On my phone, so can't send a long reply but warren, ventress can't leap over the fire, it says no jumping over obstacles.....

But beni, clarify, can grievious climb under?

Addressing Luke:

 

No one ever said Luke wasn't a skilled fighter. But listen. How did Anakin do against lightning? How did Luke? What do Ventress and Dooku have? Lightning. Vader did not have lightning, and Luke defeated him. But as soon as the Emperor poored lightning on Luke, he was doomed. He simply did not know how to counter it during RotJ. So yes, Luke is a grade-A duelist. But, unfortunately for him, Ventress and Dooku don't need to best him in combat. They just need to zap him a few times.

Actually, Luke couldn't parry the lightning because he'd thrown away his saber. If he actually had his weapon in-hand, he might be able to deflect the lightning. We can't fairly judge that because he was never shown facing a lightning-user while armed.

Actually, Luke couldn't parry the lightning because he'd thrown away his saber. If he actually had his weapon in-hand, he might be able to deflect the lightning. We can't fairly judge that because he was never shown facing a lightning-user while armed.

Good point.

However, this can still happen (0:00-0:19). Obviously, if you are not trained to deflect lightning, as I'm almost sure Luke is not, a lightsaber won't do much good against it, for sure if he's taking an aggressive stance and dashing at Dooku to get in a slash.

Warren, Ventress can't leap over the fire, it says no jumping over obstacles.....

But beni, clarify, can grievious climb under?

Ah, true. Well, she can leap to other platforms then. If Grievous can't do his awesome 4-legged spider-type thing, that's just lame. That's one of his coolest advantages!

Good point.

 

 

However, this can still happen (0:00-0:19). Obviously, if you are not trained to deflect lightning, as I'm almost sure Luke is not, a lightsaber won't do much good against it, for sure if he's taking an aggressive stance and dashing at Dooku to get in a slash.

first off in this one anakin was not thinking straight nor was he any where near as good as he was towards the end or as vader. I think I may be starting to see the problem with peoples thoughts on RoTJ Luke.

RotJ Luke along with Vader/anakin is the only instance where A>B>C logic works and its not just because one is more powerful then the other but because of the way RoTJ Luke was trained and the feats that were shown and described in the movies and the books.

Firstly Luke learned next to no LS combat from his mentor's his style was an exact mirror of Vader's but with dials going to 11. Thus in saber combat any one anakin or vader defeated in saber combat would fall even faster against Luke as Luke is using the same exact thing but better.

secondly everything he learned from his mentors was based around increasing his physical body his senses and his telekentic powers. The last of which was something Vader bested him with in ESB and was one more thing Luke attempted to mimic of his father.

Luke's plan to defeat his father was to become his equal in every single way and in RotJ the movie tries to show you that he not only succeeded but surpassed his father in every way. The first scene you see of Luke is him choking 2 gamoreans with little effort, up until this point no one had ever choked more then 1 person at a time Luke was the first to choke 2, Though the number i generally dont count as its generally assumed vader could do the same and probably has in other media by now but the whole point of the scene is to show that Luke has massivly improved and to show how he is beggining to mirror his fathers abilities the next scene is a similar mirror to vader's past showings in the movies when Luke grabs a blaster from a guy and it goes shooting accrossed the room and neatly into Luke's hand. This scene was meant to be a direct mirror the when vader took the blaster from Han. Its to simbolize again that Luke had become Vader's equal in every single way imaginable.

Finally by defeating his father at the end it suggests that not only like shown before was he his father's equal in every way but that he was in fact his supperior in every way Luke trained to mimic his father's every ability and not only did he succeed in mirroring them he succeeded in surpasing them. He surpassed his father to such a point that when Luke fought Vader, Vader fell under the pressure about 1 minute. Knowing the power and skill difference between RoTJ Vader and RoTS Anakin suggests that Vader would defeat anakin in a similar time frame. And if people Like Vader and anakin (who relly on shear power to over come there opponents) are over come by shear power in under a minute those that are more vunerable to such an attack such as dooku or ventress would fall even faster this is why i believe if they were to pull their sabers Luke would end then in less then 10 Seconds and why i believe it would look Like Sidious vs the 3 masters.

Also should be noted that the first time Luke did face a lightning user while armed he had no problem instinctivly deflecting it and since RotJ Luke knows it exists do to his run in with the emporer he will not be surprised by it and will react the same way he did when he first ran into it armed later down the road Dooku and Ventress 2v1 Luke and lose in seconds.

