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Tanking: A Primer


Gankstah

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This is all great information, but after reading it I still felt like it was too broad. Is there any way to further simplifing this for the non mathmaticians? I've seen this type of guides before include a summary of the recommended stats and their yield for each stage of the PvE game. For example (these are %'s as they appear in the paper doll, not some hidden derivative):

 

Recommended Juggernaut tanking stats for running normal FP's:

 

Armor Damage Reduction = x = y damage reduction

Deflection/Parry = x = y Deflection/Parry

Shield Absorb = x = y Damage Absorbed

Shield Chance = x = y Shield proc

Accuracy = x = y hit chance

 

Recommended Juggernaut tanking stats for running Hard Mode FP's:

 

Armor Damage Reduction = x = y damage reduction

Deflection/Parry = x = y Deflection/Parry

Shield Absorb = x = y Damage Absorbed

Shield Chance = x = y Shield proc

Accuracy = x = y hit chance

 

Recommended Juggernaut tanking stats for running OPS:

 

Armor Damage Reduction = x = y damage reduction

Deflection/Parry = x = y Deflection/Parry

Shield Absorb = x = y Damage Absorbed

Shield Chance = x = y Shield proc

Accuracy = x = y hit chance

 

In my opinion this type of information would be much more useful to the community.

 

Thanks.

Edited by Locustone
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  • 3 weeks later...

Awesome work done, can't thank you enough. I'd vote for it if there was a nomination for "the best guide to SWTOR tanking mechanics"!! Keep it up!!!

 

I am totally confused on the topic of accuracy, particularly on the debuff that Shadow / SI can apply (Force Breach / Wither). Starting from the very beginning "Rolling to Hit", where is the place for attacker's accuracy? Is it "avoidance"? I'm reading my own "accuracy" description where it says that it shows how probable melee / force attacks are to "hit the target". Assuming this means that the target can further deflect the attack, shield it and so forth. But I am running with 106+% special attacks accuracy myself and I suspect so are many more melees and ranged guys. Isn't this supposed to mean that the whole point of Force Breach / Wither vs melee/ranged PvP is not to increase your DR but rather try to win back what's "eaten" by the attackers' accuracy? I would suspect similar "accuracy boost" on the bosses in PvE because I very rarely see Deflects, though shielded numbers are common.

 

So how would comment on that? Any thoughts what the real-life adjusted "mean mitigation" breakdown would look like?

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Recommended Juggernaut tanking stats for running normal FP's:

You want these recommendations? Orange gear with 21-22 purple mods will suffice for FP HMs. Full columi is recommended for Ops hard mods, at least half-rakata is recommended for nightmare. No matter what gear it won't help if you don't have common sense and adequate skills.

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A= Avoidance

B= Shield Chance

C= Shield Absorption

D= MBADR

X= Mob's crit chance (so if mob has a 48% chance of critting then X= 0.48)

Y= Mob's crit multiplier (to our knowledge this is a static 1.5% modififer)

 

1-(1-A)(1-D)(B*(1-C)+1-B+X*(Y-1)) = Mean Mitigation

 

This equation isn't quite right. The problem with the original equation is that it doesn't appear to handle the 2nd roll correctly. Once your are hit with the first roll, it doesn't properly calculate the possibilties of how you are hit with the 2nd roll. Currently the chances are:

 

B (The chance to shield)

1-B (The chance to not shield)

X (The chance the enemy crits)

 

If you add these up you get:

1+x

 

or simply put 100% plus the enemies critical hit chance. However, these values must equal 100%. Therefore the current equation is only correct when the enemy has a 0% crit chance.

 

These 3 values need to be calculated as:

Enemy Crit Chance: X

(leave it as is)

 

Shield Chance: MIN(1-X,B)

If the sum of the shield and enemy crit chance is over 100%, all of the enemies crit chance is taken into account before adding the shield. This value will take all of the shield chance if it fits or simply as much as is left after the enemy critical is taken into account

 

Normal Hit Chance: 1 - (X + MIN(1-X,B))

The normal hit chance is always the left overs after critical and shield chances have been calculated.

