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Heals - my fault or not


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K, so . . . my main is a sent, but have a heals spec comando, fresh 50. Just tried to run my first HM FP (false emperor). First pull, I get slammed immediately. Pop defensive CDs, but am just getting slammed. We wipe. Try again, same thing. Am I doing soething wrong? Or am I just a dumb dps who needs to learn to heal? I know the instance -- I mean, this was the first pull (though no one seemed to think it necessary to cc one of the big droids). Tried to sorta los, but I'm pulling aggro immediately (not shooting at anything, had time for one or two heals before MDK)

 

I'm used to dps, and I've healed normal FPs. But when I've dpsed a HM, I have never pulled that much aggro rught at the start.

 

Anyway -- advce?

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Sounds like a bad group to me. Here's why:

 

1) No CCs.

2) No aoe taunt by the tank to pick up stragglers

3) No taunt to pick things OFF you.

4) No dps trying to in-fight CC to stop things from eating you or at least them melting their faces to make them look at them INSTEAD of you.

 

I'd just shrug it off and move on. I've had groups like that before. Try not to let em bug you. =)

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Hi im really new at this. Im a Healer and when first doing Hard Modes it can be painfull!! What u describe happened many times. Its a combo of bad group and lots of fresh 50s. Really nobodies fault unless there were geared peeps with exp. The Exp. players will tell u what to do. They know these runs inside and out.

After a while i got better gear and things start 2 fall into place. Then i stopped feeling like every wipe was my fault. It takes time and healing really has little social reward 4 all the hard work.

I know exactly what ur feeling. Before u know it youll b seeing from afar that not all wipes are caused because of healer. Trust me it gets better.

Also the speed at which peeps run these makes it very hard to learn and keep up.

Edited by mcslack
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K, so . . . my main is a sent, but have a heals spec comando, fresh 50. Just tried to run my first HM FP (false emperor). First pull, I get slammed immediately. Pop defensive CDs, but am just getting slammed. We wipe. Try again, same thing. Am I doing soething wrong? Or am I just a dumb dps who needs to learn to heal? I know the instance -- I mean, this was the first pull (though no one seemed to think it necessary to cc one of the big droids). Tried to sorta los, but I'm pulling aggro immediately (not shooting at anything, had time for one or two heals before MDK)

 

I'm used to dps, and I've healed normal FPs. But when I've dpsed a HM, I have never pulled that much aggro rught at the start.

 

Anyway -- advce?

 

I assume you have the base tionese/recruit mk2 gear on?

I've not noticed any problems in healing HM fps since they were nerfed.

Let the tank pull before you cc (if you need to cc) and keep your trauma probe on him for the ~2 secs it takes to cc.

 

Hi im really new at this. Im a Healer and when first doing Hard Modes it can be painfull!! What u describe happened many times. Its a combo of bad group and lots of fresh 50s. Really nobodies fault unless there were geared peeps with exp. The Exp. players will tell u what to do. They know these runs inside and out.

After a while i got better gear and things start 2 fall into place. Then i stopped feeling like every wipe was my fault. It takes time and healing really has little social reward 4 all the hard work.

I know exactly what ur feeling. Before u know it youll b seeing from afar that not all wipes are caused because of healer. Trust me it gets better.

Also the speed at which peeps run these makes it very hard to learn and keep up.

 

Well as a healer there isnt much you need to do if the group is racing to finish it, just keep the tank and yourself at full health (and watch powertechs/vanguards who might pull agro) and if everyone else is running on and attacking stuff without topping up their health first feel free to let them die without feeling guilty.

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First off ... you basically died due to aggro mechanics and the fact that a lot of people don't know about them.

 

The thread generated by healing is distributed among all opponents in fight, whereas thread from damage is only applied to the npc(s) that actually took it. Taunts guaranttee aggro for a few seconds and after those the normal thread table decides who is the next target.

 

If a mob group is is relatively large chances are high that a few mobs neither have been taunted nor have taken damage.

So even with the slightest heal you do, you're the the lonely inhabitant of their thread list.

 

In a well prepared pull this should not be a problem and you would rarely have the aggro of even a single mob.

Problem is, preparatiion of pulls in GF runs is often ... lets say ... suboptimal :D.

 

When running with a good group you should experince far less problems.

This begins with knowing what to CC while the tank opens the fight. Out of stealth CCs will of course be applied before that.

It continues with the Tank pulling the aggro in a most optimal way using his AOE taunt and attacks.