This being said if I were the seperatists i would send durge and greivous to attack Luke first while i believe Luke could defeat greivous do to shear power, great saber skill and the ability to use the force he is slightly tougher and more durable then either dooku or ventress and doesnt have such glaring weaknesses as those 2 have along with durge (as far as i know) being a friken tank would be able to hold Luke at bay for some time. While Dooku could square off against galen which (if any of you read one of my previous posts) would be a much more even fight, and finally of course ventress squaring off with Rohm which could go who knows where R2 would not come into play until the middle was more controlled as such until the battle was decided he would remain out and hidden.

If the rebels are smart Galen will try to fry greivous early and Luke will engage ventress and Dooku taking out 3 of the seps in a matter of seconds so the whole team can turn on durge. once thats taken care of the middle should be hard to regain back as the seps will be trying to fight there way through all kinds of traps and the rebel team all the way from their end zone to the middle.

I'm really getting annoyed with this "matter of seconds" thing.

No one here will be one-shoting anyone, unless it's R2-D2 getting blown to bits. One does not simply one-shot other lightsaber duelists. And if you're going to compare Ventress, Dooku, and Luke to Palpatine and the 3 Jedi, remember who is the Jedi and who is the Sith.

If you want a power comparison, look at how Dooku dueled Yoda to a standstill, and how Yoda did not use any telekinetics against Dooku (by your logic) because he knew it would have no affect.

Saying that people will be one-shoted is far from the truth when it comes to these combatants. No one here is sub-par at dueling, nor are they physically weak. Not only is it offensive to the characters that you would underestimate them so completely, but it's also harmful to the debate to call insta-win because Luke is da bomb.

But if you can I can. Once again, Force Choke people. Force Choke would kill Luke in a heartbeat.

If the rebels are smart Galen will try to fry greivous early and Luke will engage ventress and Dooku taking out 3 of the seps in a matter of seconds so the whole team can turn on durge. once thats taken care of the middle should be hard to regain back as the seps will be trying to fight there way through all kinds of traps and the rebel team all the way from their end zone to the middle.

Grievous has 4 lightsabers. And seeing as he was trained by Dooku, I have no doubt that he knows how to block lightning with them.

Speaking of blocking lightning, you 2v1 scenario still makes no sense. In order to block lightning with a lightsaber, you must stand still and concentrate all your strength into repelling it. So while Dooku is zapping Luke's lightsaber, Ventress could easily come up from behind and slice him across the back. Either Luke moves to block her attack and gets a face full of lightning, or he gets a back full of saber.

And for the traps, even if the Seps have to make it through traps that are completely on, Durge can do it. He has plenty of armor.

Grievous has 4 lightsabers. And seeing as he was trained by Dooku, I have no doubt that he knows how to block lightning with them.

Not true, dooku always believed "A wise master never reveals all his secrets."

He never taught savage how to block lightning, and I believe dooku would realise grievious might try to make a power play at one stage or another, so he'd need a way to defeat him quickly....

Besides, I thought channeling lightning into a blade required force sensitivity?

Not true, dooku always believed "A wise master never reveals all his secrets."

He never taught savage how to block lightning, and I believe dooku would realise grievious might try to make a power play at one stage or another, so he'd need a way to defeat him quickly....

Besides, I thought channeling lightning into a blade required force sensitivity?

Well then I suppose the same argument can be made here as for Luke. Instinct. Bolts of lightning coming towards you, what do you do? Block it. With the weapons that can block pretty much every energy weapon.

I'm not sure about the Force Sensitivity stuff. But if that's true, where's the lightning gonna go? Has a non-Force user ever countered lightning with a lightsaber? (Seems unlikely.)

Well then I suppose the same argument can be made here as for Luke. Instinct. Bolts of lightning coming towards you, what do you do? Block it. With the weapons that can block pretty much every energy weapon.

 

I'm not sure about the Force Sensitivity stuff. But if that's true, where's the lightning gonna go? Has a non-Force user ever countered lightning with a lightsaber? (Seems unlikely.)

I don't know to be honest, this isn't my area of strength, I meant I'm no aubere (+1 to anyone who remembers that)

I was just under the impression lightning was redirected into the saber by a form of tutaminis.... I could be wrong...

I'm really getting annoyed with this "matter of seconds" thing.

