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The Tank Shadow Hybrid spec.


DweezillKagemand

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I am taking a wild guess that you are a jug. Jug tanks are pretty amazing I am working on one now. They have and do things better than assassins and the damage when played right can be almost on par.

 

Playing Jugg heavily dependent on your team. Outside your mates is nothing special in the game for Juggernaut

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Were they in DPS gear?

 

Yeah, thought so.

 

 

 

Also, this thread was a great read!

 

Nice assumption, they were in a mix actually, I asked him afterwards, He was also using a shield generator, with tank stance, with most of the points invested in a tank tree.

 

Half of these replies, not necessarily just the one I quoted, have failed to read my argument. I DO NOT WANT SURVIVABILITY NERFED and I think they were wrong in doing so. I believe, for a tank class, they are doing too much damage, at very little cost.

 

Stuff like Duplicity is too low in the tree and with 1 point invested gives great returns. I don't care if a tank spec is survivable, after all it is a tank, but I don't expect to see a tank hit me for 1/4 of my life.

 

Yeah.

 

Inb4 some rubbish 1vs1 reply

Edited by DweezillKagemand
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Nice assumption, they were in a mix actually, I asked him afterwards, He was also using a shield generator, with tank stance, with most of the points invested in a tank tree.

 

Half of these replies, not necessarily just the one I quoted, have failed to read my argument. I DO NOT WANT SURVIVABILITY NERFED and I think they were wrong in doing so. I believe, for a tank class, they are doing too much damage, at very little cost.

 

Stuff like Duplicity is too low in the tree and with 1 point invested gives great returns. I don't care if a tank spec is survivable, after all it is a tank, but I don't expect to see a tank hit me for 1/4 of my life.

 

Yeah.

 

Inb4 some rubbish 1vs1 reply

 

so then dont give them ur back! by giving them ur back or running from them they just do more dps.... especially with force slow and force speed you cant out run them... on top of that force pull so yeah by giving them ur back you just gave them their max dps bro....

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so then dont give them ur back! by giving them ur back or running from them they just do more dps.... especially with force slow and force speed you cant out run them... on top of that force pull so yeah by giving them ur back you just gave them their max dps bro....

 

Extremely viable, at some point I am going to strafe away, allowing you to stab me. Also, just standing there and trying to fight someone when you're clearly going to lose is why most people suck at this game. You have to fall back at some point. Not to mention, you have a stun and a knockdown, it's pretty easy to get that Maul off.

 

You do know Assassins can move too right? Just standing still doesn't stop them from running behind you. Regardless, Maul works from a side-onish angle anyway.

Edited by DweezillKagemand
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Lets also remember that sins are easy to play but difficult to play well.

 

Nerf down a toon with a high skill cap and no one will play it.. cough(op, scoundrel)

 

Sins are great characters with lots of utility but nothing about 23/1/17 the beginner undergeared utility spec is OP.

 

So far the only halfway reasonable problem u have with them is doing too much damage for a tank. But they are wearing DPS gear and stacking offensive stats.

 

Lol have you heard of 23/17/1? Its got almost no utility and is pretty much single target but its got MASSIVE survivability and heavy single target gank damage. More defence and offence than 23/1/17 but no utility.

 

Sins are versitile indeed.

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It's a natural reaction when you see a class that has such an incredible versatility compared to other classes that are miles behind. Besides i would rather prefer more predictability in what they can throw at you. A carnage marauder, a PT, whatever other class you know exactly what you can expect from them, what they can use against you, what you should be aware against, what talents they have at their disposal. And all of these play complete differently, you cannot plan ahead how you will react to their moves.

 

Against assassins, his stance doesn't mean anything, a sin in tank stance could be a hybrid tank/deception with crazy survivability, or he could be the standard 27/1/13 or any other build or he could just be a pure tank. It means nothing.

 

I do not believe that this is in any way fair. I believe that this is a result of a class design failure when developers had no idea what exactly they want from a class, how should it perform what should be their weaknesses and strengths. They did it perfectly for Snipers, which makes me think that different people have been responssible for different classes. In this case i believe that the designer behind the assassins did a bad job.

