I want to talk a little about entitlement or the feeling thereof. I've heard a lot of people who answer complaints call said users "People who feel entitled but who actually are not" or some other version of this. While I understand, of course, this is Bioware's game and in a way, we as the users, are not entitled to have things be any other way other than theirs. This line of thinking, I believe is wrong and here's why.

 

1. BW is a creator of a product. This is the original game of SWTOR to which we owe no sense of entitlement. This was the vision of the developers and creators and it's entirely their product to make and say "Here. Take it and like it" Which many people did, myself included.

 

2. BW/EA is the creator of a service. Most MMOs require service to maintain and expand the game. An MMO must maintain a "fresh" feeling amongst its users. Without continual advancement of new concepts and content, the game would stagnate just like every single-player video game ever created. Ask yourself, how long you can play a single player game for without getting bored and moving on to the next? The answer, in industry terms, is about a month or two, depending on various factors.

 

It's this second point that allows us, as the customer, to dictate where we would like to see the game go. It's our interest in the original product that keeps this game going. Therefore, its in their best interests to make the broad amount of players happy or they will leave - Just as they did before F2P came out. People like to say the forums are the vast minority. Maybe in WoW this was true. Not in this game, or so I have noticed. Most of the complaints or arguments presented here are the same ones I see talked about in General and Guild chat. Maybe the forum users a bit more zealous about it, but the end result is the same: If the customer is not happy, they will not play.

 

TL/DR The sense of entitlement is justified.

Edited August 27, 2013 by AGSThomas

I'm not going to say that the forums are a vast minority when it comes to certain topics...

 

...but the forums do represent a very small fraction of actual players.

Edited August 27, 2013 by VitalityPrime

I

TL/DR The sense of entitlement is justified.

 

Nope. Never. Needs to Stop.

I'm not going to say that the forums are a vast minority when it comes to certain topics...

 

...but the forums do represent a very small fraction of actual players.

 

I disagree. I hear the same topics being discussed in general and guild chat. For example, our Off Tank is a sin. Hes not a forum user, but took one look at the patch notes and unsubbed. Most of the big arguments on here are shared by a chunk of the player base. Certainly not the small stuff like "MY LIGHTSABRE DOESN"T HAVE THE RIGHT AMOUNT OF GREEN BW LOL" But on huge balance issues or bugs, yes lot of people know about them.

 

Why do you think so many people left before F2P. They certainly weren't all forum users...

I do not think it matters either way. There is no way for players who have no access to these forums to express their sense of entitlement in any way. Edited August 27, 2013 by ELRunninW

Entitlement is the number one misused word on BioWare forums. People argue over its definition and application, and the whole thing has the unfortunate effect of smokescreening bad game design choices.

TL/DR The sense of entitlement is justified.

 

No, it isn't and your reasoning doesn't really justify that entitlement.

 

Every single player is entitled to their opinion and the things mentioned in the ToS - nothing less and nothing more. We are paying for very specific things and we can choose to end our subscription at any moment.

EA/BW is entitled to run their game the way they deem best.

 

If you ask 10 different forum users/players what they would like to see added/changed, you would hear 10 different opinions some of which would definitely contradict some of the others.

 

Entitlement is when someone thinks THEIR opinion is de facto the best "for the game's longevity" when in most cases it's (at best) just a personal preference. If you ask a PVPer you'll hear the game needs more PVP elements, if you ask a casual player you'll hear the game needs more solo-player stuff, if you ask a raider you'll hear complaints about rehashed content, if you ask a SWG fan you'll hear the game will die without Pazaak and so on and so forth.

 

It's EA/BW's job to determine what is best for the game and the way they will move on with it.

If they do it right, the game will thrive. If they get it wrong, the game will die. End of story.

 

Asking for things that are not part of your "contract" with someone is entitlement.

They might decide to give them to you if they consider them to be in their best interest in the long run, but they are in no way obligated to do so.

Edited August 27, 2013 by TheNahash

Entitlement is the number one misused word on BioWare forums. People argue over its definition and application, and the whole thing has the unfortunate effect of smokescreening bad game design choices.

 

Ding ding. We have a winner.