 

No one here will be one-shoting anyone, unless it's R2-D2 getting blown to bits. One does not simply one-shot other lightsaber duelists. And if you're going to compare Ventress, Dooku, and Luke to Palpatine and the 3 Jedi, remember who is the Jedi and who is the Sith.

 

If you want a power comparison, look at how Dooku dueled Yoda to a standstill, and how Yoda did not use any telekinetics against Dooku (by your logic) because he knew it would have no affect.

 

Saying that people will be one-shoted is far from the truth when it comes to these combatants. No one here is sub-par at dueling, nor are they physically weak. Not only is it offensive to the characters that you would underestimate them so completely, but it's also harmful to the debate to call insta-win because Luke is da bomb.

 

But if you can I can. Once again, Force Choke people. Force Choke would kill Luke in a heartbeat.

Yoda is not Luke you are failing to see the reason behind the argument Luke is Anakin to the power of 10 if ventress and dooku could not stand up against Anakin for very Long they would be finished by Luke faster for the same reason they couldnt stand up against anakin i am not calling Dooku or Ventress weak nor am i saying Luke is Uber powerful all i am saying is they were already beat by some one who is EXACTLY like Luke but with half the power. As far as the 2 sided thing you should note how easily Obi-wan blocked Dooku's Lightning its also dodge able the point is Lightning is their only trick one that will be countered quickly and once they engage in lightsaber combat they ARE done in seconds not because they are some chumps with the saber (the masters that sidious took out werent chumps either but it didnt make a difference). Its because the way they lost was purely overpowered by some one who is EXACTLY like Luke with half the power speed skill and so forth by exactly i mean every tactic anakin would use Luke Mirrored and would use to a better extent.

Again you arent reading everything if you did you would have known like i said yoda didnt send Luke to defeat Vader he sent him to defeat vader and the emporer something yoda couldnt do. Yoda was saying Luke> himself at least the areas that mattered when facing the emporer. And if Yoda was confident Luke could face palp on close to even footing someting only him and windu could do (dooku would Lose quickly to the emporer also dooku didnt lose instantly to yoda because yoda wasnt djem so user different fighting style so the comparison is meaningless).

As for greivous blocking the lightning from galen the difference here is the lack of any kind of precog that comes with force sensitivity along with 4 sabers and not 1, 4 sabers can actually make it more difficult to mount a proper defense against lightning because lightning arcs as you dont want the other sabers to get in the way its possible the lightning will arc around one of the sabers and still zap the user. When defending against lightning a single saber is best and you need some combat precog to react fast enough (something Luke is known for having an abundance of)

AND FINALLY STOP THE FORCE CHOKE LUKE USES FORCE CHOKE HE IS TELEKENTICALLY VADERS EQUAL IN EVERY WAY. seriously EVERYTHING vader can do luke can do BETTER.

P.S again i am not saying Luke can one shot any one that would be a falacy A is not automatically better then B just because of power this is 100% a pure case of being an exact mirror of some one we already saw defeat them with double everything please people realise this. I am not calling people weak but we have to realise luke is EXTREMLY powerful he is 95% of the emporer if not the emporer's equal. By RotJ again Yoda was pretty much calling Luke more powerful then himself at the end of RotJ Luke IS one of the most powerful the jedi ever produced on par with both Windu and Yoda he is not some no one who only knows how to use a sword good. If you truely believe that its do to not paying attention to what the movie was trying to show you. He is a FULLY FLEDGED jedi knight not just a saber fighter his force defenses are just as good as his saber combat.

Few points to address:

Force choke: Is by no means an insta-kill I'm afraid. As all trained Force users have a power called Force resistance. Which effectively acts as a shield against aggressive Force powers - hence why you don't see Force users thrashing others around like rag dolls. Now one's ability in this power is gauged in one's strength in the Force, the more powerful a Force user you are, the greater your Force resistance. Dooku was able to break Kenobi's resistance but he did catch him by surprise and Obi is not as powerful a Force user as Luke, so his resistance will be significantly higher. Force chokes can also be 'broken' through say a Force push or repulse.

Stunning: Combatants drop the ball if stunned by say, Force lightning. So if Luke was holding the ball and was hit by lightning he would drop it.

Deflecting lightning: According to Wookieepedia - 'Depending on the level of intensity, Force lightning could ground itself on an ignited lightsaber, with no apparent ill effect on the lightsaber's operation.' So I would assume it requires little/no training and that anyone skilled with a lightsaber would be able to deflect lightning with one, unless caught of guard as Anakin was. However a lightning attack on the magnitude Marek can produce would likely be undeflectable.

