I'm experimenting with Watchman/Annihilation spec on my Sentinel/Marauder.

I've been playing with various approaches to DoT clipping and priorities as I've leveled, but I haven't had a chance to seriously parse any particular approach compared to another given my constantly changing gear. I'm hoping someone has already worked out the best approach. I'm mostly interested in sustained DPS on a single target for now.

As yet, I don't have annihilate - I imagine this ability will dramatically affect gameplay.

1. Should I use berserk whenever it's up and allow any kind of DoT to consume it? Should I only blow it for 3 stacks of Deadly Saber? I've heard both from successful marauders.

2. In keeping stacks of Deadly Saber on my target, it seems possible to maintain 3 at all times, but only if I utilize non-weapon damage attacks (which feel like a DPS negative) or do funky things with ravage. Is the ideal to keep three stacks floating at all times? Will I gain/lose DPS from getting 3 stacks up as quickly as possible, letting them drop, and reapplying them as quickly as possible?

Is it even possible to continuously maintain 3 stacks of deadly saber? I have only been able to pull it off a couple CDs in a row before I hit a weapon attack too soon.

3. Should I clip the last tick of rupture or let it drop before reapplying?

 

1. Should I use berserk whenever it's up and allow any kind of DoT to consume it? Should I only blow it for 3 stacks of Deadly Saber? I've heard both from successful marauders.

Using Berserk with Deadly Saber will always be do more damage than Berserk with Rupture. Still for the majority of players using Berserk as soon as possible is the right way to go. So use Berserk whenever you have bleeds on your target.

2. In keeping stacks of Deadly Saber on my target, it seems possible to maintain 3 at all times, but only if I utilize non-weapon damage attacks (which feel like a DPS negative) or do funky things with ravage. Is the ideal to keep three stacks floating at all times? Will I gain/lose DPS from getting 3 stacks up as quickly as possible, letting them drop, and reapplying them as quickly as possible?

Is it even possible to continuously maintain 3 stacks of deadly saber? I have only been able to pull it off a couple CDs in a row before I hit a weapon attack too soon.

It is technically possible, but it requires you to not attack every GCD which results in a DPS loss. Just use Deadly Saber on CD and attack as often as possible for max damage.

3. Should I clip the last tick of rupture or let it drop before reapplying?

Don't clip it, just reapply as soon as it ends.

Another thing about berserk:

So long as its on (charge remaining) you are not building fury.

Also, deadly saber ticks every 2 seconds, not every seconds like rupture.

This means if you wanted to spend berserk ONLY on deadly saber you'd have a full rotation without fury building, and most likely would have to delay a rupture.

Not worth the slightly higher damage on DS ticks imo.

Also, deadly saber ticks every 2 seconds, not every seconds like rupture.

Deadly Saber ticks every 1.5s.

This means if you wanted to spend berserk ONLY on deadly saber you'd have a full rotation without fury building, and most likely would have to delay a rupture.

What rotation are you referring to?

Deadly Saber ticks every 1.5s.

 

 

 

What rotation are you referring to?

While not a set rotation you can stil roughly see a pattern between each force jump.

This is somewhat of a rotation, altough you have to watch for procs and rage level to adapt part of it (ex a vicious slash or a regular assault)

Also I'd need to perfectly time it, but it seems to me deadly saber ticks at start, then 2sec, 4 sec and at the end (double damage tick)

It does tick 4 time, but not every 1,5 sec exactly. The 1,5 sec is the refresh timer on it.

At any rate, even if I'm wrong here the points remain.

Just to clarify on how Deadly Saber works:

Tooltip - Charges your lightsabers with deadly energy for 15 seconds, causing your next 3 successful melee attacks to make the target bleed for XXX internal damage over 6 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times. This effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds.

The charge lasts for 15s which means you have 15s to activate 3 melee attacks or the charge disappears. Most of our abilities constitute melee attacks and a charge can only be applied once every GCD. Thus, abilities having multiple hits, like Assault, will still only consume 1 charge.

Next, the internal damage lasts no more than 6s and is triggered no more frequently than once every 1.5s. This effectively means we only get 3 ticks out of the ability.

The XXX internal damage is the total of internal damage of 1 charge of Deadly Saber or 3 ticks of it. Thus, our base bleed damage is actually 1/3 of the tooltip amount. (Incidentally, this is the same base bleed damage as Rupture.)

The tooltip ability does not expressly state that the existing stack is refreshed each time another charge is applied, but it is. This basically means you can extend the existing charge by adding another one.

Assuming you attack every GCD, this ability should do 12x your base bleed damage - One tick @ 1 stack, one tick @ 2 stacks, and 3 ticks @ 3 stacks. This is 6 ticks approximately every 1.5s for a total duration of ~9s.

Plus, any one of these ticks can crit which effectively causes 2X the damage due to our surge and the +30% surge from bleedout.