 

An MMO should have many months, if not years of playable content.

 

The fact that TOR (or any other MMO) can be compared directly to any solo game in terms of length of play is a giant red flag that the game is not designed as an MMO.

 

"Entitlement" is one of those ******** political buzzwords used to denigrate and insult those with opposing views. It has lots of syllables so those who use it must be smart!

Ding ding. We have a winner.

 

The fact that TOR (or any other MMO) can be compared directly to any solo game in terms of length of play is a giant red flag that the game is not designed as an MMO.

 

Yes 8 unique "single player" stories, and two classes per story, along with 3 different trees per class as well as 3 different "options per story" (light/dark/neutral) make this a true single player game that is played once and never picked up again.

Ding ding. We have a winner.

 

An MMO should have many months, if not years of playable content.

 

The fact that TOR (or any other MMO) can be compared directly to any solo game in terms of length of play is a giant red flag that the game is not designed as an MMO.

 

"Entitlement" is one of those ******** political buzzwords used to denigrate and insult those with opposing views. It has lots of syllables so those who use it must be smart!

 

It was a painfully effective word in deflecting criticisms of Mass Effect 3's shoehorned multiplayer, storyline endings, and devaluation of "choices that mattered" in previous games most of all. I'm upset that the word is still in their toolkit.

Yes 8 unique "single player" stories, and two classes per story, along with 3 different trees per class as well as 3 different "options per story" (light/dark/neutral) make this a true single player game that is played once and never picked up again.

 

Playing the Operative twice, once as concealment in beta & again as lethality in release was not a refeshingly different experience. There's replayability to a point, but not 48 unique playthroughs accounting for every iteration of talent trees. Yes, there's a difference levelling healer over DPS. Arguably there's no reason to replay a class twice unless you want to treat a companion like Vette differently(if you class even has one). I never wanted to play all 8 stories, just like I never wanted to play every gender/race/social point of Dragon Age 1. It's fair to judge the game on one complete playthrough.

Only if you believe the customer is always right. Some customers are stupid and demand the most outrageous things and expect them immediately and chuck a tantrum if they don't get it. These are the customers that should be ignored. I prefer that they get fired out torpedo launch tube into the vaccuum of space where they implode.

TL/DR The sense of entitlement is justified.

 

1) As players, we are entitled to play the game under the game producers conditions, features, rules, and commercial requirements for as long as we choose to do so and are not banned from the game.

 

2) As players, we are free to choose not to play the game at any time, for any reason, for as long as we choose.

 

3) As players, we are entitled to return to the game and play it again if we so choose at a later date.

 

That is the full extent of player entitlement in MMOs. True Story.

 

SENSE of entitlement by some players =/= actual player entitlement to play an MMO.

 

This concludes a surface exploration of reality vs fantasy in the context of players playing MMOs.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Andryah

Your whole post begs the question of whether Bioware wants you to keep playing. I'm not sure they do. Players go through their own cycles. Just to keep it simple, a player starts out as a newbie who does not understand the game. The amount of newbieness varies, of course, depending on whether the player is completely new to mmorpgs or just new to this game.

 

After playing awhile a player becomes an experienced player, a journeyman who knows how to play the game, has explored a goodly percentage of it, and has reached so-called "end-game" with one or more characters. In the third stage a player gains expertise. He is VERY good at the game and begins exploring the nuances. This is when a player discovers that certain classes are "out of balance" or that +20% XP is actually +18.5% XP because of a basic math mistake. And of you allowed a shorter cool down for Death from Above that would counter the advanced AOE attack of a Sith Marauder, which is otherwise unfair. And, BTW, if you changed the skill tree of a hybrid BH, then this would provide a 1% bonus rate for blah.

 

In short, you become a pain in the butt. You are so skilled that you have narrowed your focus to minutiae that, if the developers actually paid attention to you, would effectively ruin the game because they would be paying attention to these non-essential items no one cares about instead of the experience of the journeyman level players, the vast majority of whom don't really care about these issues. Nobody cares how many angels fit on the head of a pin. They care about a new planet.