 

The stance honestly does determine a lot though. Pretty much all of them are going to try to get behind you, so if you aren't a sniper you shouldn't let them. Only the infiltration line of hybrids has any truly appreciable burst. The balance line of hybrids are all super squishy. That leaves the tank hybrids. If you see one getting harnessed shadow stacks then you know they don't have instant force lift, if you see one using Force in Balance then they don't have slow time. The mind games are half the fun of the class though, and none of the hybrids are instantly dangerous in the zerg. Great node guards yes, but in the zerg none of the tank hybrids has the super burst DPS on their own.

 

Meanwhile I don't know what to expect from snipers at all till I see them use a few abilities. It's not significantly different to be honest. I can tell within about 2 GCDs what kind of spec an assassin is running, and what to expect from that spec. Learn how those specs work and then come back and tell me it's unfair.

 

I'll agree though that the classes were clearly designed by different groups who didn't talk to each other. Again, just look at commando and tell me they were balanced for the same game as everyone else.

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Lol, NO! But buff jugg and powertech tanks!

Aaaaaand buff mercs ofc! :rolleyes:

 

I always wondered, how to buff mercs.

They have self heal (PT doesnt), now they have 30 m interrupt 12 s and mezz (pt have only 10 meter interrupt but on 8s cd)...

make abilities instant? already did, it's called powertech but...

hey, uncle Atramar, but PT is 4-10 meters and I want 30 m...

well, charlie, if u want mobile 30 meters range char, go sniper lethality...

but uncle Atramar, sniper has to many buttons and no 1 minute pve mezz and no self healz..

well charlie, tought, every class has pros and cons... you don't like how mercs/commandos work, roll other char.

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Tbh, I almost wonder how a Shadow's 22/17/2 http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/Shadow#73e762l2-c78cif-c measures up to a Guardian's 27/12/2 http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/guardian#cde7j0ke8-20d2f-2 in terms of survivability and utility... let's compare

 

 

Defensive Cooldowns

 

22/17/2(Shadow)

-Blackout/Shadow's Respite(A shadow in 22/17/2 can get Shadow's Respite every 45 seconds, and it lasts for 6 seconds.

-Resilience(Has a 1 minute cooldown and grants you 5 seconds of CC immunity to all CCs that are force or tech based. Every time you shield, deflect, or parry an attack, the cooldown of Resilience is lowered 1 second, cannot proc more than once a second.)

-Deflection(Increases your ranged and melee defense by 50% for 12 seconds.)

-Kinetic Ward(increases your shield chance against melee and ranged attacks by 15% for 20 seconds. The amount of damage you absorb will depend on your absorption rating. Has a 12 second cooldown.)

-Force Cloak(Takes you out of combat. In 22/17/2 spec, you can be healed while you're in force cloak.)

-Warzone medpacs can be used more than once per fight because Force Cloak will refresh the medpac.

 

 

27/12/2(Guardian)

-Warding Call(Reduces all damage taken by 40% for 10 seconds. Has a 3 minute cooldown.)

-Focused Defense(Spends 1 focus to heal you for 3% of your health as long as you're taking damage. Lasts for 10 seconds. Cannot occur more than once per second. Can be used while stunned. Has a 45 second cooldown.)

-Saber Ward(Increases melee and ranged defense by 50% and reduces damage from force and tech attacks by 25%. Lasts 12 seconds. Has a 3 minute cooldown.)

-Enure(Increases your maximum health by 30% for 15 seconds. If you're low health and use this with a warzone medpac, you'll usually be healed back to near full health. Has a 1 minute 30 second cooldown.)

 

 

 

Passive Defenses/Talents

 

22/17/2(Shadow)

-Fade(Reduces area of effect damage by 30%[passive]. Also reduces the cooldown of blackout by 15 seconds, and Force Cloak by 30 seconds.)

