Right now I'm leveling up my Gunslinger and thinking ahead into what spec I want to stick with. I've been leveling as a Sab for now, but I'm looking for opinions between these two specs:

 

Sab (7/31/3): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700rzMZrI0bRRbRrsZh.2

Sab/DF Hybrid (2/16/23): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700bZrI0bRoZhrbkrbhd.2

 

Obviously there is more survivability in the full Sab tree and I believe there is more damage output in the hybrid. Within the Hybrid I've heard Fighting Spirit or Hold Your Ground is a better choice than Feeling Woozy, would like to hear opinions on the best choice in tier4 talents.

Nothing?

Firstly, to answer your question about DF tier 4 talents, Fighting Spirit is a must have. DF is an extremely energy intensive tree, with the up front cost of applying DoTs as well as 25 energy Wounding Shots every 9 seconds. Without Fighting Spirit and with no Hemo Blast to provide energy-free GCDs, it is nearly impossible to do decent damage while staying in the >60% high regen bracket.

 

Onto the main question of the thread. The problem with DF builds in general is that the tree was designed completely in opposition to the main objective of PvP gameplay - focus fire and burst damage. DF thrives when your fights last longer than 21 seconds. If your team is bursting and focus firing correctly, targets should be dropping in less than half that time frame. In a normal fight, a 31-point DF player might have time, after applying DoTs and Flourish Shot, for one cast of Wounding Shots. What you're proposing with your hybrid build is adding another DoT to the opening rotation. Again, if your teammates are doing their jobs, that's just 20 energy you're wasting on maybe 25% of the tooltip damage of Shock Charge, and a valuable GCD that you should have used for burst damage abilities.

 

Sorry to **** on your hybrid build. I believe it (or some minor variation) is currently the highest theoretical sustained damage build available for gunslingers. It just has no place whatsoever in PvP.

Edited November 2, 2012 by navierstalks

Right now I'm leveling up my Gunslinger and thinking ahead into what spec I want to stick with. I've been leveling as a Sab for now, but I'm looking for opinions between these two specs:

 

Sab (7/31/3): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700rzMZrI0bRRbRrsZh.2

Sab/DF Hybrid (2/16/23): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700bZrI0bRoZhrbkrbhd.2

 

Obviously there is more survivability in the full Sab tree and I believe there is more damage output in the hybrid. Within the Hybrid I've heard Fighting Spirit or Hold Your Ground is a better choice than Feeling Woozy, would like to hear opinions on the best choice in tier4 talents.

 

For better or worse, the optimal role of the gunslinger in pvp is single-target burst damage. Killing healers fast is our job. We are one-dimensional, but we excel in that one dimension. That means for pvp, sharpshooter is most common.

 

If you find yourself partnering, for some odd reason, with another gunslinger who is sharpshooter specced, I could see the advantage of having a sab spec in pvp. They are rare, but they are out there.

 

At the end of the day, play whatever you find fun. But I doubt you will have much fun trying to dirty fight in pvp.

Right now I'm leveling up my Gunslinger and thinking ahead into what spec I want to stick with. I've been leveling as a Sab for now, but I'm looking for opinions between these two specs:

 

Sab (7/31/3): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700rzMZrI0bRRbRrsZh.2

Sab/DF Hybrid (2/16/23): http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700bZrI0bRoZhrbkrbhd.2

 

Obviously there is more survivability in the full Sab tree and I believe there is more damage output in the hybrid. Within the Hybrid I've heard Fighting Spirit or Hold Your Ground is a better choice than Feeling Woozy, would like to hear opinions on the best choice in tier4 talents.

 

Just hit 50 a week ago on my GS and I like going for off specs. I always wanted to try DF but I saw the potential (the same as you have) for a hybrid of DF/sab. I tried Sab first, then full DF and now that my gear is better I am DF/Sab, though not 2/16/23, I went 0/18/23. I took fighting spirit instead of feeling woozy and reopen wounds (cos crits are fun), depending on how much utility you want you could drop reopen wounds to get feeling woozy. It is really useful.

 

When all is said and done hybrid is very energy intensive, so you need to be getting energy back from your dot crits (of which shock charge counts), by the same token wounding shots hits harder if you have all 3 dots on the target. I found as hybrid i was an expert at taking down hard to kill targets (ball carriers, healers etc) because your damage is inevitable and your burst with the buffed sabotage charge is massive (but on a long cool down). Wounding shots provides the 'killing blow' that sabotage is missing, but you will run out of energy a lot and and your dots take along time to get full value for spend, so you need to learn when to dot and when to just flourish, sabotage and speed shots for a quick kill instead. I found it's almost better as hyrbid to die quite often rather than be healed up, cos it solves your energy management issues. I've also seen a hybrid that takes Sabotage instead of wounding shots to manage its energy issues, but I think it lacks sustained burst the same way that full Sabo spec does.

