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No More Disney Star Wars References in this EU Game


Tofu_Shark

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That does not excuse the amount of disrepect they have shown for everything that came before them and the fans of that universe. It shows they do not appreciate how they got to the position that allowed them to put themselves in the place they are currently in.

 

I am curious: how has Disney/Lucasfilm shown disrespect to the fans of EU/Legends? And how are they not respecting the EU/Legends? The way I see it, making characters like Thrawn to fit into the wider context of their own extended universe is highly appreciated and especially respectful and recognizing the talents of those who created these stories, like Timothy Zahn in this case.

Edited by Rebamcfan
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What they did with Thrawn was respectful because they hired Zahn to write more books about him. I haven't read them yet, but I believe the characterization is similar and he wrote the new books with the old ones in mind. There are incompatibilities due to the change of continuity, but Thrawn is still Thrawn. That is respectful.

 

However what is not respectful is what they did with Quinlan Vos. Take a EU created character, keep the name and a certain resemblance, but then change the story and characterization, and make it canon, supposedly invalidating the original one. Add to that that they did not even credit or thank the original authors anywhere, and I wonder, at that point, why not just create a new character?

 

Dropping EU names and references is not respectful by itself.

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However what is not respectful is what they did with Quinlan Vos. Take a EU created character, keep the name and a certain resemblance, but then change the story and characterization, and make it canon, supposedly invalidating the original one. Add to that that they did not even credit or thank the original authors anywhere, and I wonder, at that point, why not just create a new character?

 

I know I said I wouldn't post in here again, but curiosity has gotten the better of me and I have to know, what did Disney do to Quinlan Vos? Please be specific and reference the exact media.

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I know I said I wouldn't post in here again, but curiosity has gotten the better of me and I have to know, what did Disney do to Quinlan Vos? Please be specific and reference the exact media.

 

The book is called Dark Disciple. You can read the summary on the wookiepedia to see that it clearly doesn't fit with the story of the Republic comics.

 

This quote by John Ostrander was suprisingly easy to find:

 

Credit Where Credit Is Due: I recently picked up a Star Wars novel – Dark Disciple by Christie Golden – because it featured a character created by Jan Duursema and myself for the comics. The character is Quinlan Vos. The book is well written – Ms. Golden is no stranger to novels, especially franchise books – and I’m okay that the characterization of Quin doesn’t really match up with what we did. The story was adapted from some scripts for the Star Wars Clone Wars animated series and Quin was an alternate universe version. Oh, he shared some looks and traits with the original version but in many respect he was a very different character.

 

Look, I can deal with that. I knew from Day One that whatever we created belonged lock, stock, and dreadlocks to Lucas Film Licensing and, now, to Disney. I do wonder why you use an existing character from another medium and then change him so much. However, that’s their prerogative. So be it.

 

My complaint, however, is that there are two sets of acknowledgements at the beginning of the book, one from the author and another from one of the co-writer of the animated episodes who also happens to be George Lucas’ daughter. Nowhere in either of them are Jan and I acknowledged or thanked. Really? I understand that I own no part of Quin. Unlike Amanda Waller and the Suicide Squad, I don’t get any money when Quin is used elsewhere. That was the deal from the start. However, if you’re thanking folks who made it possible – why not the two who originated him?

 

From: https://www.comicmix.com/2016/02/21/john-ostranders-grab-bag/

 

If you've watched the clone wars series you'll remember his silly little appearance that was out of character, apparently this book was the continuation. I personally can't find a good reason to explain why didn't they use a new character if they wanted to tell a new story.

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The book is called Dark Disciple. You can read the summary on the wookiepedia to see that it clearly doesn't fit with the story of the Republic comics.

 

This quote by John Ostrander was suprisingly easy to find:

 

If you've watched the clone wars series you'll remember his silly little appearance that was out of character, apparently this book was the continuation. I personally can't find a good reason to explain why didn't they use a new character if they wanted to tell a new story.