-Celerity(Reduces the cooldown of your interrupt by 2 seconds, reduces the cooldown of your CC breaker by 30 seconds, and reduces the cooldown of force speed by 5 seconds.)

-Force Speed breaks roots

-Jedi Resistance(reduces all damage taken by 2%[passive])

-Mental Fortitude(increases endurance by 3%[passive])

-Impact Control(Increases shield absorption by 4%. In addition Combat Readiness heals you for 10% of your health.)

 

 

27/12/2(Guardian)

-Guard Stance(Increases melee and ranged defenses by 6% while in Soresu Form[passive])

-Blade Barricade(Riposte increases melee and ranged defense by 3% for 12 seconds.)

-Blade Barrier(Using Blade Storm activates Blade Barrier, which absorbs a moderate amount of damage for 10 seconds.)

-Sheld Specialization(Increases shield chance by 4%[passive])

-Inner Peace(Increases the duration of Enure by 4 seconds, and increases your elemental and internal damage reduction by 4%)

-Single Saber Mastery(Increases melee and ranged defense by 3% while in Soresu Form)

-Unremitting(Force Leap activates unremitting, which gives you 20% reduced damage taken and CC immunity for 4 seconds.)

-If you have the 2 piece Vindicator set bonus, using Guardian Leap heals you for 8% of your total health. It has a 20 second cooldown.

 

 

Crowd Control Abilities(CCs)/Utility

 

 

22/17/2(Shadow)

-Force Pull(pulls an enemy target to you. Has a 45 second cooldown. 10-30m range.)

-Force Stun(stuns the target for 4 seconds. 1 minute cooldown. 10m range.)

-Spinning Kick(Stuns the target for 2 seconds. 20 second cooldown. 4m range.)

-Mind Maze(Mezzes the target for 8 seconds. Only usable from stealth. No cooldown. 10m range)

-Force Wave(Knocks back all enemies in front of you. 20 second cooldown. 15m range)

-Force Slow(Slows target's movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown. 10m range, 15m range with the stalker 2 set.)

-Mind Snap(Interrupts target's current action for 4 seconds. 10 second cooldown. 10m range.)

 

 

27/12/2(Guardian)

-Force Push(pushes a target away from you and knocks him down for 2 seconds. Also finishes the cooldown on your Force Leap. Has a 45 second cooldown. 10m range)

-Force Stasis(Stuns the target for 4 seconds. Has a 1 minute cooldown. 10m range.)

-Hilt Strike(Stuns the target for 4 seconds. Has a 1 minute cooldown. 4m range.)

-Awe(Mezzes all enemies for 6 seconds in an AoE. Has a 1 minute cooldown. 10m range)

-Force Leap(Leaps to a target and roots them for 3 seconds. Has a 15 second cooldown. 10-30m range.)

-Freezing Force(Reduces the movement speed of enemies in an AoE by 50% for 9 seconds. 10m range. Has no cooldown... in fact it operates on half a global cooldown.)

 

 

Comparison/Analysis

-Blackout/Shadow's Respite vs Warding Call(Blackout/Shadow's Respite has a slight advantage here because the cooldown is 4 times less than the cooldown of Warding Call.)

 

-Resilience vs Unremitting(Resilience has a slight edge here because it has the ability to block ALL force/tech attacks that come at you, as well as cleansing DoTs off yourself, as well as making you immune to all CC that is force/tech based. Unremitting can be used more often, but it only makes you CC immune and reduces the damage by 20%, not 100%.)

 

-Deflection vs Saber Ward(Saber Ward has a slight edge here because of the 25% added tech/force damage reduction. The only reason I say slight edge is because the cooldown on Deflection is 33% shorter than Saber Ward's cooldown.)

 

-Kinetic Ward vs Focused Defense(I would give Focused Defense the victory here, as endurance/health is the most important stat besides expertise. I'd rather have something that is capable of healing me for up to 30% over 10 seconds than having something that increases my shield chance by 15%. Still, kinetic ward is pretty much a permanent buff as the cooldown is over a lot of times before your 8 charges of Kinetic Ward are taken off.)

