The first thing that comes to mind is some ninja pulling dps (typically sentinel) who constantly rushes ahead of the rest of the group and jumps into new enemy mobs before the tank has pulled causing the whole pack to attack him, then expecting to be healed through it or expecting the tank to have aggro before the tank is even there.

 

 

I'm just highlighting this post.

If a DPS constantly runs ahead and aggro's everything, I wont heal him.

Although, I always ask the DPS to wait for the tank. I make an effort to solve the issue in a nice way. Sadly, often the DPS wont answer me or s/he will reply rudely. Normally after that happens, both me and the tank(even if it's just some random tank I just met) will allow the DPS to go ahead and do what he wants... AKA we sit there and watch him die.

Yes, FPs can be two manned and all that, but that doesn't mean everyone wants to let the DPS lead the group.

Granted, I normally don't que solo. Most of my groups are "premades" so I don't deal with these issues often.

I'm just highlighting this post.

 

If a DPS runs ahead and aggro's everything before the tank can even get there, I wont heal him.

 

Although, I always ask the DPS to wait for the tank. I make an effort to solve the issue in a nice way. Sadly, often the DPS wont answer me or s/he will reply rudely. Normally after that happens, both me and the tank(even if it's just some random tank I just met) will allow the DPS to go ahead and do what he wants... AKA we sit there and watch him die.

 

Yes, FPs can be two manned and all that, but that doesn't mean everyone wants to let the DPS lead the group.

 

Granted, I normally don't que solo. Most of my groups are "premades" so I don't deal with these issues often.

I just hope u are talking about actual hard fights, not that u watch such DPS die in every regular group of mobs where it doesnt really matter who starts the fight.

I just hope u are talking about actual hard fights, not that u watch such DPS die in every regular group of mobs where it doesnt really matter who starts the fight.

I'm talking about DPS that constantly run ahead and aggro everything in a FP.

... which is too bad. This kind of elitist snobbery - insulting newer players, telling them to 'lrn2play', berating them for not knowing the 'proper order' of their attacks, etc.. - this kind of garbage will absolutely drive me out of the game (and people like me).

 

Game designers/Devs, take note - choosing this path of designing the game to be unfriendly to casual players will be the end of the game, and good riddance.

 

Making the game so sensitive to not using the proper, perfect attack rotation is both petty and boooring. I have better things to do than play a game that requires me to 'become an expert' at it - or with players that insist on the same.

 

I agree that insulting new players and elitist snobbery isn't welcome, and shouldn't be.

However, I disagree with what you're saying to the game designers. There is plenty of end-game content that casual players who may or may not have optimised gear and a good rotation could get through- dailies in four areas, Story Mode flashpoints, even most Hard mode flashpoints and maybe Story Mode Operations (depending on the group).

Think about how easy it is to just Google "SWTOR sentinel rotation", or "SWTOR level 50 sentinel gear" (for example). If players want to participate in harder content, the information is out there... I don't think it's over the top to expect people to know how to play and gear their character for harder content. There's even in-game tutorials and information about end-game stuff on this website. You'd think that if someone nicely suggested you should work on your gear and/ or rotation, a decent person would thank them and ask for more information or look it up themselves. I did, when I was new!

Without knowing more about what's happened to you, OP, I'd say: keep at it, don't let nasty people ruin your fun. If you haven't found a friendly guild yet, try looking or putting a post in your Server's sub-forum.

Are you new to the MMO scene? As far as MMOs go this one is really up there in terms of being casual-friendly. More to the point, it doesn't matter what the game design is like. So long as there are even the most minute differences in abilities, the community is going to figure out what the best combination is and promote that as the accepted standard. It really and truly isn't a game design issue unless content is literally unbeatable without said excessive optimization.

 

If that's not your thing and it bothers you that much, MMOs might not be for you.

'Understanding that it's good to be an expert' and 'expecting that others are all experts, otherwise they are not worthy of one's time, consideration, respect, or polite treatment' are 2 different things. The more games are designed to be so hard as to make 'proper rotations' and outside game knowledge the difference between beating a scenario and a team wipe, the more this elitist attitude is promoted.

I am certainly new to the WoW-esque MMO type, though I do have experience with another MMO, and the more this WoWish kind of gameplay/design is reflected in SWTOR, the less I like it, just my opinion. I'll be voting with my wallet as far as that is concerned - as long as I enjoy the game, I'll be here, but I certainly won't stand around and watch while people like the OP are treated the way he claims while others take a superior attitude because they know the game better - or for any reason, for that matter. A friendly community is more important than some guy's ability to "win".

