters which don't require much movement and are melee unfriendly. On those? Sure, they might just beat out the odd Mercenary/Commando, but I rather doubt that.

 

In PvP there are rare occasions in which I've seen a gunslinger break 400k damage on games where they have 0 deaths(lol). But I've yet to see the 500, 600, 700k DPS that Sorcerors/Sages, Powertechs/Vanguards....et al. Can put out under similar circumstances.

 

Most would cite survivability in the latter, and indeed, survivability is our primary problem, but I qualified it by saying it was the rare 0 death, 100% uptime on DPS warzone, which does happen on occasion.

 

I'm not saying that the warzone boards are the best litmus test, given how DPS actually works, but its still a good qualifier. I'd like to challenge any of you to bring me a screenshot of a Gunslinger exceeding 500k, then ask that same Gunslinger how often it occurs.

 

Again, this is all pure observation without any objective data outside of combat logs, but I really doubt every Gunslinger I've interacted with, including myself, is just that bad. I don't see us as being 5% higher in DPS than every other DPS class, but I do see us within the top 3-4 DPS consistently.

Dev posts are rarely grounded in reality.

 

Now let's suppoose its a PvE boss, in which there are no mechanics that require movement for many of our specs. .....Maybe. But I'm still not seeing it. Up there? Sure. Best? No. Let's say its dirty fighting with all the mobility too? Still up there, but no.

 

The usual litmus test that's brought up is the Infernal Council on Nightmare. Now again, this is all personal observations, but I've never seen a Gunslinger finish an Infernal Marauder first. In fact they usually are near last of the DPS if they're all in equivalent gear. The reason why they might shine though are the encounters which don't require much movement and are melee unfriendly. On those? Sure, they might just beat out the odd Mercenary/Commando, but I rather doubt that.

 

In PvP there are rare occasions in which I've seen a gunslinger break 400k damage on games where they have 0 deaths(lol). But I've yet to see the 500, 600, 700k DPS that Sorcerors/Sages, Powertechs/Vanguards....et al. Can put out under similar circumstances.

 

Most would cite survivability in the latter, and indeed, survivability is our primary problem, but I qualified it by saying it was the rare 0 death, 100% uptime on DPS warzone, which does happen on occasion.

 

I'm not saying that the warzone boards are the best litmus test, given how DPS actually works, but its still a good qualifier. I'd like to challenge any of you to bring me a screenshot of a Gunslinger exceeding 500k, then ask that same Gunslinger how often it occurs.

 

Again, this is all pure observation without any objective data outside of combat logs, but I really doubt every Gunslinger I've interacted with, including myself, is just that bad. I don't see us as being 5% higher in DPS than every other DPS class, but I do see us within the top 3-4 DPS consistently.

 

pvp is an awful way to compare damages.

 

for starters most snipers are either markmanship or lethality, which are single target dps mainly, while most pts sorcs make use of plenty of aoe. so damage is ofc higher cuase of that.

 

secondly dps uptime is the main reason scoundrels/ops are behind the rest of the dps classes.

 

all the rest melee classes? no problem, they have charge, or sprint, or knockback immunity

ranged classes? lets no go over how ranged friendly are almost all the current bosses with the amount of target switching, movement, knockbacks and etc that there are apparently on all bosses.

 

dummy dps? who cares, dummy dps is purely theoritical and never applies in real situations.

I hit 200k as a level 11 smuggler grenade ftw. Damage in wz is purely how much AOE can you do and dots can you spread before you die. Then screen capture and brag on forums look at me....

I hit 200k as a level 11 smuggler grenade ftw. Damage in wz is purely how much AOE can you do and dots can you spread before you die. Then screen capture and brag on forums look at me....

 

Quoted for truth.

Its star wars and if you look at the most popular characters in the lore Darth Maul and the rest of the light saber wielding classes are the most popular. It just goes to show it follows suit here. What star wars game that are successful that peeps don't play a light saber using bad ***. How many han solo games have peeps made lol.

Okay and what about Warhammer Online, Bright Wizards were the most popular class, there is no Warhammer film and not many people play the tabletop. Let's not forget that Bright Wizards didn't even look that great (red haired guys in dresses) it is exactly the same situation with Sages and Sorcerors people levitate to the best class and that's why they are overplayed not because the stupid reason Bioware gave that it's who they associate with most in the films.

Edited March 9, 2012 by Manigma

Okay and what about Warhammer Online, Bright Wizards were the most popular class, there is no Warhammer film and not many people play the tabletop. Let's not forget that Bright Wizards didn't even look that great (red haired guys in dresses) it is exactly the same situation with Sages and Sorcerors people levitate to the best class and that's why they are overplayed not because the stupid reason Bioware gave that it's who they associate with most in the films.

 

Nope not really even close to decent comparison peeps grew up on star wars and jedi's not warhammers a game I have never even thought of playing. Some players that can't handle learning how to play the class rage quit while others L2P it quite well. I see many top charts damage and killls and very very few deaths. When I see them I attempt to avoid being alone cause I know they will get me out of no where lol. Also 2 together can be tag team from hell...

 

Smuggers and IA have the best stories in my book that's why I play them to fight back. The issue is the class takes more than button spamming and sitting in cover and really just has some bad bad players that play it and QQ none stop it seems...

 

Sorc are really easy to take down OP nope big damage yeah easy dot dot dot aoe look at my damage and when I pop on them they die quickly not tough at all.

Edited March 9, 2012 by LordbishopX