 

-Force Cloak/Warzone Medpac Refresh vs Enure/Warzone Medpac(I'd give Enure a slight victory here. The fact that with Enure and a warzone medpac you can pretty much go from low health to full health is pretty powerful. Though if you're in a game that the fighting is going on nonstop, it'd be better if you were able to refresh your medpac with Force Cloak. Even so, without a medpac, if you use Enure, as long as you have a good healer they can probably heal you back up.)

 

If we compared the Shadow passive damage reduction skills 22/17/2 to the passive Guardian damage reduction skills in 27/12/2, this is what we get.

 

-Shadow(32% AoE damage reduction, 4% increased shield absorption, 2% reduced damage, 3% increased endurance, 9% increased elemental and internal damage reduction, 1 minute 30 second CC breaker)

vs

-Guardian(9% melee and ranged defense, 4% increased shield chance, 4% increased elemental and internal damage reduction, 2 minute CC breaker.)

 

If we were going by this alone, I'd give Shadow the advantage here. However, Guardians get a lot of talents that increases their defenses passively for a time when doing certain moves(Blade Barrier, Blade Barracade, Unremitting, and 8% self-heal from guardian leap.) I'd give Guardian the advantage here because of that. As far as CCs go....

 

Force Stun vs Force Stasis (This is a draw, the skills are pretty much the same thing just different names/animations since Force Stasis is not channeled in 27/12/2)

 

Spinning Kick vs Hilt Strike(Spinning kick wins here. because the duration is 2 times less, yet the cooldown is 3 times less.)

 

Mind Maze vs Awe(Awe wins no contest, even though the duration is less than Mind Maze and has a cooldown, it's an AoE and a Guardian will probably use this more in a game than a Shadow will use Mind Maze.)

 

Force Push vs Force Pull(Force Push has a slight advantage, because as a tank if you're guarding people, or if you're almost dead and someone is attacking you, you'd rather push the target away from you than pull them towards you.)

 

Force Slow vs Freezing Force(The difference is not even close here. A 6 second single target slow and a 12 second cooldown vs a 9 second AoE slow with no cooldown. Seriously Freezing Force is ridiculous.)

Edited by NamikazeNaruto
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I always wondered, how to buff mercs.

They have self heal (PT doesnt), now they have 30 m interrupt 12 s and mezz (pt have only 10 meter interrupt but on 8s cd)...

make abilities instant? already did, it's called powertech but...

hey, uncle Atramar, but PT is 4-10 meters and I want 30 m...

well, charlie, if u want mobile 30 meters range char, go sniper lethality...

but uncle Atramar, sniper has to many buttons and no 1 minute pve mezz and no self healz..

well charlie, tought, every class has pros and cons... you don't like how mercs/commandos work, roll other char.

 

 

Hey Uncle Atramar, Commando was my first class to 50, and I really like it but it is not viable in 50 PVP in any spec really. Oh wow they gave us a 30m interrupt?! Oh boy! That sure helps address my crippling lack of utility (LOLselfheals when you're in a DPS spec) or my inability to get any kind of sustained damage out under pressure in Assault or burst damage out under pressure in gunnery!

 

I get the cons of the class Uncle Atramar but I'm having a hard time seeing the pros. Maybe you should not spout ignorant tripe about a class whose issues you know nothing about? Thanks a ton Uncle Atramar!

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Hey Uncle Atramar, Commando was my first class to 50, and I really like it but it is not viable in 50 PVP in any spec really. Oh wow they gave us a 30m interrupt?! Oh boy! That sure helps address my crippling lack of utility (LOLselfheals when you're in a DPS spec) or my inability to get any kind of sustained damage out under pressure in Assault or burst damage out under pressure in gunnery!

 

I get the cons of the class Uncle Atramar but I'm having a hard time seeing the pros. Maybe you should not spout ignorant tripe about a class whose issues you know nothing about? Thanks a ton Uncle Atramar!

 

 

I love being called uncle :)

pros of commando/merc is easy to handle high damage for PVE.

self heals are lol, yes, but they are there.