 

With this in mind, the equation should actually look like:

 

(1-A)(1-D)((X*(1+Y))+(MIN(B,1-X)*(1-C))+((1-(X+MIN(B,1-X)))*1))

 

This give you:

Chance to be hit: 1-A

Damage not reduced: 1-D

Enemy Critical Chance: X

Enemy Critical Damage: 1+Y

Shield Chance: MIN(1-X, B)

Shield Damage: 1-C

Normal Hit Chance: 1-(X+MIN(1-X,B))

Normal Hit Damage: 1

Edited by BroadStreetBully
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I am totally confused on the topic of accuracy, particularly on the debuff that Shadow / SI can apply (Force Breach / Wither). Starting from the very beginning "Rolling to Hit", where is the place for attacker's accuracy? Is it "avoidance"?

 

Essentially, yes.

 

For all calculations provided we assume your target has a base 100% chance to hit you. Since we don't actually empirically know what mobs/bosses actual accuracy is (it's "guestimated" to be in the neighborhood of 5-8%) nor do we empirically know what the exact effects are of accuracy in excess of 100%, we always assume a flat 100% accuracy rating.

 

Once these variables are nailed down then we can proceed with further analysis.

 

This equation isn't quite right.

 

You should speak with Tanis. He would be better suited to discuss his frame of mind regarding the plotting of that calculation and I'm not in the habit of stepping on the toes of other people's work. Whatever consensus you two come up with I will honor. I simply don't have time atm to be an intermediary.

 

This is my "busy season" at work so I barely have time enough as it is to check the forums. :) Keep me in the loop with what you two come up with though.

Edited by Gankstah
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Here's an interesting confirmation of your hints about aggro and taunt mechanic in the last Q&A :

 

Georg Zoeller: Taunts work in two ways. First, they instantly put you on top of the target’s threat list. Then, they place a short duration effect on the taunted target forcing them to attack you. Assuming that you then lose threat (say, you just stand there) the NPC will be forced to attack you for the duration of the Taunt. Afterwards, the AI will resume attacking targets based on threat order. If another Taunt is applied after yours, the most recently applied Taunt takes precedence.

 

Quite nice actually :)

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This is all great information, but after reading it I still felt like it was too broad. Is there any way to further simplifing this for the non mathmaticians? I've seen this type of guides before include a summary of the recommended stats and their yield for each stage of the PvE game. For example (these are %'s as they appear in the paper doll, not some hidden derivative):

 

Recommended Juggernaut tanking stats for running normal FP's:

 

Armor Damage Reduction = x = y damage reduction

Deflection/Parry = x = y Deflection/Parry

Shield Absorb = x = y Damage Absorbed

Shield Chance = x = y Shield proc

Accuracy = x = y hit chance

 

Recommended Juggernaut tanking stats for running Hard Mode FP's:

 

Armor Damage Reduction = x = y damage reduction

Deflection/Parry = x = y Deflection/Parry

Shield Absorb = x = y Damage Absorbed

Shield Chance = x = y Shield proc

Accuracy = x = y hit chance

 

Recommended Juggernaut tanking stats for running OPS:

 

Armor Damage Reduction = x = y damage reduction

Deflection/Parry = x = y Deflection/Parry

Shield Absorb = x = y Damage Absorbed

Shield Chance = x = y Shield proc

Accuracy = x = y hit chance

 

In my opinion this type of information would be much more useful to the community.

 

Thanks.

 

Still waiting on some paper doll simplified numbers. Much appreciated.

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You want these recommendations? Orange gear with 21-22 purple mods will suffice for FP HMs. Full columi is recommended for Ops hard mods, at least half-rakata is recommended for nightmare. No matter what gear it won't help if you don't have common sense and adequate skills.

 

This is the worst answer ever... Get all lthe end game gear and you should be fine... The question is what your stats should look like in a simplified manner. My understanding is that even the set gear may need some re-modding to get best results, but without a simpler version of this guide that reflect paperdoll stats then all this is almost useless to me.

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I would like to understand more about the crit mechanics in ToR.

 

 

[...]

 

Shield Chance: MIN(1-X,B)

If the sum of the shield and enemy crit chance is over 100%, all of the enemies crit chance is taken into account before adding the shield. This value will take all of the shield chance if it fits or simply as much as is left after the enemy critical is taken into account

 

[...]

 

 

Where does this come from? Datamined? Does that mean every shield chance above the sum of shield chance + enemy crit is worthless? And does that mean avoidence is the only way to reduce the actual crit chance of the enemy?

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This is the worst answer ever...

 

Maybe, but it's fairly accurate.