Hola fellow Adventurers. I must agree that the overall community has become very elitist. I recently Re subbed after an extended away period, and am very disappointed with attitude of those that i find in the ques and pugs. I reasently attempted to take my Full Rakata geared Asassin tank to to a HM EV (for old times sake). I had no interest in gear just an opportunity at comms and maybe some fun. As soon as I accepted the invite to the group and my health bar was visible to the op as a whole, I was asked Fal'lyn are you in tank spec. (My health was at 22k un buffed and un stimmed.) To which I replied "yes" I was immediatly told i was under geared and both healers left the group. Now correct me if I am wrong but when I broke the content at launch we were clearing HM EV to attain our Rakata gear, not expected to be in it. Simalarly I recently Maxxed my Commando and was excited to find that I had comms for a full set of Tionese Gear. so I qued up for a Regular old HM Flashpoint to maybe get a piece of columi. Again I was told that I was under geared For HM Battle of Ilum. Undergear Really. what the Hell are some of these folks thinking.

OK deep breaths taken. I am calm now.

Pay no heed to those kind of players; if they had any skill and understanding whatsoever, they wouldn't have called you undergeared.

Full Rakata in EV HM is perfectly fine. Free Tionese for a fresh lvl 50 with some lower gear from dailies in a HM flashpoint is also fine, provided you're not doing Kaon. And if you are, the team can still carry you if you're not a total moron, which you aren't, and help you gear.

Undergeared is 11k health tank in HM Kaon. That guy didn't even get his Tionese. Promptly kicked.

Well i only hear OP version of story, so all i can say is, don't let other dictate your game, don't let them discourage you from end game, just ignore those d-bag and move on.

However OP did mention as a dps, he didn't get healed and die, imo for almost all FP HM, if you did everything right, you may take dmg but it won't be enough to kill you, so are you sure you didn't pull mob of tank/stay out of red circle ?

In both cases no healer with brains would waste energy in a futile attempt to try to save a dps like that. And any mocking and ridicule he gets is well deserved. It has nothing to do with gear at that point.

 

I have never seen anyone mock or ridicule or refuse to heal a tionese geared dps who plays smart.

Funny I thought the healers role was to heal. Silly me

 

Sorry, but it does not take 1/2 a brain to know that living dps out damages dead dps.

Actually, mikebevo, Eternalnight is right on this one. While it's true that a living dps out-damages a dead dps, it is also true that a dead idiot dps creates less trouble for the team than a live idiot dps. Therefore, a healer not reviving a dead idiot dps is actually actively mitigating.

That said, I won't heal idiot dps. Oh, I will try to keep them alive but if I see them pulling the same crap over and over again, they're on their own. Same goes for ignoring the suggestions and tips from other party members. You know, stuff like "pls move out of aoe" and the like. Healer's primary concern is keeping the tank alive. Idiot dps that pulls additional aggro and stands in aoe is endangering the group with his actions and such behavior should not be tolerated. Healing them and keeping them alive through their shennanigans does not help anyone. Since you're enabling their bad play, they'll never get any better and will continue their career molesting other people with it.

Hola fellow Adventurers. I must agree that the overall community has become very elitist. I recently Re subbed after an extended away period, and am very disappointed with attitude of those that i find in the ques and pugs. I reasently attempted to take my Full Rakata geared Asassin tank to to a HM EV (for old times sake). I had no interest in gear just an opportunity at comms and maybe some fun. As soon as I accepted the invite to the group and my health bar was visible to the op as a whole, I was asked Fal'lyn are you in tank spec. (My health was at 22k un buffed and un stimmed.) To which I replied "yes" I was immediatly told i was under geared and both healers left the group. Now correct me if I am wrong but when I broke the content at launch we were clearing HM EV to attain our Rakata gear, not expected to be in it. Simalarly I recently Maxxed my Commando and was excited to find that I had comms for a full set of Tionese Gear. so I qued up for a Regular old HM Flashpoint to maybe get a piece of columi. Again I was told that I was under geared For HM Battle of Ilum. Undergear Really. what the Hell are some of these folks thinking.

 

OK deep breaths taken. I am calm now.

It could also mean there is smaller % of skilled players these days, therefore they feel like they need better gear for same things.