I'm not saying mercs/commandos are good for pvp. but. if you don't see pros for a class in pvp, why keep playing it?

it's like 'i love stealth, but I play jugg, so give me stealth'

want interruptable turret class with lots of buttons? go sniper MM

want instant (but short range) abilities? go PT.

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Tbh, I almost wonder how a Shadow's 22/17/2 http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/Shadow#73e762l2-c78cif-c measures up to a Guardian's 27/12/2 http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/guardian#cde7j0ke8-20d2f-2 in terms of survivability and utility... let's compare

 

 

Defensive Cooldowns

 

22/17/2(Shadow)

-Blackout/Shadow's Respite(A shadow in 22/17/2 can get Shadow's Respite every 45 seconds, and it lasts for 6 seconds.

-Resilience(Has a 1 minute cooldown and grants you 5 seconds of CC immunity to all CCs that are force or tech based. Every time you shield, deflect, or parry an attack, the cooldown of Resilience is lowered 1 second, cannot proc more than once a second.)

-Deflection(Increases your ranged and melee defense by 50% for 12 seconds.)

-Kinetic Ward(increases your shield chance against melee and ranged attacks by 15% for 20 seconds. The amount of damage you absorb will depend on your absorption rating. Has a 12 second cooldown.)

-Force Cloak(Takes you out of combat. In 22/17/2 spec, you can be healed while you're in force cloak.)

-Warzone medpacs can be used more than once per fight because Force Cloak will refresh the medpac.

 

 

27/12/2(Guardian)

-Warding Call(Reduces all damage taken by 40% for 10 seconds. Has a 3 minute cooldown.)

-Focused Defense(Spends 1 focus to heal you for 3% of your health as long as you're taking damage. Lasts for 10 seconds. Cannot occur more than once per second. Can be used while stunned. Has a 45 second cooldown.)

-Saber Ward(Increases melee and ranged defense by 50% and reduces damage from force and tech attacks by 25%. Lasts 12 seconds. Has a 3 minute cooldown.)

-Enure(Increases your maximum health by 30% for 15 seconds. If you're low health and use this with a warzone medpac, you'll usually be healed back to near full health. Has a 1 minute 30 second cooldown.)

 

 

 

Passive Defenses/Talents

 

22/17/2(Shadow)

-Fade(Reduces area of effect damage by 30%[passive]. Also reduces the cooldown of blackout by 15 seconds, and Force Cloak by 30 seconds.)

-Celerity(Reduces the cooldown of your interrupt by 2 seconds, reduces the cooldown of your CC breaker by 30 seconds, and reduces the cooldown of force speed by 5 seconds.)

-Force Speed breaks roots

-Jedi Resistance(reduces all damage taken by 2%[passive])

-Mental Fortitude(increases endurance by 3%[passive])

-Impact Control(Increases shield absorption by 4%. In addition Combat Readiness heals you for 10% of your health.)

 

 

27/12/2(Guardian)

-Guard Stance(Increases melee and ranged defenses by 6% while in Soresu Form[passive])

-Blade Barricade(Riposte increases melee and ranged defense by 3% for 12 seconds.)

-Blade Barrier(Using Blade Storm activates Blade Barrier, which absorbs a moderate amount of damage for 10 seconds.)

-Sheld Specialization(Increases shield chance by 4%[passive])

-Inner Peace(Increases the duration of Enure by 4 seconds, and increases your elemental and internal damage reduction by 4%)

-Single Saber Mastery(Increases melee and ranged defense by 3% while in Soresu Form)

-Unremitting(Force Leap activates unremitting, which gives you 20% reduced damage taken and CC immunity for 4 seconds.)

-If you have the 2 piece Vindicator set bonus, using Guardian Leap heals you for 8% of your total health. It has a 20 second cooldown.

 

 

Crowd Control Abilities(CCs)/Utility

 

 

22/17/2(Shadow)

-Force Pull(pulls an enemy target to you. Has a 45 second cooldown. 10-30m range.)