 

I've stated several times that the Primer is not here to do the work FOR you. It's here to give you the tools to figure out those answers for YOURSELF. That's why it's called a *Primer*.

 

With that said here is a generalized answer to your question. End game gear is designed in such a fashion that it sacrifices secondary stats with copious amounts of endurance. It solves the problem of mitigation by drowning it with hit points. BioWare did this because of their unusual infatuation with enrage timers.

 

You CAN, however, tank without the ridiculous sums of endurance that PvE gear affords you its just harder to gear that way because of how difficult it is to create end game mods. I would recommend a Shield of 40%, Defense of 20% and absorption of 80% before starting in on HM. You can get those stats easily enough with your ilum PvE and Belsavis dailies in less than a week.

 

...does that mean avoidence is the only way to reduce the actual crit chance of the enemy?

 

As discussed in the Crit Theory section, that is correct.

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I would recommend a Shield of 40%, Defense of 20% and absorption of 80% before starting in on HM. You can get those stats easily enough with your ilum PvE and Belsavis dailies in less than a week.

 

While I can appreciate your desire to have people figure things out for themselves, I don't beleive that you put so much effort in to this "primer" without already doing the work yourself. Would it be increadibly hard to share those recommendations such as you did above for the entire paper doll section? This is really constructive criticism and if the answer is that you can not figure things out due to the lack of combat logs or some other reason, then it is just as noble to say "I don't know."

 

Either way, I think this is a good guide and I'm sure we all appreciate your work.

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While I can appreciate your desire to have people figure things out for themselves, I don't beleive that you put so much effort in to this "primer" without already doing the work yourself. Would it be increadibly hard to share those recommendations such as you did above for the entire paper doll section?

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, really... I don't, but any work I've done outside of this thread is for me and me alone.

 

I don't owe anyone anything. This is not my job. I don't get paid for this. And the reader's of this thread sure as shnitzel aren't my "employers". I don't inject my personal opinions on the matter simply because that's not what *this* thread is about. There are copious amounts of resources outside of this thread which do broach that topic and that's what *those* threads are about.

 

*This* thread doesn't touch that particular topic because it is volatile. It's completely subjective. There are several ways you can gear yourself mathematically and have an amazing Mean Mitigation. And each way has it's own pro's and con's. Those pro's and con's are exactly what start endless debates and forum wars both here on the official forums, fan sites and theorycrafting sites around the web.

 

The Primer is just that, a Primer. It's not intended to tell you how to gear or play your toon. It's not a Guide; the second sentence of the OP explicitly states that. It's here simply to educate and formulate tools and ideas with which players can make educated decisions on THEIR OWN.

 

That's the last I will say on the matter.

Edited by Gankstah
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Extremely nice job!

I am a sniper and i find that very informative!

I would like to ask you one thing though...

I struggle against tanks and SI in PvP and i decide to go to "enemy" forums in order to find ways to compensated. but lack of experience as a tank i would like to ask you (that i assume you have optimised your endgame stats) to helm me become a problem for you? :D

 

Assuming that you are fully buffed (class buffs), but with no consumables and relics, what kind of numbers for my stats: accuracy, critical chance, will have the best probability in theory to land a blow normal or critical on your tank...(with normal or tech skills)

 

Yo will probably say that its not my role in PvP to primary consider damage you but if i hit you i can harm anybody. And in general would be nice to know how much of disadvantage i have against a good tank.

 

Thanks again for the outstanding job on combat mechanics explanation in general.

Edited by Narfirill
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Hey, this is a great guide. could I get a bit of advice on the skill tree? spent a few hours last night looking through other ppl's guides for their view point on defence/vigilence tanking, and I tried to combine the best of all of it. btw, this is for raid tanking for guardian: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500crG0uMrkzMZhGb0MZM.1

plz pm me with your answer if u can

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  • 2 weeks later...

My sub has been cancelled.

 

I'm sorry but SWTOR is just not the game it *could* have been. Perhaps in 5-6 months I'll revisit and see if any progress has been made to bring SWTOR up to par but, as the saying goes, it's my time and my money... I'll do with it what I so choose.

 

It's been stated that in 1.2 changes will be made to stats, diminishing returns and other mechanics. Because of that I'm sure most of what's in the Primer will be largely out dated. I have requested that the Primer be taken off of sticky. I encourage anyone out there that's willing to update and/or maintain it to migrate over what you will and request that it be stickied under your account. You can reference this post in your request to help expedite the transition.