Just to clarify on how Deadly Saber works:

 

The charge lasts for 15s which means you have 15s to active 3 melee attacks or the charge disappears. A melee attack attack is defined as activating an ability. Despite many of our abilities having multiple hits, like Assault and Ravage, the ability will still only consume 1 charge from any one melee attack.

Further clarification: Ravage actually applies two stacks (one on the first hit and on on the third).

Also I'm not sure what you meant by your definition of a melee attack because on face that just seems totally wrong.

Further clarification: Ravage actually applies two stacks (one on the first hit and on on the third).

 

Also I'm not sure what you meant by your definition of a melee attack because on face that just seems totally wrong.

So I looked back through numerous combat logs, and found one example where Ravage appears to add a stack per GCD. Technically, it looks like Ravage can apply one stack in the first GCD, which is 4 hits - 2 MH + 2 OH. Then it can apply another stack in the 2nd GCD, which is 2 hits - 1 MH & 1 OH. I am going to test this more to confirm.

20:26:08.192 XXX's Deadly Saber adds effect Bleeding (Physical) to Operations Training Dummy.

20:26:08.193 XXX's Bleeding (Physical) critically hits Operations Training Dummy for 625* internal damage, causing 625 threat!

20:26:08.968 XXX's Rupture hits Operations Training Dummy for 619 energy damage, causing 619 threat.

20:26:09.018 XXX's Rupture hits Operations Training Dummy for 82 energy damage, causing 82 threat.

20:26:09.269 XXX's Bleeding (Physical) hits Operations Training Dummy for 303 internal damage, causing 303 threat.

20:26:09.789 XXX activates Ravage.

20:26:09.789 XXX gains Unshakable.

20:26:10.167 XXX's Bleeding (Physical) critically hits Operations Training Dummy for 1250* internal damage, causing 1250 threat!

20:26:10.167 XXX's Ravage hits Operations Training Dummy for 1247 energy damage, causing 1247 threat.

20:26:10.168 XXX's Ravage misses Operations Training Dummy, causing 1 threat.

20:26:10.265 XXX's Bleeding (Physical) critically hits Operations Training Dummy for 625* internal damage, causing 625 threat!

20:26:10.464 XXX's Ravage hits Operations Training Dummy for 1223 energy damage, causing 1223 threat.

20:26:10.464 XXX's Ravage critically hits Operations Training Dummy for 408* energy damage, causing 408 threat!

20:26:11.265 XXX's Bleeding (Physical) critically hits Operations Training Dummy for 625* internal damage, causing 625 threat!

20:26:12.214 XXX's Bleeding (Physical) hits Operations Training Dummy for 303 internal damage, causing 303 threat.

20:26:12.621 XXX's Bleeding (Physical) critically hits Operations Training Dummy for 1876* internal damage, causing 1876 threat!

20:26:12.621 XXX loses Deadly Saber.

20:26:12.621 XXX's Ravage hits Operations Training Dummy for 2360 energy damage, causing 2360 threat.

20:26:12.621 XXX's Ravage hits Operations Training Dummy for 583 energy damage, causing 583 threat.

I use the standard definition of melee taken from the game. I attempted to use words that explained that just because Assault can hit for 3 or more times does not mean that 3 charges of Deadly Saber will be consumed by activating one attack. Sorry for the confusion.

As yet, I don't have annihilate - I imagine this ability will dramatically affect gameplay.

It will. Annihilate changes the entire feel and priority system of the class. It has huge impact on how you build and spend resources per GCD.

1. Should I use berserk whenever it's up and allow any kind of DoT to consume it? Should I only blow it for 3 stacks of Deadly Saber? I've heard both from successful marauders.

In short, yes, use it more-or-less on CD. Actively delaying the buildup and consumption of Fury is DPS-negative. Choosing to wait a very short period of time to align Berserk with 2+ stacks of Deadly Saber's DOT is DPS-positive if the alternative is cooking off all of the stacks on Rupture or 1-stack Deadly Saber.

2. In keeping stacks of Deadly Saber on my target, it seems possible to maintain 3 at all times, but only if I utilize non-weapon damage attacks (which feel like a DPS negative) or do funky things with ravage. Is the ideal to keep three stacks floating at all times? Will I gain/lose DPS from getting 3 stacks up as quickly as possible, letting them drop, and reapplying them as quickly as possible?

 

Is it even possible to continuously maintain 3 stacks of deadly saber? I have only been able to pull it off a couple CDs in a row before I hit a weapon attack too soon.

Once you have Annihilate, using it and Deadly Saber absolutely to CD tends to produce the best, most stable DPS result. Gaining the Rage to do so basically precludes funkiness to keep DS at 3 stacks. You simply can't avoid weapon attacks to generate and spend sufficient Rage, and Force attacks are a massive DPS loss in comparison to Annihilate.

It's theoretically possible to maintain 3 stacks pre-40. It's also theoretically possible post-40 but so DPS negative it isn't worth pursuing.