 

But you complain about it loudly and vociferously as if your louder voice entitles you (there's that word again) to a greater say in how the game ought to change and be run. In short, you think pretty highly of your expertise and can't understand why the developers don't hang on your every pronouncement, and perhaps wash your feet at the same time. In acting this way you have essentially priced yourself out of the market.

 

I think this situation comes about because of a misunderstanding of the phrase, "The Customer is always right." This has been used to browbeat and harass providers of products for centuries. The amount of abuse taken by just retailers alone is legendary, but it is a misperception. The phrase means, "The Customer knows what he wants to buy" so if you don't have it, he will go elsewhere.

 

And I think that's okay. A lot of SWTOR fans don't seem to understand where they are in the SWTOR Life Cycle. They seem to feel that they are going to be around forever and when they retire, forever more. They don't seem to realize what comes after "end game" is something else that is "not here." To think that the Expert Level player can be satisfied with this game for years to come is completely unrealistic. The developers need to realize this as well and not get sucked into interminable arguments on the number of angels on the head of a pin. They are prone to do this, too, because they are, after all, experts in how this game works.

 

What the developers SHOULD do (imho) is think of the player base as a moving target of people cycling through the stages where there are always newbies entering and always the experts who have reached end of game leaving. The concentration ought to be on making sure people make this trip from newbie to journeyman find the trip enjoyable.

 

In other words, it's okay to quit.

1) As players, we are entitled to play the game under the game producers conditions, features, rules, and commercial requirements for as long as we choose to do so and are not banned from the game.

 

2) As players, we are free to choose not to play the game at any time, for any reason, for as long as we choose.

 

3) As players, we are entitled to return to the game and play it again if we so choose at a later date.

 

That is the full extent of player entitlement in MMOs. True Story.

 

SENSE of entitlement by some players =/= actual player entitlement to play an MMO.

 

This concludes a surface exploration of reality vs fantasy in the context of players playing MMOs.

 

Stop trying to be a master linguist and have the last word. "Entitlement" has a dictionary definition and anything beyond that is posturing and pointless wordsmithing that distracts from real issues, like the state of Assassins. Posting your personal idea of "entitlement" is a major perception problem.

Yes 8 unique "single player" stories, and two classes per story, along with 3 different trees per class as well as 3 different "options per story" (light/dark/neutral) make this a true single player game that is played once and never picked up again.

 

That's the marketing spin version.

 

The reality though is slightly different.

 

- There's 1 single railroad track per faction in TOR. It starts with 2 spur lines (force user, non-force user) that converge at planet #2 and stay linked till the end. 90+% of all stations (missions) on that line are identical, no matter which of the 4 classes per faction you are.

 

- Gameplay for all classes is near identical. It's ultra-easy godmode for all. Which tree you pick is going to make near zero difference in any solo PvE. Whatever you sacrifice, you have a companion to make up the slack.

 

- There are no racial differences. All races are identical to each other in all respects except cosmetics.

 

- Light/dark/neutral choices make no difference to anything except dialog options and emails from NPC's with a coupon for a buck off a Space Big Mac.

. It's fair to judge the game on one complete playthrough.

 

See thats where things tend to fall apart. You get a sense of the game maybe as far as leveling, overall feel. But to say it was one and done is to leave alot of the content undefined. Playing as a Counselor (arguably one of the least involved stories) and NEVER playing either a JK or Operative (some of the Best stories) is not sufficient to say you can call it a one and done.

 

I too played DA:O just about every class with different endings and romances. And there was some commonality, but each time it still felt fairly unique enough to keep things fresh.

 

If you never play any of the other classes you are missing out on the very best parts of the game. The Stories.

Stop trying to be a master linguist and have the last word. "Entitlement" has a dictionary definition and anything beyond that is posturing and pointless wordsmithing that distracts from real issues, like the state of Assassins. Posting your personal idea of "entitlement" is a major perception problem.

 

REread my post, in the context of an MMO... not Websters.