-Force Stun(stuns the target for 4 seconds. 1 minute cooldown. 10m range.)

-Spinning Kick(Stuns the target for 2 seconds. 20 second cooldown. 4m range.)

-Mind Maze(Mezzes the target for 8 seconds. Only usable from stealth. No cooldown. 10m range)

-Force Wave(Knocks back all enemies in front of you. 20 second cooldown. 15m range)

-Force Slow(Slows target's movement speed by 50% for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown. 10m range, 15m range with the stalker 2 set.)

-Mind Snap(Interrupts target's current action for 4 seconds. 10 second cooldown. 10m range.)

 

 

27/12/2(Guardian)

-Force Push(pushes a target away from you and knocks him down for 2 seconds. Also finishes the cooldown on your Force Leap. Has a 45 second cooldown. 10m range)

-Force Stasis(Stuns the target for 4 seconds. Has a 1 minute cooldown. 10m range.)

-Hilt Strike(Stuns the target for 4 seconds. Has a 1 minute cooldown. 4m range.)

-Awe(Mezzes all enemies for 6 seconds in an AoE. Has a 1 minute cooldown. 10m range)

-Force Leap(Leaps to a target and roots them for 3 seconds. Has a 15 second cooldown. 10-30m range.)

-Freezing Force(Reduces the movement speed of enemies in an AoE by 50% for 9 seconds. 10m range. Has no cooldown... in fact it operates on half a global cooldown.)

 

 

Comparison/Analysis

-Blackout/Shadow's Respite vs Warding Call(Blackout/Shadow's Respite has a slight advantage here because the cooldown is 4 times less than the cooldown of Warding Call.)

 

-Resilience vs Unremitting(Resilience has a slight edge here because it has the ability to block ALL force/tech attacks that come at you, as well as cleansing DoTs off yourself, as well as making you immune to all CC that is force/tech based. Unremitting can be used more often, but it only makes you CC immune and reduces the damage by 20%, not 100%.)

 

-Deflection vs Saber Ward(Saber Ward has a slight edge here because of the 25% added tech/force damage reduction. The only reason I say slight edge is because the cooldown on Deflection is 33% shorter than Saber Ward's cooldown.)

 

-Kinetic Ward vs Focused Defense(I would give Focused Defense the victory here, as endurance/health is the most important stat besides expertise. I'd rather have something that is capable of healing me for up to 30% over 10 seconds than having something that increases my shield chance by 15%. Still, kinetic ward is pretty much a permanent buff as the cooldown is over a lot of times before your 8 charges of Kinetic Ward are taken off.)

 

-Force Cloak/Warzone Medpac Refresh vs Enure/Warzone Medpac(I'd give Enure a slight victory here. The fact that with Enure and a warzone medpac you can pretty much go from low health to full health is pretty powerful. Though if you're in a game that the fighting is going on nonstop, it'd be better if you were able to refresh your medpac with Force Cloak. Even so, without a medpac, if you use Enure, as long as you have a good healer they can probably heal you back up.)

 

If we compared the Shadow passive damage reduction skills 22/17/2 to the passive Guardian damage reduction skills in 27/12/2, this is what we get.

 

-Shadow(32% AoE damage reduction, 4% increased shield absorption, 2% reduced damage, 3% increased endurance, 9% increased elemental and internal damage reduction, 1 minute 30 second CC breaker)

vs

-Guardian(9% melee and ranged defense, 4% increased shield chance, 4% increased elemental and internal damage reduction, 2 minute CC breaker.)

 

If we were going by this alone, I'd give Shadow the advantage here. However, Guardians get a lot of talents that increases their defenses passively for a time when doing certain moves(Blade Barrier, Blade Barracade, Unremitting, and 8% self-heal from guardian leap.) I'd give Guardian the advantage here because of that. As far as CCs go....

 

Force Stun vs Force Stasis (This is a draw, the skills are pretty much the same thing just different names/animations since Force Stasis is not channeled in 27/12/2)

 

Spinning Kick vs Hilt Strike(Spinning kick wins here. because the duration is 2 times less, yet the cooldown is 3 times less.)