The DPS should know what to take down first. At the beginning these are usually the taunted normal mobs.

This should only leave a few remaining threads to control.

 

Of course there are certain bosses that have random aggro, aggro resets, random attacks...

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What I've noticed in the False Emperor FP is ...

 

1) People take the mid droid head on instead of ignoring it and having one less big mob to worry about,

2) DPS do not bother with weak/normal mobs scattered throughout the group and they rape the healer,

3) Some wiseguy using AoE and breaking cc's,

4) Ranged classes stay at the back eventually picking up aggro from the patrolling droid to the right.

 

If a few of these PUG festivities happen at the same time, ... :D

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It's always the healer's fault :rolleyes:

 

Joking aside, when I had these groups I just vanish and watch them die, they'll learn from that. Though it's not really an option with your class. Talk to the group, if they don't comply, bail.

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First off ... you basically died due to aggro mechanics and the fact that a lot of people don't know about them.

 

The thread generated by healing is distributed among all opponents in fight, whereas thread from damage is only applied to the npc(s) that actually took it. Taunts guaranttee aggro for a few seconds and after those the normal thread table decides who is the next target.

 

If a mob group is is relatively large chances are high that a few mobs neither have been taunted nor have taken damage.

So even with the slightest heal you do, you're the the lonely inhabitant of their thread list.

 

In a well prepared pull this should not be a problem and you would rarely have the aggro of even a single mob.

Problem is, preparatiion of pulls in GF runs is often ... lets say ... suboptimal :D.

 

When running with a good group you should experince far less problems.

This begins with knowing what to CC while the tank opens the fight. Out of stealth CCs will of course be applied before that.

It continues with the Tank pulling the aggro in a most optimal way using his AOE taunt and attacks.

The DPS should know what to take down first. At the beginning these are usually the taunted normal mobs.

This should only leave a few remaining threads to control.

 

Of course there are certain bosses that have random aggro, aggro resets, random attacks...

 

The TL;DR version of this is correct. Healers pull aggro from everything, your DPS didn't hit the stuff the tank couldn't pick up so it killed you. You can try your aggro dump, but it probably won't work.

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nerfed bosses or not the trash in many of these HM can still be challenging to new 50s when not cced. even with free beginner 50 gear the trash still needs to be cced in some encounters with such geared key role players.
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Couple different possibilities there that most of the previous posters covered. I know when I tank most HM FPs I usually ignore the normals in a given pack of trash and I only worry about holding the silvers and up because the normals should die so fast any damage they do to the healer should be negligible. Assuming the DPS is not derpy and understand the basic rule of killing weakest to strongest. Sadly this is not usually the case and I usually save my group taunt for those cases when the DPS decides to ingore the weak ones to peel them off the healer and kill them myself. It's possible the tank had the same expectation and your DPS didn't deliver.

 

Or the tank was derpy, or worse, everyone but you was derpy.

 

Ultimately though it was anything but your fault. You pulled aggro due to your heals, that can happen sometimes due to how spread out the trash is in some areas of them, but it's not anything that can't be managed if players are willing to use their brain for even a second and talk a little. Which seemingly of late fewer and fewer are willing to do.

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The Tank is not guarding you is the issue, not only does guard reduce the damage you take it also greatly reduces the aggro you pull, and healing aggro is pretty big, especially if your taking on 5-6 mobs.

 

Always make sure the Tank has Guard on you....

 

The other issues are usually tank related like the Tank not using his taunts.... We ran SM EC the other night and the pug tank didn't even know he had taunts so he wasn't using them... Thats the problem with a MMO that lets you solo pretty much all the way to 50.

 

The only time a Tank shouldn't guard you is during a Boss fight, then he guards the hardest hitting DPS so he won't pull the boss from him, but for all trash pulls make sure the healer is guarded.

Edited by Monoth
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As a fresh 50 healer I would stick right behind the tank. The reason I started doing this was so when dps used AOE, the mobs attacking me got splash damage and started attacking them dps forcing to kill the mobs that were attacking me. Sorry dps, I don't blame the tank, I have never seen a healer die in trash pulls when I have been on dps or when I have been on my healer in guild runs. Follow kill order and healer lives, healer lives tank lives. Both healer and tank live we win. Group winning is more important to me than HUGE DPS numbers for a individual.

 

Oh and it is always the healers fault for a wipe, unless I am on dps, then the wipe is dps fault. I always think a wipe is my fault no matter my role or the skill of the group. There is always something I could have done differently and better.

