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Warrior storyline - spoilers!!


xMegrinx

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The, ah, Quinncident has probably caused more drama on this forum than any other part of any storyline in the game. So yeah, I'd say that a lot of people were annoyed by it.

 

Famously, during beta it was possible to kill Quinn for his transgressions, but that option was removed after people started whining about how they didn't realize that killing Quinn meant losing their companion healer. Brainless idiots. What could have been...

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The, ah, Quinncident has probably caused more drama on this forum than any other part of any storyline in the game. So yeah, I'd say that a lot of people were annoyed by it.

 

Famously, during beta it was possible to kill Quinn for his transgressions, but that option was removed after people started whining about how they didn't realize that killing Quinn meant losing their companion healer. Brainless idiots. What could have been...

 

I would pay 1 million cartel coins for the option to killing him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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At the very least, it'd have been nice if the game recognised that the player had taken the dialogue response to tell him it's over between them, if they did. Not that having him propose as soon as we were back on the ship wasn't hilarious. Edited by Bleeters
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The, ah, Quinncident has probably caused more drama on this forum than any other part of any storyline in the game. So yeah, I'd say that a lot of people were annoyed by it.

 

Famously, during beta it was possible to kill Quinn for his transgressions, but that option was removed after people started whining about how they didn't realize that killing Quinn meant losing their companion healer. Brainless idiots. What could have been...

 

Mind you, also during beta, you had companion kits that could switch a companions role, but that was taken out, and this followed.

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After finally getting to the point where Quinn Backstabs you, I actually feel for the guy. He was "saved" by Darth Porkchop after being blamed for doing his job. There was a huge amount of loyalty there because of that. Quinn also wants the empire to succeed and Darth Muffintop has proven over and over to be the type of person who gets things done, and is movie the empire forward.

 

Then he has his loyalties to you, which while much shorter compared to Baras are also very strong. He even expresses regret and that Darth Wideload forced his hand and he never wanted to have to pick between the two of you, but when it came down to it he picked his old loyalty over his new loyalty.

 

I'm not saying I would have made the same choice, but I felt for the guy. A sword can not be wielded by two masters and while he was traveling with you he was your masters guy first.

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I agree, but by the time you can marry Quinn haven't you already been backstabbed by Baras? Or am I wrong there? And if I'm right...maybe he shouldn't go marrying someone who's the enemy of his real master.

 

I should've kicked him off my ship and let him float around in space for a while. Jerk.

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I agree, but by the time you can marry Quinn haven't you already been backstabbed by Baras? Or am I wrong there? And if I'm right...maybe he shouldn't go marrying someone who's the enemy of his real master.

 

I should've kicked him off my ship and let him float around in space for a while. Jerk.

 

It totally depends on how you raise your affection level with him. Most of his story doesn't follow unless you max it out AFTER you complete your class story.

 

So the way the story is supposed to flow would be...

 

Realtionship with you.

 

Back Stab but forgiven.

 

Commits himself to you and your cause.

 

Marriage.

 

Some people max out his affection though so he finishes his line of conversations right after Act 2 before Baras turns on you.

 

That said, he does say that he had hoped that you and Baras would never come to blows, so even if you are married he is being asked to choose between his wife and his country... I can't blame him for choosing country.

 

Based on the other companions who have level requirements for their story, it would make sense for the marriage level to be around the same time they are hitting their level 47 or so story which would be after him picking Baras over you. That said we are talking about the Empire. Husband/Wife backstabs are so common they would be about the same level as a minor argument over who's turn it is to take out the trash in our time.

Edited by StarMagus
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Quinn's storyline needs to be timed to work alongside the greater class story in a certain way for it to make the most sense. I think it was a mistake not to gate his quests with game mechanics in order to force this play-through, in my opinion. Some of his later conversations even allude to the betrayal and make more sense when done after Corellia. Unfortunately, anyone trying to avoid spoilers will probably not read a thread like this and know to hold off on his affection.