 

Mind Maze vs Awe(Awe wins no contest, even though the duration is less than Mind Maze and has a cooldown, it's an AoE and a Guardian will probably use this more in a game than a Shadow will use Mind Maze.)

 

Force Push vs Force Pull(Force Push has a slight advantage, because as a tank if you're guarding people, or if you're almost dead and someone is attacking you, you'd rather push the target away from you than pull them towards you.)

 

Force Slow vs Freezing Force(The difference is not even close here. A 6 second single target slow and a 12 second cooldown vs a 9 second AoE slow with no cooldown. Seriously Freezing Force is ridiculous.)

 

Interesting to compare using that jugg/guard build. I personally think it's not a very effective build. Hilt strike / back hand adds too much resolve so it should be dropped (you pretty much explained why it's not great).

 

Also, anyone pvp tanking with a jugg/guard should be getting deafening defense / commanding awe. 4% constant damage reduction with an additional 15% when enraged / focused defense is activated (every 35 seconds). It also lowers the cooldown on the AOE mezz. Kind of like shadow's respite but it lasts longer, has a constant reduced damage %, heals you and gives you more AOE mezz. That single skill on the tree is make or break for jugg tanking (in my opinion). I also think it makes jugg/guardians the best pvp tanks. AND I also think it's crazy that it's 5th tier in a dps tree....

 

I may have missed it up there but I think you forgot intercede / guardian leap. Which pretty much gives a guard / jugg the ability to stack two AOE taunts (when used correctly). Most notably when saving someone under focus fire. This is a stand out for me.

 

A stand out for me on my shadow is using resilience + force cloak to buy more time, even when vastly outnumbered.

 

Also I don't think your comparison of resilience vs unremitting is completely accurate. Unremitting is pretty easy, flat 20% damage reduction and CC immunity for 4 seconds. Resilience only effects force/tech, it adds 100% resistance to these attacks, not immunity (yea :confused: in SWTOR they managed to create a difference between 100% resistance and immunity). Juggs cannot be hit with leg shot/slows/etc after leap, shadows can be stopped, shut down or killed many ways with resilience up.

 

I know I feel more tanky/useful when I'm tanking on my jugg. I can soak up more dps and keep people alive longer. That and my shadow can't throw people over walls in civil war :)

 

As to the OP. More nerfs, really? Shadow/sins aren't prime DPS in this game, they have their nitch (which almost always requires hybrid spec), let them fill it.

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Interesting to compare using that jugg/guard build. I personally think it's not a very effective build. Hilt strike / back hand adds too much resolve so it should be dropped (you pretty much explained why it's not great).

 

Also, anyone pvp tanking with a jugg/guard should be getting deafening defense / commanding awe. 4% constant damage reduction with an additional 15% when enraged / focused defense is activated (every 35 seconds). It also lowers the cooldown on the AOE mezz. Kind of like shadow's respite but it lasts longer, has a constant reduced damage %, heals you and gives you more AOE mezz. That single skill on the tree is make or break for jugg tanking (in my opinion). I also think it makes jugg/guardians the best pvp tanks. AND I also think it's crazy that it's 5th tier in a dps tree....

 

I may have missed it up there but I think you forgot intercede / guardian leap. Which pretty much gives a guard / jugg the ability to stack two AOE taunts (when used correctly). Most notably when saving someone under focus fire. This is a stand out for me.

 

A stand out for me on my shadow is using resilience + force cloak to buy more time, even when vastly outnumbered.

 

Also I don't think your comparison of resilience vs unremitting is completely accurate. Unremitting is pretty easy, flat 20% damage reduction and CC immunity for 4 seconds. Resilience only effects force/tech, it adds 100% resistance to these attacks, not immunity (yea :confused: in SWTOR they managed to create a difference between 100% resistance and immunity). Juggs cannot be hit with leg shot/slows/etc after leap, shadows can be stopped, shut down or killed many ways with resilience up.