 

Okay, then I guess you don't know that that "silly" appearance from The Clone Wars was from 2010, specifically the episode "Hunt for Ziro" in episode 9 of season 3 that aired on 12 Nov 2010. Long before Disney had anything to do with Star Wars. And, as Ostrander noted, the script for Dark Disciple was adapted from an eight episode story arc that was originally intended for The Clone Wars, was written by George Lucas' daughter, Katie Lucas, and the depiction in that eight story arc and in Dark Disciple, of both Quin and Asajj, are both true to their depictions in The Clone Wars. None of which Disney had anything to do with.

Edited by ceryxp
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The book is called Dark Disciple. You can read the summary on the wookiepedia to see that it clearly doesn't fit with the story of the Republic comics.

 

This quote by John Ostrander was suprisingly easy to find:

 

 

 

If you've watched the clone wars series you'll remember his silly little appearance that was out of character, apparently this book was the continuation. I personally can't find a good reason to explain why didn't they use a new character if they wanted to tell a new story.

 

The changes made to his character by Clone Wars predate Disney and Clone Wars was always considered a "higher canon" than the comics he originated in. If they were ever going to pick the character up again, that's the version that was going to be used. Throwing this on Disney is weird, your issue here is with LucasFilm and the story group there that included this version of the character into Clone Wars in the first place.

 

The issue with the acknowledgements is wholly separate and seems more like an issue with the authors of the new story and the CW episodes as opposed to Disney as a whole, as evidenced by that quote where he states the authors of the story and CW episodes wrote the two acknowledgements. I doubt Disney dictated who they acknowledged in their story, so it again seems weird to throw this on Disney. It's still crummy, obviously, I just don't see how it makes Disney disrespectful when it was the authors that wrote the acknowledgements.

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The changes made to his character by Clone Wars predate Disney and Clone Wars was always considered a "higher canon" than the comics he originated in. If they were ever going to pick the character up again, that's the version that was going to be used. Throwing this on Disney is weird, your issue here is with LucasFilm and the story group there that included this version of the character into Clone Wars in the first place.

 

The issue with the acknowledgements is wholly separate and seems more like an issue with the authors of the new story and the CW episodes as opposed to Disney as a whole, as evidenced by that quote where he states the authors of the story and CW episodes wrote the two acknowledgements. I doubt Disney dictated who they acknowledged in their story, so it again seems weird to throw this on Disney. It's still crummy, obviously, I just don't see how it makes Disney disrespectful when it was the authors that wrote the acknowledgements.

 

Even blaming The Story Group is weird, because when the episode with Vos was in production, the Story Group didn't exist, apart from Leland Chee. Back when GL still owned Lucasfilm, he did a lot of things that went against the EU: Killing off Jedi Master Even Piell in an episode of TCW, even though the character already died in one of the post RotS novels, the new characterization of Vos, the whole issue with the Mandalorians, and Karen Traviss leaving, Maul living, and nearly including Revan and the EU version of Bane in the Mortis Trilogy, even when Bane's... spirt or whatever did appear, fans were still mad about it because it wasn't Bane as he was in the EU (Even though Bane was a creation of George's from the time of TPM). But, a lot of the Anti-Disney 'fans' ignore that, and follow the "Disney is to blame for everything" talking point.

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The book was released in 2015 and therefore it is part of the disney canon, and supposedly approved by them. They could have cancelled it like so many other things. I said that it's not entirely true that Disney is treating the EU with respect, that doesn't mean that I think that what came before did (it didn't). But that is not a matter for this thread.

 

The issue with the acknowledgements is wholly separate and seems more like an issue with the authors of the new story and the CW episodes as opposed to Disney as a whole, as evidenced by that quote where he states the authors of the story and CW episodes wrote the two acknowledgements. I doubt Disney dictated who they acknowledged in their story, so it again seems weird to throw this on Disney. It's still crummy, obviously, I just don't see how it makes Disney disrespectful when it was the authors that wrote the acknowledgements.

I don't know, you can leave to the authors thanking this or that person for helping, but crediting the original creators? That should have been mandatory, if that's not lack of respect I don't know what it is. I don't know whose fault it was, but at least the editors should have caught that. I'm not blaming Disney directly, but it's a Disney Star Wars book.