Edited by mikebevo
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The Tank is not guarding you is the issue, not only does guard reduce the damage you take it also greatly reduces the aggro you pull, and healing aggro is pretty big, especially if your taking on 5-6 mobs.

 

Always make sure the Tank has Guard on you....

 

The other issues are usually tank related like the Tank not using his taunts.... We ran SM EC the other night and the pug tank didn't even know he had taunts so he wasn't using them... Thats the problem with a MMO that lets you solo pretty much all the way to 50.

 

The only time a Tank shouldn't guard you is during a Boss fight, then he guards the hardest hitting DPS so he won't pull the boss from him, but for all trash pulls make sure the healer is guarded.

 

This is not correct. It would take a totally derpy tank to allow a healer to pull aggro on something he has aggro on. The only mobs that will be attacking the healer are ones that were not picked up by anyone at all, so reduced threat will not help if you have the only threat. Guard is much better used on the top DPS who may actually pull aggro from a mob that the tank is trying to hold onto. There are very few fights where guarding the healer is the right move and none of them are a part of a FP.

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To repeat for emphasis: never ever guard a healer. Guarding a healer is a sign of a bad tank who doesn't understand how threat works.

 

@OP: You had a bad tank, plain and simple. If this happens again, I suggest telling the tank to do a better job at AOE threat.

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One thing that you can employ as a healer to combat this kind of thing happening is having some delay in your healing. Wait until the tank is approaching 40% or so (taking into you account your gear and the tank's of course) before you begin healing, in the hopes that even if mobs do start to come for you, they will be taken care of as the group finishes off the first set of mobs.
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What I've noticed in the False Emperor FP is ...

 

2) DPS do not bother with weak/normal mobs scattered throughout the group and they rape the healer

 

I keep seeing lately both DPS focusing on the tank's main target, and leaving the rest of the mobs free to do whatever. Kind of wish the Tionese gear came with a "how to" guide.

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This is not correct. It would take a totally derpy tank to allow a healer to pull aggro on something he has aggro on. The only mobs that will be attacking the healer are ones that were not picked up by anyone at all, so reduced threat will not help if you have the only threat. Guard is much better used on the top DPS who may actually pull aggro from a mob that the tank is trying to hold onto. There are very few fights where guarding the healer is the right move and none of them are a part of a FP.

 

Read my statement, I said DURING TRASH PULLS WITH MULTIPLE MOBS, the tank can't keep aggro on everything so of course the healer is going to pull aggro unless he is guarded. A good tank will use a AOE taunt to grab the mobs attention but unless the healer is guarded he will just pull ALL the trash to him... A DPS is attacking ONE target so if he gets the aggro of this one mob no biggy if the DPS is any good he will have this trash mob dead in no time flat... The healer on the other hand being pummeled by 4-5 mobs is not going to last long.

 

I've played a Tank, Healer and DPS in HM Asastion and Nightmare Denova, I do believe i have a bit more knowledge then a person who only has played a DPS.

 

Not to mention how are you going to guard ALL the DPS ?!? you only have one guard, The ONLY time you guard a DPS is during the Boss fight to keep him from pulling off of you PERIOD...

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Threat dumps and guards do absolutely nothing for healers (except for the small damage reduction provided by guard). As Vanarion mentioned earlier in the thread, healing induces a small amount of threat in all enemies, while dealing damage only induces threat in the enemies hit.

 

The upshot is that any enemy that is attacked by the DPS or tank will attack them back. Any enemy who is not engaged by a dps or tank will attack the healer. Having a guard or threat dump will not change that, since you're the only one inducing threat on those enemies, and reducing the amount of threat will not change anything. Until they are attacked by someone who does damage, they will focus all their energy on the healer. As soon as they are attacked, they will forget the healer.

 

What most likely happened (since that's what happens most often) is that the DPS failed to do their job. The DPS should be picking off the weak enemies first, while the tank holds the strong ones. What often happens in inexperienced groups, however, is that the DPS leap in and attack whatever the tank is attacking. That leaves every other opponent to plink away at the healer, forcing the healer to spend all their heals on themselves.

 

That's only a guess of course. There are a lot of things that can go wrong in trash pulls. Wandering mobs can drop by and complicate things (and there are two wandering mobs that can do that in the first FE pull). The initial burst of damage can really stress the healer, since enemies tend to unload their biggest attacks first, and whoever pulls cops everything. Players can fail to cc or break ccs through ignorance or accident. Players could just be bad at their jobs.