 

I wish everyone nothing but the best and genuinely hope that SWTOR eventually shapes up to the MMO potential it has.

 

Be good to one another.

Edited by Gankstah
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  • 7 months later...
  • 1 year later...

This will probably have already been answered, but I would like to ask if someone wouldn't mind pointing me to a good area, in the thread, to read about vanguard tanking. I apologize for this, but I'd like to read more about it, and get some knowledge about it.

 

This is a great guide. When I tank with my Sith Assassin, I do my best to pull aggro to me. And I feel that is the best way to do it. Having the mobs attack me over the healer will help keep the healer alive, and keep me from dying. I would like to remind the dps'ers that it is their job to help the tank in killing mobs, and keeping the healer alive. I almost stopped healing as a Jedi Sage, or even smuggler. I don't want the aggravation of doing my job, and yet getting blamed for pulling aggro when the tank isn't doing their job. I know how hard it is to heal through mobs attacking me, so when I do tank on my characters that can tank, I do my best to protect my healer the best I can.

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This will probably have already been answered, but I would like to ask if someone wouldn't mind pointing me to a good area, in the thread, to read about vanguard tanking. I apologize for this, but I'd like to read more about it, and get some knowledge about it.

 

This is a great guide. When I tank with my Sith Assassin, I do my best to pull aggro to me. And I feel that is the best way to do it. Having the mobs attack me over the healer will help keep the healer alive, and keep me from dying. I would like to remind the dps'ers that it is their job to help the tank in killing mobs, and keeping the healer alive. I almost stopped healing as a Jedi Sage, or even smuggler. I don't want the aggravation of doing my job, and yet getting blamed for pulling aggro when the tank isn't doing their job. I know how hard it is to heal through mobs attacking me, so when I do tank on my characters that can tank, I do my best to protect my healer the best I can.

 

dude this is about as necro as a post as you can get. **** hasn't been updated since about the start of the game.

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This will probably have already been answered, but I would like to ask if someone wouldn't mind pointing me to a good area, in the thread, to read about vanguard tanking. I apologize for this, but I'd like to read more about it, and get some knowledge about it.

 

This is a great guide. When I tank with my Sith Assassin, I do my best to pull aggro to me. And I feel that is the best way to do it. Having the mobs attack me over the healer will help keep the healer alive, and keep me from dying. I would like to remind the dps'ers that it is their job to help the tank in killing mobs, and keeping the healer alive. I almost stopped healing as a Jedi Sage, or even smuggler. I don't want the aggravation of doing my job, and yet getting blamed for pulling aggro when the tank isn't doing their job. I know how hard it is to heal through mobs attacking me, so when I do tank on my characters that can tank, I do my best to protect my healer the best I can.

 

Boarder at swtorboard.org will be putting out an excellent Vanguard tank guide very soon. Presently no good Vanguard tank guide exists.

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Boarder at swtorboard.org will be putting out an excellent Vanguard tank guide very soon. Presently no good Vanguard tank guide exists.

 

http://dulfy.net/2014/01/05/swtor-shield-tech-powertech-tanking-class-guide/

 

Don't respond with "that guide sucks lol". It's still a damn guide and honestly decent for beginners.

 

EDIT: Guide actually isn't half bad after reading it. :/

Edited by mastirkal
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http://dulfy.net/2014/01/05/swtor-shield-tech-powertech-tanking-class-guide/

 

Don't respond with "that guide sucks lol". It's still a damn guide and honestly decent for beginners.

 

EDIT: Guide actually isn't half bad after reading it. :/

 

That was for powertech, but I did find the Vanguard easily enough. Thank you.

 

This is an awesome guide. I just wish more people would pay attention to this, as well as other things. I do recommend, with a ton of other research, learning the rotations, cd's, etc. for being a tank. One site I use is http://www.noxxic.com I know, people will say it's a bad site, it's this and that, but it's a good start.

 

I've had a few flashpoints where I healed, and was almost booted because I generated more aggro than the tank. I hate, when I heal, when a tank doesn't use their AoE taunts, and hangs the healer out to die. Or the dps'ers that don't take care of the mobs, or adds, and the healer draws the aggro, for doing nothing but healing. Now that I have a better understanding of the roles, I will do my best to use what I know to better help whatever group I'm in, and may even help the tank out, if they aren't doing their jobs, and everyone dies because the healer, me when I am in the role, dies first.

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