I'm talking about DPS that constantly run ahead and aggro everything in a FP.

So you'd rather punish him for his bad play than finish the FP and move on? Doesn't make sense to me. And yes, the HM FPs can be finished even with bad players. It may take a bit longer but it's better than not finishing at all.

It could also mean there is smaller % of skilled players these days, therefore they feel like they need better gear for same things.

However, it is also becoming true that skilled players generally will have a gear progression that is different from true new 50's (as they will be on alts). A good dps alt might be in tionese, but will at the very least pick up a WH barrel/hilt (via comms) and will perhaps have various BoL'd 61/63 gear and crafted 63 mods. Even a true fresh 50 who knows what they are doing will have a 61 pvp barrel/hilt, bm/wh relics, and pvp off pieces. Any less demonstrates a lack of planning or understanding of game mechanics (or ilum glitching). So if you condition on the gear level of the player, you will find a dependence with skill level.

Rotation wise, there are basic common sense errors that are really inexcusable at lvl 50. Things like reapplying dots uselessly or not managing resource should really not be happening (unless you are really overgeared and facerolling).

hmm... i dont think healers or tanks make a differentiation when doing HM flashpoints. its really not an issue for a tionese geared player in those... if you aren't getting heals it might be something else...

Exactly what I thought when reading the post. If you're constantly standing in AOE, pulling before the tank etc then you expect to get vote kicked or the healer to leave you to fend for yourself.

I will often remove a dps from group as tank/heal (or leave myself), but only if they have at least one of the two following problems:

 

1.) Gear: Should be full tionese, and at least recruit in the off pieces. If there are any greens/blues (other than recruit) I will votekick immediately. Wrong spec gear is a similar reason. (same applies with Columi gear for LI)

Give people a chance. I've successfully tanked LI in Tionese with no wipes.

So you'd rather punish him for his bad play than finish the FP and move on? Doesn't make sense to me. And yes, the HM FPs can be finished even with bad players. It may take a bit longer but it's better than not finishing at all.

I guess you've never tanked a FP with someone like that. Yes, you can finish it, but it's no fun at all - constantly chasing down the DPS and trying to grab aggro off everything he's pulled. You might see it as a challenge but I see it as someone deliberately trying to make my life harder or, at best, just not caring what my gaming experience is like. Either way, I don't really want to group with them and, meh, it's a DPS. Vote kick them and a replacement will be along in about three seconds (although I'd always warn them first and give them a chance). Don't get enough votes? Fine, I'll leave... enjoy your one hour wait for another tank!

I guess you've never tanked a FP with someone like that. Yes, you can finish it, but it's no fun at all - constantly chasing down the DPS and trying to grab aggro off everything he's pulled. You might see it as a challenge but I see it as someone deliberately trying to make my life harder or, at best, just not caring what my gaming experience is like. Either way, I don't really want to group with them and, meh, it's a DPS. Vote kick them and a replacement will be along in about three seconds (although I'd always warn them first and give them a chance). Don't get enough votes? Fine, I'll leave... enjoy your one hour wait for another tank!

This.

Although I do extend my vote kicks to bad tanks and healers.

I guess you've never tanked a FP with someone like that. Yes, you can finish it, but it's no fun at all - constantly chasing down the DPS and trying to grab aggro off everything he's pulled. You might see it as a challenge but I see it as someone deliberately trying to make my life harder or, at best, just not caring what my gaming experience is like. Either way, I don't really want to group with them and, meh, it's a DPS. Vote kick them and a replacement will be along in about three seconds (although I'd always warn them first and give them a chance). Don't get enough votes? Fine, I'll leave... enjoy your one hour wait for another tank!

You're right, I never did yet. And I'm glad for it. Just as I am for never being in a group with somebody who would "stand and watch" somebody die. I don't want to play with any of those people.

It's amazing how you're still managing to miss the point of not healing the idiot dps completely.

So the point is?

My point when I enter a flashpoint is to finish it, that's all I care about.

So the point is?

 

My point when I enter a flashpoint is to finish it, that's all I care about.

FPs are such a faceroll that it's never really an issue, however, I've left DPS to die and deliberately not ressed them in (pugged) Ops before. Best example I can think of was a melee DPS on Fabricator in Karaggas Palace, who constantly stood in the fire despite everyone telling him in chat. No way I was gonna ignore the tank to heal through that damage and there was no way I was going to waste my combat res on him just so he could do the same again.