 

Essentially, for a trash pull to go as smoothly as possible, these things should happen:

1. Any wandering mobs that can join the fight should be cleared.

2. Any enemies that are to be cc'd should be marked by people who can cc them. Every class in the game except juggernauts/guardians and powertech/vanguard has some form of cc.

3. The tank should pull. Don't lead with the ccs. The tanks pull first, then cc immediately. Whoever initiates the fight is going to have every enemy unloading on them, and you want that to be the tank.

4. The tank should focus on holding the strongest enemies.

5. The dps should focus on killing the weakest enemies first, and work their way up to the strongest.

6. The healer should hang at the back and do their best to keep everyone alive, with priority on the tank.

Edited by SleepyKing
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My main is a Commando healer so I know exactly what you went through.

Bottom line as other posters mentioned... You had a bad tank and bad DPS. My other too. Is a tank and being a healer first has helped me become a better tank. A tank first and greatest priority is to gather agro on all targets not CCed. If a DPS pulls agro off in a trash group, no big deal, but the tank should ALWAYS have an eye on the healer and quickly taunt or attack mobs off the healer ASAP. If this breaks down or the tank can't hold all the agro the DPS should help pull mobs off healer.

 

Further more, while this is not directly your "fault" there is some things that you can do to help avoid this.

- put trauma probe on your self in a FP untill your gear level improves. This will help survivabity. When your gear improves put it on the tank.

- Avoid dropping Advanced medical probe or medical probe as your first heal. They generate a lot of agro. Try throwing a few bursts of hammer shot on the tank while he and the DPS generate agro... THEN drop AMP and MP as needed.

- Don't forget your skills! Use diversion religiously. It helps drop your agro on mobs near you, often completely. Also as you mentioned , you have your defensive shield, but you also have other skills to be used...

- Adrenalin rush- a small Self HOT that may be just enough to keep you alive.

- Concussion charge- AOES knockback. Don't over use this as it will not help with agro but could buy valuable time.

- Cryo grenade- stun at least 1 mob and keep them off you.

- tech override followed by concussive bolt- insta cast your CC on a blue or gold star mob attacking you.

- kill them your self- as commandos we have some of the best AoEs, drop them all on the mobs and if you don't have ammo left you can pop emergency reserve cell.

In the end... A halfway decent group should not let this happen.

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Read my statement, I said DURING TRASH PULLS WITH MULTIPLE MOBS, the tank can't keep aggro on everything so of course the healer is going to pull aggro unless he is guarded.

 

...

I just have to comment on this as I think you're confused about threat mechanics.

 

When a dps or tank attacks a mob, the damage goes into the threat table of that particular mob. If aoe abilities are used, threat is built on multiple mobs at the same time. When a healer heals anybody, healer threat is added to EVERY mob in the fight.

 

If there are mobs that nobody is attacking, then the ONLY player building threat is the healer. It doesn't matter if guard is on reducing threat, the healer will STILL be at the top of the threat table as he's not competing with any other player for aggro.

 

Tanks with aoe attacks can manage threat on multiple targets. Taunts will put the tank back at the top of the aggro table for every mob affected by the taunt. DPS can attack mobs and gain threat. All of these things keep the healer safe.

 

Do you follow? Even if you guard the healer, he will draw aggro from any mob that didn't get attacked by the tank or dps. Conversely, if the tank and dps are attacking the mobs, the healer threat is insignificant by comparison.

 

The group at the start of False Emperor has two big droids, two sith and a handful of normals (don't remember how many). No matter what your group makeup, you will always be able to CC at least one of those mobs. The dps can clean up the weak mobs in seconds, and any tank worth anything can easily keep aggro on 3 mobs until the dps get there.

 

It's not like you're hurting anything by putting the guard on the healer. But thinking you're somehow helping is silly.

 

Edit: I've also healed that fight and been killed before. Let's look at the wrong way to do that fight:

 

1. Tank opens with a taunt, lulwhut?

2. DPS aoe the CC'ed mobs breaking them.

3. One dps has gold fever.

4. The other is attacking whatever the tank attacks.

5. The healer gets attacked by one of the Sith.

6. Healer tries to kite the Sith towards the tank, who doesn't notice or whose taunts are on CD.

7. Three normals aggro on the healer.

8. Everything goes to pot.

9. Blame the healer.

Edited by Khevar
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