 

Moral of the story: Don't throw yourself at Quinn, ladies. Good things come to those who wait. ;)

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Quinn's storyline needs to be timed to work alongside the greater class story in a certain way for it to make the most sense. I think it was a mistake not to gate his quests with game mechanics in order to force this play-through, in my opinion. Some of his later conversations even allude to the betrayal and make more sense when done after Corellia. Unfortunately, anyone trying to avoid spoilers will probably not read a thread like this and know to hold off on his affection.

 

Moral of the story: Don't throw yourself at Quinn, ladies. Good things come to those who wait. ;)

 

So true.

 

I maxed out Quinn's affection fairly early and it was disappointing, to say the least, having no conversations whatsoever after his betrayal, which leads to the other issue I didn't exactly address...

 

If you're a LS'ed or fairly balanced SW, it's fairly easy to max him out, even without gifts.

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The, ah, Quinncident has probably caused more drama on this forum than any other part of any storyline in the game. So yeah, I'd say that a lot of people were annoyed by it.

 

Famously, during beta it was possible to kill Quinn for his transgressions, but that option was removed after people started whining about how they didn't realize that killing Quinn meant losing their companion healer. Brainless idiots. What could have been...

 

This is one of the things that bugs me the most about this game. When players laugh at how simplified some things are, you really only have to point to this. People are idiots sometimes.

 

I really, really hope that they eventually decide to return the ability to kill off companions. Especially now that you can get Treek or other companions in-game. What I wouldn't do to kill Skadge and get him off my BH ship...he seriously has the least excuse story-wise to be there out of any companion I've seen. I was so upset that I had to bring him along. Waste of game data and development resources.

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That said, he does say that he had hoped that you and Baras would never come to blows, so even if you are married he is being asked to choose between his wife and his country... I can't blame him for choosing country.

Maybe.

 

Problem 1: "Baras" isn't synonymous with "the Empire". At all. He's one Sith warlord; there are lots of them, and most of them fight each other. Quinn isn't choosing his country over the Warrior, he's choosing one Sith Lord over another.

Problem 2: Baras explicitly states at the end of the Warrior's class quest on Balmorra that Quinn has discharged his obligation to him. Therefore, by his own admission Baras has no claim on Quinn's loyalty that supersedes others'. Furthermore, Quinn approaches the Warrior afterward and asks to work for her. Quinn isn't Baras' man, assigned by him to work for the Warrior; Quinn is the Warrior's man.

Problem 3: Quinn reiterates his loyalty toward the Warrior in the aftermath of Baras' betrayal on Quesh. Presumably, had he been having issues reconciling his loyalty to the Warrior with his ostensible loyalty to Baras, he would have cleared the air; one would think that someone supposedly grateful to the Warrior yet still bound to obey Baras would have behaved 'honorably' and withdrawn from the crew.

Problem 4: Quinn offers up strategic advice to the Warrior in her war against Baras that helps - a lot. One of the reasons that the Corellian trap was somewhat plausible beforehand is that Quinn had offered up similar hints against Baras earlier in Chapter 3 that totally checked out, on Belsavis and with Armageddon Battalion. Both of those hurt Baras pretty seriously. Why did Quinn keep going along with the Warrior then? Why did he wait until after Voss to spring his ill-designed trap?

 

The way the storyline is set up, then, is a little bizarre. Instead of being a somewhat understandable action by a man who's torn between two loyalties that follows from previous events, it instead appears as though Quinn had a brain transplant while the Warrior was on Voss. Some fanfiction writers have reconciled this in intelligent ways; I particularly liked Vesaniae's, although it doesn't apply to male Warriors or female Warriors who don't romance Quinn.

 

I, for one, can't think of a way to make the Quinncident work in most SW stories, so I just ignore it.

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Maybe.

 

Problem 2: Baras explicitly states at the end of the Warrior's class quest on Balmorra that Quinn has discharged his obligation to him. Therefore, by his own admission Baras has no claim on Quinn's loyalty that supersedes others'. Furthermore, Quinn approaches the Warrior afterward and asks to work for her. Quinn isn't Baras' man, assigned by him to work for the Warrior; Quinn is the Warrior's man.