'Understanding that it's good to be an expert' and 'expecting that others are all experts, otherwise they are not worthy of one's time, consideration, respect, or polite treatment' are 2 different things. The more games are designed to be so hard as to make 'proper rotations' and outside game knowledge the difference between beating a scenario and a team wipe, the more this elitist attitude is promoted.

 

I am certainly new to the WoW-esque MMO type, though I do have experience with another MMO, and the more this WoWish kind of gameplay/design is reflected in SWTOR, the less I like it, just my opinion. I'll be voting with my wallet as far as that is concerned - as long as I enjoy the game, I'll be here, but I certainly won't stand around and watch while people like the OP are treated the way he claims while others take a superior attitude because they know the game better - or for any reason, for that matter. A friendly community is more important than some guy's ability to "win".

If you don't like optimization puzzles then you shouldn't be playing MMORPGs, because that's what they are.

It's really that simple.

Not all game genres are for everyone, and that's ok.

FPs are such a faceroll that it's never really an issue, however, I've left DPS to die and deliberately not ressed them in (pugged) Ops before. Best example I can think of was a melee DPS on Fabricator in Karaggas Palace, who constantly stood in the fire despite everyone telling him in chat. No way I was gonna ignore the tank to heal through that damage and there was no way I was going to waste my combat res on him just so he could do the same again.

That's something I understand. I was aiming only at FPs where in 90% of fights it doesn't matter at all who pulls first.

My whole point is that I think it's not appropriate to demand sticking with "fight rules" all the time, even in fights where it's evidently not necessary and makes very little difference, if any.

If you don't like optimization puzzles then you shouldn't be playing MMORPGs, because that's what they are.

 

It's really that simple.

 

Not all game genres are for everyone, and that's ok.

I DO like to optimize my character, and friendly advice on how to optimize my performance are always welcome.

And I understand that if I’m not following advice given in such a manner, that is frustrating to others and isn’t really a good way to play on my part.

What is not welcome is an attitude that someone is better than me at life because they play a game more effectively than I do.

What is not welcome is the idea that it is OK for someone to berate another person because they aren’t an expert at a game.

This is bullying behavior, plain and simple. Having a screen between people does not give them a right to treat each other with any less respect than if they are face to face. “It’s the internet, suck it up” is a little baby’s response to a serious problem.

If this comes across as better-than-thou on my part, so be it. Not everyone knows where to get info like this on the net. Not everyone has the time to do so. And not everyone wants to do so. If you pug, you can *hope* that others are ‘as awesome as you are’ all you want. The minute you *expect* them to be ‘as awesome as you are’, you become a jerk, in my book.

This is my game too, and after a hard day’s work, I don’t need some 14 year old telling me I don’t deserve to be healed because I used Berserk when I should have used Bloodthirst. And I won’t stand around while I watch it happen to another. Real Life gives everyone enough of that selfish bull to go around.

If your enjoyment of the game depends on berating others, just let them know up front in your invites. “LFG,– but I am really awesome and a jerk about it and if you suck, I don’t want to associate with you.”

And thanks - I’ll decide what games are my cup of tea on my own terms.

That's something I understand. I was aiming only at FPs where in 90% of fights it doesn't matter at all who pulls first.

 

My whole point is that I think it's not appropriate to demand sticking with "fight rules" all the time, even in fights where it's evidently not necessary and makes very little difference, if any.

You see, the thing is you might be fine (as DPS) with starting a fight and dealing with the potential consequences of doing so but are you thinking of the tank? Chances are, he enjoys tanking and you're stopping him playing the game as intended. You're also probably annoying the healer who's fighting to keep you up. Your perception might be that "it doesn't matter" but the tank and healers may have had to work twice as hard.

I occassionally run HMs with guildmates and some DPS will chain pull to keep things interesting. The big difference is that we know each other and enjoy the banter that ensues from it. You can't pug like that.

Everything you complain about(valid or otherwise) is ultimately a community issue, but you still tried to pin the blame on the game designers. I take issue with that.

The game designers should be aware of this kind of issue, and work to avoid its proliferation. There are ample examples from other game cultures of the things that make the problem worse, (I'm looking at you, WoW, versus cultures like that of the now defunct City of Heroes), that there is little excuse for not at least addressing the problems of elitism and the situations that exacerbate it.