 

I know I feel more tanky/useful when I'm tanking on my jugg. I can soak up more dps and keep people alive longer. That and my shadow can't throw people over walls in civil war :)

 

As to the OP. More nerfs, really? Shadow/sins aren't prime DPS in this game, they have their nitch (which almost always requires hybrid spec), let them fill it.

 

Hmm, I did talk about Guardian Leap/Intercede some, I did not mention the AoE taunt part of it though. I mentioned how it gave 8% self-heal with the vindicator 2 set bonus. I will admit, that even though I have a Shadow and a Guardian tank, my shadow tank is my main, and I've played my Guardian tank far less than my Shadow tank, so it's possible I may not know as much about the Guardian tank :). What spec do you use?

Edited by NamikazeNaruto
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Hmm, I did talk about Guardian Leap/Intercede some, I did not mention the AoE taunt part of it though. I mentioned how it gave 8% self-heal with the vindicator 2 set bonus. I will admit, that even though I have a Shadow and a Guardian tank, my shadow tank is my main, and I've played my Guardian tank far less than my Shadow tank, so it's possible I may not know as much about the Guardian tank :). What spec do you use?

 

Sorry! I figured it missed it :)

 

Below is what I'm currently running. You can still do some decent DPS with this spec and can run it with a mix of DPS and tank gear (My saber/belt/bracer are DPS, modded 27s pve armorings). What's nice is that when you want to you can pretty much become unkillable (for 10seconds-ish) even without a healer. Popping cooldowns + WZ adrenal + your passive damage reduction means an entire team of 8 couldn't kill you before your cooldowns wear out. If you can somehow get a leap in there for the extra 20% damage reduction.... That's 94% damage reduction before taking armor into consideration (this is the unkillable part). You'll take so little damage in fact that your small heals from focused defense will probably keep you at 100% health.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/guardian#21j1k28-211ie228f-0

Edited by CharterMonkKent
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Sorry! I figured it missed it :)

 

Below is what I'm currently running. You can still do some decent DPS with this spec and can run it with a mix of DPS and tank gear (My saber/belt/bracer are DPS, modded 27s pve armorings). What's nice is that when you want to you can pretty much become unkillable (for 10seconds-ish) even without a healer. Popping cooldowns + WZ adrenal + your passive damage reduction means an entire team of 8 couldn't kill you before your cooldowns wear out. If you can somehow get a leap in there for the extra 20% damage reduction.... That's 94% damage reduction before taking armor into consideration (this is the unkillable part). You'll take so little damage in fact that your small heals from focused defense will probably keep you at 100% health.

 

http://swtor.askmrrobot.com/skills/guardian#21j1k28-211ie228f-0

 

Hmm... this is the spec I figured you were talking about... ok. So, in order to get Commanding Awe, which is probably a bit better than Inner Peace, and reduced cooldown on Awe, you've sacrificed an extra CC in hilt strike, and Freezing Force is no longer spammable. Also, you sacrificed reduced cooldown on force push, and your 4% shield chance, and of course, Inner Peace. I am not quite sure if that is worth it to be honest.

Edited by NamikazeNaruto
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Hmm... this is the spec I figured you were talking about... ok. So, in order to get Commanding Awe, which is probably a bit better than Inner Peace, and reduced cooldown on Awe, you've sacrificed an extra CC in hilt strike, and Freezing Force is no longer spammable. Also, you sacrificed reduced cooldown on force push, and your 4% shield chance, and of course, Inner Peace. I am not quite sure if that is worth it to be honest.

 

Yep. I still think it's worth it because of the increase in CC, up time (damage reduction) and increase in damage.

 

Now if the devs get smart and move commanding awe to the tanking tree jugg/guard tanks could have the tools to run 31 point. I don't know if they would ever do that because focused defense reduces threat which is a no-no for tanks in raids.

 

I say give it a shot and see what you think. I actually ran this spec in my min/max rage/focus gear a few times, it was really fun. Kind of like the old Iron Fist PT tank hybrid spec. It wasn't great at DPS or Tanking, but it was better than average at both.

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