 

You seem to take ol Barry's words for truth, and hoo boy would that make him proud, I imagine. :D For me, it was quite instantly apparent that Baras cheats, manipulates and lies through his teeth like a career politician. The whole scene in the end of Balmorra raised my "Wow, such a not suspicious at all coincidence!" flags, and when the Voss prophecy happened I was, "Bingo!" The whole "romance" angle works into the set of things quite well, given how it's pretty much a textbook case of sexual harassment, which makes betrayal much easier. As "For the Empire!" thing -- again, Baras is a master manipulator and Quinn probably isn't the only one who bought his "My infighting will end all other infightings and it's for the best of our Empire!" spiel.

 

The only thing that doesn't make sense for me is Quinn being spared. While our Warrior gives impression of someone who uses their head for headbutting more often than thinking, s/he is not that stupid.

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Maybe.

 

Problem 1: "Baras" isn't synonymous with "the Empire". At all. He's one Sith warlord; there are lots of them, and most of them fight each other. Quinn isn't choosing his country over the Warrior, he's choosing one Sith Lord over another.

 

No but to Quinn Baras is trying to take over the Empire and push it in a better direction. By the time the Betrayal happens Baras is one step away from absolute power, and only one other sith warlord stands in his way. Not only that be he seems to run things better for the Empire than the other options.

 

 

Problem 2: Baras explicitly states at the end of the Warrior's class quest on Balmorra that Quinn has discharged his obligation to him. Therefore, by his own admission Baras has no claim on Quinn's loyalty that supersedes others'. Furthermore, Quinn approaches the Warrior afterward and asks to work for her. Quinn isn't Baras' man, assigned by him to work for the Warrior; Quinn is the Warrior's man.

 

You believed Baras? I mean what was he going to say to you? "Hey, take Quinn with you, he's totally my spy and is going to backstab you, but you know me being Sith and all I can't lie." Baras set you up to have a spy in your group that was loyal to him. Anything he said to get you to accept the spy was well... what he needed to say to get you to accept the spy.

 

:tran_tongue:

 

Problem 3: Quinn reiterates his loyalty toward the Warrior in the aftermath of Baras' betrayal on Quesh. Presumably, had he been having issues reconciling his loyalty to the Warrior with his ostensible loyalty to Baras, he would have cleared the air; one would think that someone supposedly grateful to the Warrior yet still bound to obey Baras would have behaved 'honorably' and withdrawn from the crew.

 

Again, he's a long term spy in your camp. What did you think he was going to say. "Wow, you survived Baras's backstab, I'm working for Baras as well, but my backstab won't happen until later. You know because us long term under cover spies have to be honest to the people we are spying on."

 

:tran_eek:

 

 

Problem 4: Quinn offers up strategic advice to the Warrior in her war against Baras that helps - a lot. One of the reasons that the Corellian trap was somewhat plausible beforehand is that Quinn had offered up similar hints against Baras earlier in Chapter 3 that totally checked out, on Belsavis and with Armageddon Battalion. Both of those hurt Baras pretty seriously. Why did Quinn keep going along with the Warrior then? Why did he wait until after Voss to spring his ill-designed trap?

 

That's the thing about under cover spies. In order to work they have to feed you information that seems to help you but that they think you would have come to on your own in the long run. Nothing Quinn said on either of those two planets seemed to be any great source or hint of something that my character wouldn't have figured out or didn't already know. Sure he said stuff that was helpful, but not stuff that was beyond helpful.

 

The way the storyline is set up, then, is a little bizarre. Instead of being a somewhat understandable action by a man who's torn between two loyalties that follows from previous events, it instead appears as though Quinn had a brain transplant while the Warrior was on Voss. Some fanfiction writers have reconciled this in intelligent ways; I particularly liked Vesaniae's, although it doesn't apply to male Warriors or female Warriors who don't romance Quinn.

 

I, for one, can't think of a way to make the Quinncident work in most SW stories, so I just ignore it.