 

You are confusing "entitlement" with "sense of entitlement". I do not know if that is deliberate on your part or not. But there is a difference between what you are entitled to in playing an MMO and what your "sense of entitlement" is. They are different. You have consumer and commercial rights to the first, you have no rights to the second.. only feelings. The feelings are yours.. and they carry no commercial or consumer rights.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Andryah

There's Entitlement, Sense of Entitlement, and False Sense of Entitlement. Nothing wrong with the first two.

snip

 

If they are not to listen to the skilled players then why do they create content for them? What's the point of NiM, which is supposed to require mastery of your class, if the problems that it exposes are not to be fixed, because the average player doesn't care?

Edited August 27, 2013 by MillionsKNives

 

In short, you become a pain in the butt. You are so skilled that you have narrowed your focus to minutiae that, if the developers actually paid attention to you, would effectively ruin the game because they would be paying attention to these non-essential items no one cares about instead of the experience of the journeyman level players, the vast majority of whom don't really care about these issues. Nobody cares how many angels fit on the head of a pin. They care about a new planet.

 

And I think that's okay. A lot of SWTOR fans don't seem to understand where they are in the SWTOR Life Cycle. They seem to feel that they are going to be around forever and when they retire, forever more. They don't seem to realize what comes after "end game" is something else that is "not here." To think that the Expert Level player can be satisfied with this game for years to come is completely unrealistic. The developers need to realize this as well and not get sucked into interminable arguments on the number of angels on the head of a pin. They are prone to do this, too, because they are, after all, experts in how this game works.

 

What the developers SHOULD do (imho) is think of the player base as a moving target of people cycling through the stages where there are always newbies entering and always the experts who have reached end of game leaving. The concentration ought to be on making sure people make this trip from newbie to journeyman find the trip enjoyable.

 

In other words, it's okay to quit.

 

It matters how many angels fit on the head of a pin, because I may want to buy the cartel shrink, make an angel, and go to Pinhead Planet, and if I do I want to know how many other pinhead angel experts will be there with me with higher DPS to gank me while I try to finish that stupid weekly to collect elite rancor turds in the heroic 4 area.

 

Retention is important, the game is already set up as a revolving door with the launch content, but they're going to eventually run of players who are satisfied with the door and have a building not worth shopping in.

 

I post what I think needs to be fixed, because if it got fixed, I'd be in game longer and encourage my friends to be too. I want a sci-fi Star Wars game to be great, not mediocre. It's NOT okay to quit.

REread my post, in the context of an MMO... not Websters.

 

You are confusing "entitlement" with "sense of entitlement". I do not know if that is deliberate on your part or not. But there is a difference between what you are entitled to in playing an MMO and what your "sense of entitlement" is. They are different. You have consumer and commercial rights to the first, you have no rights to the second.. only feelings. The feelings are yours.. and they carry no commercial or consumer rights.

 

Most of you are missing the point of the post. The point is, The customer is always right and if BW wants to keep its subscribers it had better start listening to those players who are entitled to leave, because they are and will continue in droves if they feel they aren't being represented. Just like they did from Start to F2P.

 

Again - If we accept the phrase "The customer is always right" then by extension "The customer is entitled"

I love people who use the word "entitled" incorrectly...that's pretty much EVERYONE on these forums who uses it.

I disagree that the stories are similar and that different classes play the same. That's why I'm still going through the class stories after a year and a half playing this game. That's why I'm still trying to master every skill tree or hybrid a class has to offer. DPSing an operation is vastly different to tanking an operation to healing one. PvPing as an Operative is different from PvPing as a Juggernaut. If you have a short attention span then the game shouldn't be made to cater to these players because they don't stick around long enough to appreciate the game. It's just another game to them, just like the other 100 games they've played before that. I don't burn through games, I take my time and stick with the ones I enjoy the most.

The problem with building the average chair is that ithe average chair doesn't perfectly fit anyone. No one is average.

 

The same can be said about anything that is built for the masses. This game isn't really tailored for the individual....it's tailored to attract a multitude of players. It offers a lot of different forms of entertainment. PVE, PVP, space missions, completionist content, leveling content, interchangeble uniform pieces, interactive dialogue, and so on. All of which is built for the average player.

 

Maybe we can get something that is individually tailorable to the level that everyone desires. However, I don't think that any MMO can say that every part of their content is 100% individually tailorable.