 

It also doesn't work very well when you have poor gear, because there is a wind up for your damage when a Marauder/Jug is in your face 3 GCDs establishing dots and then another for flourishing shots is a long time. You need to be tough to survive the first 5-10 secs against the OP melee, so you need gear that will support that. But you get the hang on snaring them and LOS' and you start getting more warhero gear you will melt faces.

 

Until my gear got better I played full Sabotage spec at 50. I was hard to kill, I was a nuisance on defense (and offence) and I pumped out quite large damage numbers due to AOE, despite have terribad recruit gear. I can also earn 2.5k heal medic medal and 50k healing medal (hah). If you're clever you can make short work of melee who are better geared than you (cast incen grenade and flyover on yourself while hunkered down and stun/snare them in the area, then open up with sabotage charge and speed shots, even if you die, they die too!).

 

The problem for Sab spec is for your damage to overwhelm a healer they have to stand in the fire. I basically couldn't kill a healer even if I was left alone to do full rotations on it. I was able to harass them by disrupting them and forcing them to heal themselves quite intently or move around a lot to avoid the fire etc. But especially a well geared merc, I was lucky if I could get them down to 40% health before they would pop back up, that said I was in poorer gear than I am now.

 

Hope that helps. I don't really want to be sharpshooter, but I may have to spec that way till I get some stronger gear as the problem with the hybrid spec and full DF is you are much softer than Sab or SS spec (you have no ballistic dampeners and don't spend as much time in cover).

I've read about a significant number of people who use a DF/Sab hybrid only for PvP, and claim it's useless in PvE. I personally found it to be a fun spec in PvP when you just want to mess around in random queues, but it's less useful at objectives and (I assume) in ranked. I don't really queue that often, however, so take my opinion for what it's worth. Like previously said, the energy issues with this spec are just horrible, which is why in premades where you're focusing it's pretty trashy.

 

When I want to play seriously or play hard objectives/healer killer, I'll spec SS. I haven't played Sab, but I've seen great results from others who do.

Edited November 3, 2012 by Synavix

I've played pure SS and Sab extensively in PVP. Last week I tried out the hybrid and while the aoe and dots are nice the energy management is much more difficult and to do a full burst rotation on a single target will take almost all of your energy. I still like the spec but I don't really see why anyone would run it over pure DF, SS or Sab besides for fun. IMO the biggest drawback of the spec is that you can't get any of the good defensive talents in SS or Sab which makes you extremely squishy.

Just my 2¢... I have played a Sabo-spec almost since launch, and have a blast playing it. MM is too turret-like, and I found DF a bit boring. Being an objective-oriented player, Sabo suited my play style just fine. Granted, I don't burn down healers, but I make them run like hell. If they're running, they're not healing. I'm almost always in the top 2-3 in damage/kills/medals, and almost always wind up with at least 1 mvp vote (for what that's worth), win or lose.

 

Respecs are free now, so give Sabo a shot.. it'll be fun!

My simplistic opinions.

Dirty fighting - You'll hurt your enemies.

Sab - You'll stop our enemies.

SS - You'll kill your enemy.

Sab-DF hybrid - You'll really gonna hurt the enemy.

I've been switching back and forth between full DF and the hybrid sab/DF in the past couple weeks since hitting 50. I am mostly in augmented Battlemaster gear with a few WH pieces but here's the observations of a fairly inexperienced Gunslinger, assuming the two standard builds:

 

Hybrid - http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700bZrI0bRoZGbbkrMhd.2

Pros:

- Highest possible burst

- More powerful AoEs

- Shorter cooldown on Thermal and Flash Grenades

 

Cons:

- Poor energy management - if your DoTs are not reapplying themselves after falling off they do not have additional crit chances for the extended 9 seconds

- Poor survivability due to missing Ballistic Dampers

- Lower accuracy due to missing Sharpshooter talent. I dropped below 105% accuracy without this and as a result was missing a noticeably larger amount, but perhaps you could itemize to correct this.

- Extremely slow setup (5 GCDs) for the aforementioned highest possible burst, almost to the point of impracticality - your sequence is Flourish Shot, Shrap Bomb, Vital Shot, Shock Charge, Sabotage Charge, Wounding Shots, Speed Shot. At any high level of play burst needs to happen much faster than this. However depending on situation you may be able to skip Shock Charge.