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The book was released in 2015 and therefore it is part of the disney canon, and supposedly approved by them. They could have cancelled it like so many other things. I said that it's not entirely true that Disney is treating the EU with respect, that doesn't mean that I think that what came before did (it didn't). But that is not a matter for this thread.

 

Which does not change the fact that it was not Disney that changed the character, so Disney can not be blamed for not "respecting" the character. The change to the character occurred in 2010, long before Disney, and the Clone Wars animated series was higher canon than the comic in which Quin first appeared. This is an example of what I commented about before. George Lucas could and would change things from lower levels of canon at will whenever it suited them. Quin is an example of that. The EU was never safe and could be overwritten whenever Lucas and LucasFilm decided to change something. They could, at any time, override something, contradict something, rename planets and characters, kill off characters, resurrect characters, whatever they wanted and the animated Clone Wars is a prime example of T canon (one step below G(eorge) canon) overriding lower levels of canon as it happened quite a lot.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Canon

 

As Leland Chee said in 2006:

The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron. You're never going to know what George's view of the universe beyond the films at any given time because it is constantly evolving. It remains elastic until it gets committed to film or another official source. Even then, we know there's always room for change. Though the Holocron is maintained by Licensing, it is utilized by folks throughout all the Lucas companies.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070227204935/http://forums.starwars.com:80/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=1050

 

Obviously this was said before the Clone Wars animated movie (2008) and series (originally 2008-2014), both of which were produced by LucasFilm and George Lucas was involved with both. Is it any wonder why only G and T canon were carried forward? That only the works specifically produced by George Lucas and LucasFilm were carried forward into the Disney canon? The reason for that is largely in the above quote. Because George Lucas never considered anything Star Wars related as canon that George Lucas did not themselves create.

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The book was released in 2015 and therefore it is part of the disney canon, and supposedly approved by them. They could have cancelled it like so many other things. I said that it's not entirely true that Disney is treating the EU with respect, that doesn't mean that I think that what came before did (it didn't). But that is not a matter for this thread.

 

This is what you said:

 

However what is not respectful is what they did with Quinlan Vos. Take a EU created character, keep the name and a certain resemblance, but then change the story and characterization, and make it canon, supposedly invalidating the original one. Add to that that they did not even credit or thank the original authors anywhere, and I wonder, at that point, why not just create a new character?

 

Note the underlined. You made it seem as though Disney did all of this themselves, but Disney didn't do any of that stuff, LucasFilm did when they brought Vos into Clone Wars. Disney just continued the story of the Clone Wars version since the scripts already existed and that's what's in their canon. It was also already a higher canon than the comics due to the way LucasFilm considered the canon, so even that was already done before Disney came along.

 

I'm not going to say you're wrong and that Disney has treated all the EU stuff they've reused with respect, I honestly don't know. What I will say is I think Quinlan Vos is a bad example of what you're trying to point out, because none of the lack of respect here originated with Disney.

 

I don't know, you can leave to the authors thanking this or that person for helping, but crediting the original creators? That should have been mandatory, if that's not lack of respect I don't know what it is. I don't know whose fault it was, but at least the editors should have caught that. I'm not blaming Disney directly, but it's a Disney Star Wars book.

 

I do feel like this falls squarely on the authors. I don't think publishers should be dictating who or what goes into a novel's acknowledgement outside of double checking for obvious problems like thanking hate groups or something ridiculous like that. Beyond that, it's on the authors. The lack of respect would lie with them, and that seems like who John Ostrander was taking issue with.

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I am curious: how has Disney/Lucasfilm shown disrespect to the fans of EU/Legends? And how are they not respecting the EU/Legends? The way I see it, making characters like Thrawn to fit into the wider context of their own extended universe is highly appreciated and especially respectful and recognizing the talents of those who created these stories, like Timothy Zahn in this case.

The Disney Thrawn is a watered-down version of the EU Thrawn. They did at least ask Timothy Zahn to write more background for him instead of doing it themselves. I've not heard of them doing this for any other character from the EU they wanted to reintroduce though.

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Note the underlined. You made it seem as though Disney did all of this themselves, but Disney didn't do any of that stuff, LucasFilm did when they brought Vos into Clone Wars. Disney just continued the story of the Clone Wars version since the scripts already existed and that's what's in their canon. It was also already a higher canon than the comics due to the way LucasFilm considered the canon, so even that was already done before Disney came along.