Obstacles: These cannot be jumped over, or climbed under. However Grievous is free to climb about the rest of the arena as he likes.

"I'm no Aurbere": I remember that.

Few points to address:

 

Force choke: Is by no means an insta-kill I'm afraid. As all trained Force users have a power called Force resistance. Which effectively acts as a shield against aggressive Force powers - hence why you don't see Force users thrashing others around like rag dolls. Now one's ability in this power is gauged in one's strength in the Force, the more powerful a Force user you are, the greater your Force resistance. Dooku was able to break Kenobi's resistance but he did catch him by surprise and Obi is not as powerful a Force user as Luke, so his resistance will be significantly higher. Force chokes can also be 'broken' through say a Force push or repulse.

 

Stunning: Combatants drop the ball if stunned by say, Force lightning. So if Luke was holding the ball and was hit by lightning he would drop it.

 

Deflecting lightning: According to Wookieepedia - 'Depending on the level of intensity, Force lightning could ground itself on an ignited lightsaber, with no apparent ill effect on the lightsaber's operation.' So I would assume it requires little/no training and that anyone skilled with a lightsaber would be able to deflect lightning with one, unless caught of guard as Anakin was. However a lightning attack on the magnitude Marek can produce would likely be undeflectable.

 

Obstacles: These cannot be jumped over, or climbed under. However Grievous is free to climb about the rest of the arena as he likes.

 

"I'm no Aurbere": I remember that.

Honostly this seems to make me certain even more that the rebels have this in the bag I just dont see the seps getting the ball very far (except durge whom like i said i have little knowledge of) beyond that i dont suspect Luke will be hit by Lightning as this has said already blocking it shouldnt be much of an issue and once its blocked niether dooku or ventress are likely to try it again unless they were to try to sneak attack Luke (LOL GOOD LUCK his senses are one of his strongest points). I am not sure galens lightning was truely all that powerful though, it seems like that might just be game mechanics and his lightning was just slightly stronger then dooku's but I am probably misinterpretting something so i am just going to leave that one alone for now just suffice to say i am unsure Galen is on the lvl people think he is.

Good point.

 

 

However, this can still happen (0:00-0:19). Obviously, if you are not trained to deflect lightning, as I'm almost sure Luke is not, a lightsaber won't do much good against it, for sure if he's taking an aggressive stance and dashing at Dooku to get in a slash.

True, but at the same time, Obi-Wan had never encountered Force lighting ever, either, and he blocked it easily enough. I doubt Luke will charge in impetuously, so he has a very good chance of deflecting it.

Yay, the next match!

I will start with a few observations I want to make. After that I will formulate the strategy I would try to use as the leader of the separatists/as the leader of the rebels.

Mobility: Among the "players with names" only one of them isn't highly mobile (Durge). The others can jump/climb/jetpack-fly up on platforms. In particular, they can jump down into the pit and get up to the last area before the goalline without ever encountering any firetraps.

Speed: I will split up the "players with names" into three groups, concerning speed. Durge and R2 are the slow ones (relatively). Then we are left with 6 fast force users, however if i think about the movies and the game TFU, I conclude the following (I haven't seen much of TFU2, but from what I saw I guess it doesn't interfere with my point.): Galen, Ventress and Grievous are the really fast ones, while Dooku, Luke and Rahm Kota are slower in comparison.

Strategy of the separatists: Durge will engage Galen Marek and keep him busy.

2 of the commando droids are sent to track down and eliminate R2 (assuming the droids can communicate efficiently with each other over the whole pit they won't have any trouble finding him).

The other 2 commando droids are sent to disturb the alliance forces as much as they can.

Dooku will engage either Luke or Kota and keep him busy (probably Luke, as I consider him the more dangerous one and yes, I believe these two are matched quite evenly and keep each other busy for a long time).

Meanwhile Ventress and Grievous will use their speed and coordinated passing to score as much as they can. They are agile enough to avoid attacks from the alliance forces and Kota can't keep up with them (plus Ventress and Grievous can shredder the alliance forces if necessary).

Strategy of the rebels: Galen will engage Durge and keep him busy (He is the only one who can do it, because he is fast enough to avoid and repel dangerous attacks etc (like Ventress and Grievous above)).

Luke and Kota will engage the other enemies "with names", while the alliance forces try to score using smart passing to make up for their lack in speed.