 

Not to me, his story line worked as somebody who was a long term undercover spy and fed you just enough information to make you think he's critical to his success, without giving you anything that you wouldn't have already gotten. That's how under cover betrayals work. Was it the best one I've ever read? No... but it worked. The fact that you still are having problems with it shows that it was a really good one. That's how the best betrayals work, the people backstabbed still are left puzzled about things long after they are done.

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Not only that be he seems to run things better for the Empire than the other options.

By critically undermining Imperial military operations in the interests of furthering his political machinations? Repeatedly? Baras was willing to risk losing Corellia and all Imperial military assests stationed there just for the chance his rival, Vowrawn, would go down with them, and Quinn knows this. And perhaps I'm misunderstanding him here, but Baras seemed canny enough to recognise that provoking a war with the Republic isn't a particularly good idea, but he does it anyway to push Vengean into disfavour with the rest of the council.

 

Baras does what's best for Baras. If the Empire benefits - and, let's be honest, it generally doesn't - it's as a side effect.

Edited by Bleeters
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Having one Sith Lord controlling the Empire would make it run better in the long run. The infighting does more harm than good, so yeah while it could be any Sith Lord to make it work, the fact is Baras was the closest to getting there and Quinn was already tied to him.

 

That said, you spend most of the game listening to how Baras has one of the best spy networks in the entire galaxy, the idea that he wouldn't have a spy with you is just silly. :tran_tongue:

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I'm not sure I see the difference in replacing one self absorbed, self entitled, doesn't-give-a-wick-about-anybody-but-himself power grabbing Sith Lord with another as supreme ruler of the Empire. Or why Quinn would be so uncompromisingly loyal to him, considering that Quinn is in no way a bootlicking Sith fanboy a la Ensign Temple. He might show them deference and respect, yes, the same as he respects the chain of command as a whole, but not when their interests so massively conflict with Imperial ones. And I'd say re-allocating key military assets from the war conflicts with Imperial interests. Probably why he assists with resolving that.

 

Besides, you aren't going to eliminate backstabbing power plays amongst the Sith until there are no Sith left. That's just what they are.

Edited by Bleeters
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Objectively you are 100% correct. The problem is Quinn does not have access to all the information we do. Baras is a master manipulator, and the idea that he could convince somebody who respects the chain of command as long as the people above him aren't complete idiots, but has some bitter feelings towards people who don't deserve to hold rank having rank because of the system that the Empire needs a change is pretty easy to imagine.

 

Quinn even tells you point blank that he thinks Baras is the guy to make things better because he's smart, out thinks the people he fights, and he's never lost. While some of that is true, some of that is clearly Baras having worked some high level master manipulator mojo on Quinn.

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Quinn is literally in the room when you're given instructions to go to Hoth and redirect Armaggeddon Battallion back to Corellia, where they're supposed to be. He can be with you when the general in command confirms that they were stationed there on Baras's direct orders, when you can either convince him to disobey those orders ("Imperials are dying whilst you sit on your hands") or execute him because murderloldarkside.

 

It just feels a little like the consequence of moral expectation railroading. As in, assuming everyone who plays is going to be super dark side about it and kill everyone in their way. And, hey, if that's the case, then sure. What motive does Quinn have to side with them? Baras might be objectionable, but the warrior's hardly any better in that regard. But if you don't, if your warrior is more patient and consciencous of the bigger picture as the story very much lets you be, Quinn's actions are a little bizarre.

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Quinn is literally in the room when you're given instructions to go to Hoth and redirect Armaggeddon Battallion back to Corellia, where they're supposed to be. He can be with you when the general in command confirms that they were stationed there on Baras's direct orders, when you can either convince him to disobey those orders ("Imperials are dying whilst you sit on your hands") or execute him because murderloldarkside.

 

It just feels a little like the consequence of moral expectation railroading. As in, assuming everyone who plays is going to be super dark side about it and kill everyone in their way. And, hey, if that's the case, then sure. What motive does Quinn have to side with them? Baras might be objectionable, but the warrior's hardly any better in that regard. But if you don't, if your warrior is more patient and consciencous of the bigger picture as the story very much lets you be, Quinn's actions are a little bizarre.