- Can not reveal stealthers due to DoTs not reapplying

- No talent points available for a snare on either Shock Charge or Shrap Bomb

- Harder to kill targets in execute range

 

Full DF - http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#700bcMZ0cZGbbkrrhdhR.2

Pros:

- Ballistic Dampers - incredible survivability tool, amplified by the mobility of this spec. If you are going in and out of cover every 6 seconds you can keep this up nearly all the time. With the hybrid spec I found I was dying to Rage Smashes all the time. Also very nice defense against stealthers, they tend to have very powerful openers and you are reducing them by 30%

- Incredible energy generation due to DoTs reapplying after falling off. Sometimes I mass apply Vital Shot to several players just for the future energy gain

- Hemorraging blast costs no energy and is almost as good as the hybrid's Sabotage Charge with Contingency Charges

- Reapplying DoTs pull stealthers out of stealth, yes even Shadows using Resilience or Scoundrels with Lucky Dodge.

- DoTs do more damage in execute range, I found they were often killing people even after I died.

 

Cons:

- Longer cooldown on Thermal and Flash Grenades

- Weaker AoE

- Sabotage Charge is almost not worth using

- The re-application of DoTs seems to put you back in combat no matter where you are on the map, even if you are respawning after death. This was incredibly annoying for me as I would be walking back to the objective without sprint and would have to wait obscene times to get out of combat just to heal up if no healer was around. This but really needs to be fixed This is game-breaking in my opinion - if I am solo queuing without a healer it's probably better just to go full Saboteur or Sharpshooter.

 

Overall I have decided that full DF is superior in most situations.

Edited November 24, 2012 by Jenzali

Just my 2¢... I have played a Sabo-spec almost since launch, and have a blast playing it. MM is too turret-like, and I found DF a bit boring. Being an objective-oriented player, Sabo suited my play style just fine. Granted, I don't burn down healers, but I make them run like hell. If they're running, they're not healing. I'm almost always in the top 2-3 in damage/kills/medals, and almost always wind up with at least 1 mvp vote (for what that's worth), win or lose.

 

Respecs are free now, so give Sabo a shot.. it'll be fun!

This is almost my thoughts exactly. In my opinion, I find it easier to kill healers in Sab than SS just for the fact that I have more slows and stuns. A huge issue I had with SS was that people constantly LOS'd me in most cases, they can't do that so easily when slowed and trapped in a inferno! Plus, some of the Op healers forget to run out of my fire before combat stealthing and my damage reveals them, whoops!

Full SS or full Sab is the only viable way to play pvp. Everything else is a joke. Full DF is the support dps spec for a support dps class. You will be unable to carry your team, but will break mezzes and roots. Your reaction time on huttball is complete crap.

 

Those who promote hybrids, should go back to their asassin/shadow main.

 

Whatever you do, i can do better with full SS or full Sab except for tank hunting of course.

Edited December 2, 2012 by NoTomorrow

I disagree that DF is not viable. GS role in PvP is applying pressure on distant targets to whom it's hard to get into melee range (usually healers), or just applying overall pressure to the enemy team from afar. SS is good for that purpose, but DF can do one thing better - moving around. No healer will just stay casting out in the open (esp. Scoundrel). As DF it's much easier to follow the healer all the time while still dealing damage, and apply burst when you catch your target rooted/CCed.

 

As for breaking mezzes - well, you gotta know what you're doing. Over 50% of DPS classes specs have a DoT in their rotation, so discarding them because of that and saying that they'll berak mezzes - that's not correct.

 

In some cases I would prefer SS for the upfront coordinated burst, but in the balanced teams there are other classes to fulfill that role (Assault VGs, Smashers).

Edited December 2, 2012 by Lightning_

I disagree that DF is not viable. GS role in PvP is applying pressure on distant targets to whom it's hard to get into melee range (usually healers), or just applying overall pressure to the enemy team from afar. SS is good for that purpose, but DF can do one thing better - moving around. No healer will just stay casting out in the open (esp. Scoundrel). As DF it's much easier to follow the healer all the time while still dealing damage, and apply burst when you catch your target rooted/CCed.

 

As for breaking mezzes - well, you gotta know what you're doing. Over 50% of DPS classes specs have a DoT in their rotation, so discarding them because of that and saying that they'll berak mezzes - that's not correct.

 

In some cases I would prefer SS for the upfront coordinated burst, but in the balanced teams there are other classes to fulfill that role (Assault VGs, Smashers).

 

Pressure on healers? MM is a pressure tool because it threatens any moment to overwhelm with its burst. Healers are not afraid of DF. 2 out of 3 classes can cleanse the dots into their weaker form. Ask any healer what he is afais of more and he will tell you: marksmanship.