R2 will use his jetpack to fly near the goalline hoping for a pass (his ability to hack the firetraps seems useless to me in this match).

Assuming both sides use these strategies I think the separatists will win, because Grievous is exceptionally skilled at running from a fight. He can escape any enemy, go straight for the ball carrier and nail him down (even if it wasn't an alliance force). Ventress is good at escaping as well so she can do similarly. Therefore the rebels attempts to a score can be interrupted easily while the separatists are just too fast.

Suggestion for future match-ups: Could we have a match between two of the class crews in the game? (like Troopers crew vs Bounty Hunters crew) Without the protocoll droid and the missing spots filled up with HK-51 units. Just don't use the Jedi Knights crew, because Scourge is much stronger than any other companion lorewise.

Yay, the next match!

*snip*

Dooku will engage either Luke or Kota and keep him busy (probably Luke, as I consider him the more dangerous one and yes, I believe these two are matched quite evenly and keep each other busy for a long time).

*snip*

Luke fighting for real starts at 3:38 his father is toppled by shear power in under a minute Luke is only 20% more then vader and nearly double anakin. By this extent Vader would actually topple anakin in the same manner luke toppled him but instead of taking a minute it would take 30 seconds. By this extent any one anakin beat would be handled in an even faster manner By vader or Luke you have ALL comfirmed my belief EVERY SINGLE ONE of you greatly underestimates Luke's abilities dooku and ventress by extent of EXACT same tactics but power scaled means their is no and should never be a question of how the fight looks Luke topples them in under 10 seconds check the abilities and for once truelly understand the capabilities of the fighters this is the one case of Which A>B>C Logic works and it works at a truely grand lvl to show you just how much dooku or ventress vs Luke have no chance.

also any one who has read the novel knows the fight didnt truely start till 2:00 only then did anakin truely start fighting. so again Luke bests vader under a minute vader woudl best anakin in under a minute and anakin bests dooku in under a minute since Luke uses the same abilities as anakin just better luke bests dooku in under 10 seconds. please guys for once recognize Luke for what he is and get passed the flashyness of the prequals the clone war series and see for once what would truelly happen if Luke faced these people.

Tunewalker makes a good point, Luke defeated Vader pretty handedly and pretty quickly. Nonetheless we must remember that he was fueled by the dark side, so it is not totally indicative of his feats.

Nonetheless given that Vader as Anakin managed to defeat Dooku and had clearly surpassed him, and had not yet reached the pinnacle of his skills in Djem So, Luke will likely defeat Dooku with relative ease. Nonetheless Dooku's form lends itself to economy and efficiency, he will not tire out and will likely be able to evade Luke's less refined yet powerful attacks.

And as soon as Dooku begins to lose, he will resort to Force lightning.

Ok people, let's get to the real reason Seps win this.

They're the bad guys.

Loyalty messes things up for heroes. Really, it's probably the one sure-fire fatal flaw that every "good guy" has. R2-D2 is loyal to Luke. Luke is loyal to R2-D2. Rahm is loyal to Starkiller. Starkiller is loyal to Rahm. Luke is loyal to Starkiller (founder of the Rebels). Luke is loyal to Rahm, as one of the last surviving Jedi. Etc.

If any one of these loyalties is tested, the heroes will choose to aide their fellows, rather than win. A Huttball match victory is not worth as much as saving their allies. If Luke has the ball, but R2-D2 is being racked by lightning and screaming? He'll drop everything to help his friend. Including the ball. Same goes for any of the other loyalties listed above.

Seps, on the other hand, will have no remorse about allowing their teammates to take one for the team while pushing on ahead to score. If Luke really does cut down Ventress? Who cares? Grievous has left them in the dust, and is about to score. Then Luke gives chase, but what's that? Starkiller being pounded by Durge? Luke gives up the chase to help his friend.

Because that's what good guys do.

Loyalty is a fatal flaw best left out of a Huttball match, and why the Seps will win.

Warren, the same argument could be said for the "Villains." If dooku sees ventress about to be slain by Marek, he wont try to save her at all if it even potentially endangers him...

Plus, lets remember, they respawn

Warren, the same argument could be said for the "Villains." If dooku sees ventress about to be slain by Marek, he wont try to save her at all if it even potentially endangers him...

Plus, lets remember, they respawn

Exactly. He won't help her, unless she has the ball, and thus is key to victory. He'll be more objective oriented. And every good Huttball team is objective oriented. They won't take the time to partake in useless fights. While they might die more, they'll also score more because they're dashing to the goal, not running around trying to make sure all their friends are okay.