 

You are bringing up short term problems, sure if you look at Armageddon Battalion being on Hoth, it's a short term bad thing for the Empire in that battle. However even with Armageddon Bat showing up on Corelia the Empire loses, so in the long run it would have been better for the empire to have lost Corelia and still had Armageddon Battalion around then to have wasted them on a mission that was never going to win.

 

As far as I can tell the invasion of Corelia wasn't the choice of the Empire as a whole, but the actions of one Darth that caused a huge amount of losses for the Empire and failed to achieve it's over all goal.

Edited by StarMagus
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You seem to take ol Barry's words for truth, and hoo boy would that make him proud, I imagine. :D For me, it was quite instantly apparent that Baras cheats, manipulates and lies through his teeth like a career politician. The whole scene in the end of Balmorra raised my "Wow, such a not suspicious at all coincidence!" flags, and when the Voss prophecy happened I was, "Bingo!" The whole "romance" angle works into the set of things quite well, given how it's pretty much a textbook case of sexual harassment, which makes betrayal much easier. As "For the Empire!" thing -- again, Baras is a master manipulator and Quinn probably isn't the only one who bought his "My infighting will end all other infightings and it's for the best of our Empire!" spiel.

You believed Baras? I mean what was he going to say to you? "Hey, take Quinn with you, he's totally my spy and is going to backstab you, but you know me being Sith and all I can't lie." Baras set you up to have a spy in your group that was loyal to him. Anything he said to get you to accept the spy was well... what he needed to say to get you to accept the spy.

Again, he's a long term spy in your camp. What did you think he was going to say. "Wow, you survived Baras's backstab, I'm working for Baras as well, but my backstab won't happen until later. You know because us long term under cover spies have to be honest to the people we are spying on."

Of course Baras is an accomplished liar. That doesn't matter at all in this particular instance. In fact, it could, and ought to, work against him. Quinn's debt to Baras was based on a sense of honorable debt. It would be bizarre for him to agree that this debt remains in operation for the sake of a lie. So, what, Baras calls in after Voss and says, "oh, by the way, I lied, you still totally owe me"?

 

Furthermore, Baras' assistance to Quinn - getting him the Balmorra post instead of allowing him to be flung into the outer darkness - is pretty much peanuts compared to what the Warrior does for Quinn over the course of the game. That's even if you assume the last few Quinn companion conversations haven't really happened - no marriage yet, perhaps no Broysc abduction. It's very difficult to understand how Quinn can believe that Baras' service would in any meaningful way outweigh the Warrior's.

 

But then again, the entire Quinn line is based on that sort of unfathomably strange connection between the man's "honor" and his service to an ideal that is completely execrable and contemptible. No normal understanding of "honor" could justify Quinn's continued service to Baras, but Quinn does not possess a coherent and normal understanding of "honor". That's what makes him a poor character. You don't really know where he's going to jump next.

No but to Quinn Baras is trying to take over the Empire and push it in a better direction. By the time the Betrayal happens Baras is one step away from absolute power, and only one other sith warlord stands in his way. Not only that be he seems to run things better for the Empire than the other options.

Quinn's entire character storyline is about how horrible a leader his old enemy, Moff Broysc, is. Not only is Broysc incompetent, but he virtually wages war on subordinates and colleagues who possess any shred of ability. He is, in effect, a symbol of many of the things that are wrong with the Empire, and Quinn's struggle with him mirrors the overall struggle to introduce a shred of intelligence into the Imperial war machine. The problem that Quinn has with Broysc, though, is the exact same problem that Baras creates. Where have we seen competence from Baras throughout the game? All of the relevant actions during the hunt for Jaesa Willsaam were undertaken by the Warrior, not him. The dismantling of the War Trust was a) done almost solely by the Warrior, b) not all that damaging to the Republic judging by the course of the war so far, and c) only done as a stepping stone for some idiotic Sith power struggle.