My bad then, I understand that had Disney not bought Star Wars, the events of that book would have unfortunately happened in one way or another. But I still think Disney is equally reponsible for allowing that book to be written and published. Just because they inherited that mistake it doesn't mean they had to go along with it. They wouldn't do that with their new canon (or at least I hope).

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  • 5 months later...

Nice to see how this tread is still fairly fresh. My 2 cents:

I don't mind stuff from Disney Wars making its way into SWTOR, as long as it doesn't contradict any previously established Expanded Universe lore. For example if Jakuu shows up in SWTOR with lore that can be assimilated into the EU, then that's perfectly fine with me.

 

Now if something happens in SWTOR that effectively erases or contradicts EU content post-SWTOR and/or pre-SWTOR, I'm calling CS to erase my account.

Edited by Enskojare
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My only response to the several months old OP is that I don't mind winks and nods to things that were actually good about the Disney stuff.

 

I mean let's be honest here, swtor itself has had some pretty stupid things in it, on par with many Disney stuff that since vanilla have fortunately never been brought up again.

 

Remember Nekghouls?

 

The Esh'ka? AKA Evil cows?

 

Yeah...

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My only response to the several months old OP is that I don't mind winks and nods to things that were actually good about the Disney stuff.

 

I mean let's be honest here, swtor itself has had some pretty stupid things in it, on par with many Disney stuff that since vanilla have fortunately never been brought up again.

 

Remember Nekghouls?

 

The Esh'ka? AKA Evil cows?

 

Yeah...

 

These are basically my thoughts, too, and people have just got to accept that "Disney" is not the problem.

 

Sure, the sequel trilogy is God awful; we are all in agreement about that. However; it isn't ALL bad, the Mandalorian proves this and Disney+ just seems to be doing Star Wars right, from Ahsoka, the Obi-Wan series, to re-canon-izing Thrawn, and other shows to come such as Star Wars: Andor, Star Wars: The Acolyte, the Bad Batch, the High Republic series, the Book of Boba Fett.

 

imo, you (general you) have just got to ignore the sequel trilogy, because Disney+ has been doing some darn good work (I think to make up for the sequel trilogy). Disney has just got to give the projects to the right people, Filoni being an obvious choice to take over, but also Tiger Waititi and Deborah Chow. Especially, after the season 2 final of Mando, I'm pretty confident we'll be getting a certain series.

Edited by TyonYlle
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Remember Nekghouls?

 

The Esh'ka? AKA Evil cows?

 

Why exactly are these bad? Because you don't like them? :rak_03:

 

Same could be said about the Yuuzhan Vong. Remember them? AKA Klingon-styled aliens copied from Star Trek which homeplanet can transform theirself into a person? Absolutely ridiculous and makes no sense at all but people take it as given just because it was featured in some comic :rolleyes:

 

Belsavis was a prison planet first controlled by the Rakata and we don't know anything about them or their timeline and their enemys so its super possible that there was a conquerer race like the Esh-Ka out there before. But I get the point of some people. They just dislike something and it makes immediately no sense ingame or is a "game breaking decision" in their minds.

 

There were some bad decisions in this game indeed, but for sure not in the vanilla game.

Edited by Jesseriah
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  • 3 weeks later...

Well then, why are you posting in it Steve? You're only bumping it when you could be raining on everyone's suggestions. Thanks for keeping the thread alive, by the way. :jawa_biggrin:

 

The topic was beyond stale even before the thread began, sorry to say.

Was that really necessary?

 

I dunno, I think SW discourse could use one more pejorative or complaint about women.

Strawman. I never complained about women. My problem is with anything that acknowledges the existence of Disney Star Wars in the EU, especially the sequels.

 

My only response to the several months old OP is that I don't mind winks and nods to things that were actually good about the Disney stuff.

 

I mean let's be honest here, swtor itself has had some pretty stupid things in it, on par with many Disney stuff that since vanilla have fortunately never been brought up again.

 

Remember Nekghouls?

 

The Esh'ka? AKA Evil cows?