 

As for following healer behind a corner, no way... This is never a snipers job. A sniper out of over is a free kill for anything with a leap or pull. If you are going into enemy territory to ge that elusive heler armed with only 2 dots, you subject yourself to high risks.

 

Let the melee, pt and concelment ops follow healers behind corners. Your job as a sniper is to make sure that once he appears in your sight he risks getting killed. Its a turret class, and thus its best at area denial.

 

Dont get me wrong, the spec is good at what it is supposed to be, a tank killer, a damage machine, but its such a specialized role that you will often feel lacking something, either burst, or control, or help from team mates.

Full SS or full Sab is the only viable way to play pvp. Everything else is a joke.

 

I would agree with this for top level play i.e. Ranked. Long burst set-up, and dots interrupting CC are two massive deal breakers.

 

For normal Warzones though you can play DF and DF/SAB hybrid and have a lot of fun. With skillful energy management you can put up some nice damage totals and enjoy setting people up for huge burst kills.

 

I would like to note that DF isn't super amazing at killing tanks. Try killing a Jugg/ Guard 1v1 spec'd properly. They don't drop very quick. I would go as far as to say DF doesn't 'feel' as effective as it used to be a few patches a go.. but i have no explanation for that so it could just be me.

I would agree with this for top level play i.e. Ranked. Long burst set-up, and dots interrupting CC are two massive deal breakers.

 

For normal Warzones though you can play DF and DF/SAB hybrid and have a lot of fun. With skillful energy management you can put up some nice damage totals and enjoy setting people up for huge burst kills.

 

I would like to note that DF isn't super amazing at killing tanks. Try killing a Jugg/ Guard 1v1 spec'd properly. They don't drop very quick. I would go as far as to say DF doesn't 'feel' as effective as it used to be a few patches a go.. but i have no explanation for that so it could just be me.

 

If you draw the attention of PT, and maras, you will have quite some trouble if you are DF. If you can have a buddy that will keep an eye on you, a tank, a healer or just a sentinel that will draw the attention to himself, then yes DF will pay off. Otherwise, SS or Sab is a safer bet.

If you draw the attention of PT, and maras, you will have quite some trouble if you are DF. If you can have a buddy that will keep an eye on you, a tank, a healer or just a sentinel that will draw the attention to himself, then yes DF will pay off. Otherwise, SS or Sab is a safer bet.

 

What are your thoughts on the MM/Sab hybrid?

If you draw the attention of PT, and maras, you will have quite some trouble if you are DF. If you can have a buddy that will keep an eye on you, a tank, a healer or just a sentinel that will draw the attention to himself, then yes DF will pay off. Otherwise, SS or Sab is a safer bet.

 

I completely disagree with the Marauder comment, PT as a Lethality/DF? Fair enough. Lethality/DF is the squishiest in terms of raw mitigation from talents. Except for ambush/aimedshot knockback you don't lose any of the counter abilties you have and gain a slow off Corrosive/Shrap Bomb. Kiting is just as easy long as you stay within 10m, root them before you reset position, or change targets and roll to distant cover to create a huge gap while not allowing them to leap to you.

 

Any 'slinger/sniper spec should tear through Marauders when played well, some more difficult than others.

 

ON THE MAIN TOPIC:

Full sab offers AMAZING utility, CC, and general objective protection with fairly good on demand burst with a proper rotation. It is imo, one of the best point defenders in the capture objective gameplay and is what I recommend if you want to focus on things other than straight out killing.

Hybrid offers more damage.

Edited December 4, 2012 by Lithy

I completely disagree with the Marauder comment, PT as a Lethality/DF? Fair enough. Lethality/DF is the squishiest in terms of raw mitigation from talents. Except for ambush/aimedshot knockback you don't lose any of the counter abilties you have and gain a slow off Corrosive/Shrap Bomb. Kiting is just as easy long as you stay within 10m, root them before you reset position, or change targets and roll to distant cover to create a huge gap while not allowing them to leap to you.

 

Any 'slinger/sniper spec should tear through Marauders when played well, some more difficult than others.

 

ON THE MAIN TOPIC:

Full sab offers AMAZING utility, CC, and general objective protection with fairly good on demand burst with a proper rotation. It is imo, one of the best point defenders in the capture objective gameplay and is what I recommend if you want to focus on things other than straight out killing.

Hybrid offers more damage.

 

Perhaps i was exaggerating, i meant its much easier to dominate maras with MM or Sab. They do die with lethality too, Any sort of zerg 2 vs you alone will kill you much faster when you are DF. PT and Maras are excelent on ganking you.