 

By comparison, we see the Warrior acting in a more or less competent manner for the entire storyline. She defeats all comers, makes chicken crap into chicken salad, and depending on alignment can act in a decidedly more honorable fashion than Baras. The Warrior's struggle with Baras aligns perfectly with Quinn's struggle against Broysc. Any reason Quinn would have for assuming that Baras would be an adept leader of the Imperial war machine would be dwarfed by the reason he would have for assuming that the Warrior would be even better.

That's the thing about under cover spies. In order to work they have to feed you information that seems to help you but that they think you would have come to on your own in the long run. Nothing Quinn said on either of those two planets seemed to be any great source or hint of something that my character wouldn't have figured out or didn't already know. Sure he said stuff that was helpful, but not stuff that was beyond helpful.

I suppose this is one of those "agree to disagree" things.

Not to me, his story line worked as somebody who was a long term undercover spy and fed you just enough information to make you think he's critical to his success, without giving you anything that you wouldn't have already gotten. That's how under cover betrayals work. Was it the best one I've ever read? No... but it worked. The fact that you still are having problems with it shows that it was a really good one. That's how the best betrayals work, the people backstabbed still are left puzzled about things long after they are done.

Nah.

 

I like a good backstab plot as much as anybody else. And it's not like it wasn't possible to see this one coming. Even if I had been able beforehand to avoid forum grumbling about the Quinncident - and I wasn't - there were key bits of dialogue throughout the story that made it seem like Quinn's allegiances were messed up. And, of course, after the vision in the Shrine of Healing it became blatantly, embarrassingly clear. Whatever else, it's impossible to say that the backstab wasn't foreshadowed.

 

The problem arose not because the backstab couldn't be seen coming. It's that the reasons you could see it coming conflicted with my basic understanding of Quinn's personality. And since, you know, our companions' personalities are hammered into us with every bit of dialogue we choose, that sort of thing is fairly important. Quinn was a spy, but the reason he was a spy sucked. That's what was most annoying about the whole thing.

 

You know what was a good betrayal in this game? Nomar Organa on Alderaan in the Inquisitor storyline. A light side Inquisitor can work to try and get him back together with Rehanna Rist, feel all happy about how she made everything work out in the end...then she goes to the Elysium and finds out that Organa never trusted you in the first place and was waiting with a team of Jedi to keep you from Tulak Hord's artifact. That betrayal pissed me off at the time, because I was angry with Organa for dying for no reason and for denying himself his happy ending with Rehanna. I also didn't really see it coming, partially because I wasn't paying attention to the metastory and partially because I'd been conditioned to see LS choices in this game work out in the end every time, so when one didn't I was surprised. But I thought it was a betrayal that made sense. Of course Organa would be mistrustful of a Sith's intentions. Of course he'd place his duty above his relationship with his old flame.

 

The Quinncident didn't work out like that. You say that it's a good thing that it inspired so much discussion. That's nonsense. If a hitherto good story takes a bizarre twist and becomes a bad story, people are going to talk about it. That doesn't make the story magically good again. Here's an example most people might be familiar with: by general consensus, the fifth Harry Potter book was one of the worst in the series. A lot of characters, especially Harry, seemed to have had personality transplants. They started acting in annoying ways that didn't tally with how they'd acted before, which often caused drama for the sake of drama. (It didn't help that the book was ridiculously overlong.) Because of the popularity of the series, many readers were talking about their negative impressions of the book. But they were still negative impressions, and correct ones, because the book sucked. The fact that it sparked a conversation didn't turn it into a good book.

 

I would also like to note that I have and had zero investment in Quinn's character. This isn't a problem with the One Blot on My Husbando's Personality (like it is with, say, bright_ephemera). I don't like Quinn very much at all, really. I don't like his voice, I don't like his casual brutality, I don't like that he's okay with the Sith and the Empire. I think that he has an annoyingly high opinion of himself and his abilities that isn't borne out by what he actually does. Also, he's male. For me, the Quinncident looms no larger than any other story development in SWTOR does. I just find myself talking about it at length here because a) other people really care about it and like to talk about it and b) I talk about almost everything "at length".

Edited by Euphrosyne
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