And even if they respawn, they're still being hurt and dying each time. Good guys don't let good guys die.

Exactly. He won't help her, unless she has the ball, and thus is key to victory. He'll be more objective oriented. And every good Huttball team is objective oriented. They won't take the time to partake in useless fights. While they might die more, they'll also score more because they're dashing to the goal, not running around trying to make sure all their friends are okay.

 

And even if they respawn, they're still being hurt and dying each time. Good guys don't let good guys die.

I highly doubt they're objective oriented, probably going for self glory and preservation than anything. Let alone personal vendettas.

I highly doubt they're objective oriented, probably going for self glory and preservation than anything. Let alone personal vendettas.

XD Alright, we'll have to meet in the middle on this, seeing as none of these characters would ever even consider playing Huttball. Much less would they care about winning.

But none of the Seps have any vendettas against the Rebels. Glory will motivate them to score and win.

XD Alright, we'll have to meet in the middle on this, seeing as none of these characters would ever even consider playing Huttball. Much less would they care about winning.

 

But none of the Seps have any vendettas against the Rebels. Glory will motivate them to score and win.

Didn't ya know, Good guys always win in the end

Didn't ya know, Good guys always win in the end

They can lose the battle, but still win the war.

Tunewalker makes a good point, Luke defeated Vader pretty handedly and pretty quickly. Nonetheless we must remember that he was fueled by the dark side, so it is not totally indicative of his feats.

 

Nonetheless given that Vader as Anakin managed to defeat Dooku and had clearly surpassed him, and had not yet reached the pinnacle of his skills in Djem So, Luke will likely defeat Dooku with relative ease. Nonetheless Dooku's form lends itself to economy and efficiency, he will not tire out and will likely be able to evade Luke's less refined yet powerful attacks.

 

And as soon as Dooku begins to lose, he will resort to Force lightning.

these are very good points except for one thing Dooku was using the same famed saber style and economic fighting style against Anakin who IS Darth Vader of whom Luke mirrored and even while using said style according to the book each blow from anakin shook Dooku to the bone. He couldnt get away and if he couldn't get away from Anakin he isn't getting away from some one who essentially anakin times 2. In fact if Anakins blows shook him to the bone Luke's blows will shatter him its why i have been saying a powerful blow from Luke will bring either ventress or Dooku to their knees ending any of their mobilty and nocking them completely prone and open with just a single blow. Not just because Djem So but because Mirror Djem So of Vader who IS Anakin just greater and Anakin was the one to topple both of these opponents with the same exact method that Vader himself had been toppled and the same exact method that Luke himself will use only with double the force speed and efficiency.

I will give you though that Luke was Fueled by the Dark side there but, I will argue that he didnt neccisarily need the dark side to defeat his father. Again from the information in the book and from carefully watching the scenes leading up to that Luke was not trying to fight his father at all in fact from 45 seconds into the video until the end there is not a single attack from Luke at all, after the first initial wave (which showed him dominating his father just as badly as when he was fueld by the dark side) Luke stopped attacking all together until the very end. He was not trying while his father was giving everything he had to defeat his son because Vader wanted to prove to his son (and to probably some extent himself) that the ONLY way that Luke would ever have enough power to defend those he cared about was to turn himself over to the darkside. Trying to tell his son that the only way to be strong enough to stop evil beings was to turn to evil and join him and Vader recognized that with out giving everything he had he could not show this to his son that with out giving it his all this lesson would not be taught. Not just that but if memory serves according to the book at around 1:30 in the video Vader was actually starting to get frustrated that defeating his son was this difficult that even though he was giving everything Luke still wasnt and yet Luke was matching him move for move not showing any signs of wear.

P.S I reread your post one more time and my question is did you mean Luke's less refined attacks as in less refined then Dooku's or less refined then Anakin's. I am assuming with my above post that you mean Dooku but if you do in fact mean Anakin then we have found the disconnect. Luke perfectly mirrored Vader's abilities his Djem So isnt less refined then Anakin's it is more refined. Takeing every strength the form and adding the mobility of Ataru, the foot work of makashi along with the multiple opponent and blaster opponent defenses of soresu and shien. This is the form Luke managed to copy from Vader this is the form he would use against Dooku. Luke's saber style is not less refined then anakin's its more refined it is Anakin's form taken to an entirely knew lvl one that vader created and his son perfectly mirrored.