3. Should I clip the last tick of rupture or let it drop before reapplying?

Let it drop. Rupture is actually your #3 or #4 DPS provider depending on the fight (wavers back and forth depending on ability to use Ravage), so it's not a high priority Rage-spender. It's far more important to maximize use of Deadly Saber and Annihilate. You *will* get Pulverize procs, and occasionally need to track Rupture's DOT to avoid clipping, but it's much less of a concern post-40. Rupture becomes, in effect, high-value filler when you have extra Rage to burn whilst Ravage, Deadly Saber, and Annihilate are on CD.

It will. Annihilate changes the entire feel and priority system of the class.

Yeah, picked it up over the weekend and my playstyle has dramatically changed. Still a little in love.

And thank you for your other responses; they are largely confirmations on what I'm seeing on dummies and in the field, but it's helpful to have my instincts reinforced.

Yeah, picked it up over the weekend and my playstyle has dramatically changed. Still a little in love.

 

And thank you for your other responses; they are largely confirmations on what I'm seeing on dummies and in the field, but it's helpful to have my instincts reinforced.

Annihilation is a very fun spec. It's not ideally suited for all content and the lengthy ramp-up to peak DPS can be infuriating, but it has a nice rhythm to it and a consistency that's a little harder on Carnage and Rage.

It's not excessively onerous to account for the strengths and weaknesses of the spec when it comes to boss fight strategies (and there are only a few instances where it is nigh-on impossible to keep Annihilator rolling regardless of your best efforts), but it can definitely be a bit frustrating when trash-clearing with more movement than actual fighting.

The neat thing about 2.0 is that the core "feel" of both Carnage and Annihilation is preserved, so you have two very viable options... one with a more rhythmic feel (which builds to peak DPS) and one with a frantic, highly chaotic feel (that can throw up huge clumps of damage more or less at the drop of a hat). It's fun to play with both, as they have their own strengths and very different play styles, and it's easy to have a love affair that's more of a menage e trois.

Just to clarify on how Deadly Saber works:

 

 

 

The charge lasts for 15s which means you have 15s to activate 3 melee attacks or the charge disappears. Most of our abilities constitute melee attacks and a charge can only be applied once every GCD. Thus, abilities having multiple hits, like Assault, will still only consume 1 charge.

 

Next, the internal damage lasts no more than 6s and is triggered no more frequently than once every 1.5s. This effectively means we only get 3 ticks out of the ability.

 

The XXX internal damage is the total of internal damage of 1 charge of Deadly Saber or 3 ticks of it. Thus, our base bleed damage is actually 1/3 of the tooltip amount. (Incidentally, this is the same base bleed damage as Rupture.)

 

The tooltip ability does not expressly state that the existing stack is refreshed each time another charge is applied, but it is. This basically means you can extend the existing charge by adding another one.

 

Assuming you attack every GCD, this ability should do 12x your base bleed damage - One tick @ 1 stack, one tick @ 2 stacks, and 3 ticks @ 3 stacks. This is 6 ticks approximately every 1.5s for a total duration of ~9s.

 

Plus, any one of these ticks can crit which effectively causes 2X the damage due to our surge and the +30% surge from bleedout.

The 1,5 sec in the tooltip is not the ticking rate but the rate limit to apply the bleed (reason why Ravage applies 2 ticks and not 3, as 2nd hit is too close to the first one.

The log you posted after also shows a 2nd tick 2 sec after if I read it correctly.

I found that using Berserk when it comes up leads to a better overall dps increase vs. saving it for 3x Deadly stack, which in most cases will have a rupture burning with it. Also, using force type abilities outside of priority rotation abilities will lower your overall dps not to mention causing yourself to be rage starved You could always "cook" your Deadly charges when changing targets which is handy for Hurry/Stop type fights such as Firebrand & Stormcaller, which allows you to run about 8-9 ticks of 3x stack Deadly on a target.

NOTE: You're not able to "cook" Deadly Saber in X-Pac according to how it was working in PTS. The development team had adjusted the refresh lockouts for different casts of Deadly Saber. Example: You have 3x stack of Deadly Saber debuff on target, /cast Deadly Saber, and attempt to refresh the stack which unfortunately doesn't stack until the debuff wears off completely.

The 1,5 sec in the tooltip is not the ticking rate but the rate limit to apply the bleed (reason why Ravage applies 2 ticks and not 3, as 2nd hit is too close to the first one.

 

The log you posted after also shows a 2nd tick 2 sec after if I read it correctly.

@ Verfallen - Deadly Saber ticks more frequently than once every 2s. Here is an excerpt from another log. It is not the best example, but you can still see there are ticks more frequent than every 2s. Interestingly, there is even a tick less than 1.5s apart. The second tab shows excerpts from a different combat log, and it shows the total duration of Deadly Saber. This is much more illuminating data. It shows 36 samples of Deadly Saber. On average the total duration is 9.5s, with the shortest being around 9.1s. During this there are 5 ticks of Deadly Saber - 1 tick @ 1 stacks, 1 tick @ 2 stacks and 3 ticks @ 3 stacks.

I think we have covered all of the important points of Deadly Saber now, right?