 

Yeah...

Esh-ka are an equine species, not bovine, and neither them nor nekghouls are stupid, unlike the crap Disney has introduced.

 

These are basically my thoughts, too, and people have just got to accept that "Disney" is not the problem.

 

Sure, the sequel trilogy is God awful; we are all in agreement about that. However; it isn't ALL bad, the Mandalorian proves this and Disney+ just seems to be doing Star Wars right, from Ahsoka, the Obi-Wan series, to re-canon-izing Thrawn, and other shows to come such as Star Wars: Andor, Star Wars: The Acolyte, the Bad Batch, the High Republic series, the Book of Boba Fett.

 

imo, you (general you) have just got to ignore the sequel trilogy, because Disney+ has been doing some darn good work (I think to make up for the sequel trilogy). Disney has just got to give the projects to the right people, Filoni being an obvious choice to take over, but also Tiger Waititi and Deborah Chow. Especially, after the season 2 final of Mando, I'm pretty confident we'll be getting a certain series.

It's more than just the sequels, but those are the references that have been being made in the game, and that pisses me off that that bantha poodoo even gets an acknowledgement of existence.

 

Filoni is not flawless. He did Rebels and that introduced corrupted EU elements. He probably didn't have total say in those decisions, but that stuff is there, and it set up threads that have to be followed through, and they are, and that continues the corruption. Mandalorian is visually impressive, but because it has to follow these threads to the end, it's limited in the directions the story can take.

 

  • Bad Batch? That's just a ripoff of the Republic Commandos. The Commandos were at least realistic. The Bad Batch is so ridiculously OP. They're going to have to tone them down to make the audience believe they're in any real peril.
  • Thrawn is a watered-down version of his former EU b-a-d-a-s-s self. What? I can't say ******?
  • Cassian Andor? Another forgettable character created by Disney from a lackluster standalone.
  • Ahsoka? I just don't care what happens to her since Clone Wars ended because Rebels is not a worthy successor.
  • I don't see how Obi-Wan can have his own series when he's stuck on Tatooine, watching over Luke. It's a whole planet, but Tatooine is sparsely populated compared to other worlds. Maybe they could make a short, single season story but nothing of significant length. This is an American production though. They can't resist marching a horse to death, beating it, resurrecting it, then beating it to death, and then continue to beat it after it's undead dead.
  • High Republic? That's just Disney's attempt at recreating the success of the KotOR era. They already screwed themselves over in the development phase. I look forward to its utter failure.
  • Book of Boba Fett? This came as a surprise. We shall see how it turns out. Still, it has to follow threads already established. It may have a bit more freedom, but they will still have to acknowledge them in the background.
  • Acolyte? Sounds like it's about an inquisitor, another EU element they corrupted.

 

Why exactly are these bad? Because you don't like them? :rak_03:

 

Same could be said about the Yuuzhan Vong. Remember them? AKA Klingon-styled aliens copied from Star Trek which homeplanet can transform theirself into a person? Absolutely ridiculous and makes no sense at all but people take it as given just because it was featured in some comic :rolleyes:

 

Belsavis was a prison planet first controlled by the Rakata and we don't know anything about them or their timeline and their enemys so its super possible that there was a conquerer race like the Esh-Ka out there before. But I get the point of some people. They just dislike something and it makes immediately no sense ingame or is a "game breaking decision" in their minds.

 

There were some bad decisions in this game indeed, but for sure not in the vanilla game.

I'd take the Vong storyline over anything Disney has done.

Edited by Tofu_Shark
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I think you are unfair with this because at the end of the day exclusive rights go to Disney +, while EA is middle man and Bioware does what they are told, or rather people who create the content have to listen to brass who "overseers", " manage it". - If Disney suggests, EA wants to grab more reins over the whole contract thing, they will insist that somehow that's added to the game - truth to be told most people didn't even noticed it.

 

That's how our world is structured and that's how it will always work. So until Bioware becomes completely independent with rights of IP to SW snatched from Disney to do as they like, you will have to deal with the fact that the game is going to be subject of subtle or a bit more aggressive marketing campaign for major cannon installments

Edited by Senteliks
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