I don't understand your point. In warzones, faction population does not matter. How is this compare to classic Ilum?

 

On my server I have have 4 toons on each factions. 2 55 Pubs and 2 55 Imps and 2 lowbies on each side.

 

I get instant queue pops on my Imps toons because of faction vs faction there is always a match to enter.

 

On my all Pub toons it takes forever to get a queue pop. There just isn't enough Pubs queued up for WZ and ranked.

Wow, amazing discussion. The problem is most of the ideas presented will finish killing PVP in SWTOR. The only difference is how fast it happens.

 

Force everyone into one queue and most people will just stop playing altogether.

 

Remove ranked comms completely from regular wzs and people will stop trying to get into ranked. This will lead to everyone being back in one queue and most people will stop playing.

 

Only reward victors, people can't get better gear and lose more so they drop back to regular wzs. Now there won't be enough playing ranked so they'll be back in regular, too. People again get tired of losing all the time and getting nothing and stop playing.

 

Don't you see the problem with this? Anything that limits who can play will eventually cut the pool to the point that you don't have enough participants to play. You want more people playing and you want them playing in pools where they can learn but at the same time have enough success to keep wanting to play, get gear that lets them move up and get them into better pools over time. All of the above ideas and their permutations do the exact opposite and will kill PVP.

 

If you want PVP to work, you need to match like with like. So if you have bunch of under-geared people, they need to be matched with other under-geared people. Premades need to be matched with premades. People in top end gear need to be matched with people in top end gear. People who are playing need to actually teach newer people who don't really know what to do. Yes, teaching can be frustrating. It takes time. People may even hear what you are saying but not understand what you are telling them to do, so you have to keep teaching. Eventually it'll sink in for most and they'll get better, get better gear and move up. but the ley is to let people feel successful at what they are doing and let them have fun learning it. Any idea that makes it harder to get in, harder to learn, harder to get better gear is simply going to cut your number of participants and eventually kill PVP. I would hope most of you can actually step back and do the math to see that.

If you want PVP to work, you need to match like with like. So if you have bunch of under-geared people, they need to be matched with other under-geared people. Premades need to be matched with premades. People in top end gear need to be matched with people in top end gear. People who are playing need to actually teach newer people who don't really know what to do. Yes, teaching can be frustrating. It takes time. People may even hear what you are saying but not understand what you are telling them to do, so you have to keep teaching. Eventually it'll sink in for most and they'll get better, get better gear and move up. but the ley is to let people feel successful at what they are doing and let them have fun learning it. Any idea that makes it harder to get in, harder to learn, harder to get better gear is simply going to cut your number of participants and eventually kill PVP. I would hope most of you can actually step back and do the math to see that.

 

Great concept, but can you propose a system that implements this concept? Putting human factors aside such as people teaching each other, can you propose a system that somewhat enforces this concept to a successful extent?

On my server I have have 4 toons on each factions. 2 55 Pubs and 2 55 Imps and 2 lowbies on each side.

 

I get instant queue pops on my Imps toons because of faction vs faction there is always a match to enter.

 

On my all Pub toons it takes forever to get a queue pop. There just isn't enough Pubs queued up for WZ and ranked.

 

If Republic population is so low on your server that Pub toons can't even get WZ pops, then I don't think any changes, or no changes at all, can save your server.

Wow, amazing discussion. The problem is most of the ideas presented will finish killing PVP in SWTOR. The only difference is how fast it happens.

 

Force everyone into one queue and most people will just stop playing altogether.

 

Remove ranked comms completely from regular wzs and people will stop trying to get into ranked. This will lead to everyone being back in one queue and most people will stop playing.

 

Only reward victors, people can't get better gear and lose more so they drop back to regular wzs. Now there won't be enough playing ranked so they'll be back in regular, too. People again get tired of losing all the time and getting nothing and stop playing.

 

Don't you see the problem with this? Anything that limits who can play will eventually cut the pool to the point that you don't have enough participants to play. You want more people playing and you want them playing in pools where they can learn but at the same time have enough success to keep wanting to play, get gear that lets them move up and get them into better pools over time. All of the above ideas and their permutations do the exact opposite and will kill PVP.

 

If you want PVP to work, you need to match like with like. So if you have bunch of under-geared people, they need to be matched with other under-geared people. Premades need to be matched with premades. People in top end gear need to be matched with people in top end gear. People who are playing need to actually teach newer people who don't really know what to do. Yes, teaching can be frustrating. It takes time. People may even hear what you are saying but not understand what you are telling them to do, so you have to keep teaching. Eventually it'll sink in for most and they'll get better, get better gear and move up. but the ley is to let people feel successful at what they are doing and let them have fun learning it. Any idea that makes it harder to get in, harder to learn, harder to get better gear is simply going to cut your number of participants and eventually kill PVP. I would hope most of you can actually step back and do the math to see that.

 

if they had cross server, you'd be right. the game's population is way too low to support this theory. people are only in regs and solo queue to get the gear. and then once they are top geared, they want to feel like a hero but still barely stand out in regs.

 

i guarantee you that whatever path you lead the sheep, they will go, whether it's the most fun to them or not. the majority of pvpers would probably like to at least try 4v4, but they know with the low populations, they will have to get stomped by people much better than them. if they knew that they'd have to make teams and queue up just like everyone else, they'd get more even competition with the occasional whooping, just like it is now in regs.

 

instead, people know they can just stay in regs and solo queue forever and not have to worry about getting better or facing actual competition.

It seems like your belief is that you want to discourage all the "bads" from participating and only want the "elite" playing.

This!!!

 

and...

Wow, amazing discussion. The problem is most of the ideas presented will finish killing PVP in SWTOR. The only difference is how fast it happens.

THIS!

 

SWTOR, despite ANYTHING some of you may think, is a CASUAL game. If you're going to punish people for not winning, you'll destroy the pool of possible PvPers. If you so badly want "real competition", form a 4-man group and queue. By making top end gear only available to the winners of any WZ, you will bring about the destruction of PvP in this game.

 

Instead of trying to insult me for thinking this **** through, maybe think beyond the sheer stupidity of only making the most powerful teams/players more powerful - we've been down that road before in this game and it was destructive as hell to PvP. You NEED to allow players to progress as players, you NEED to encourage participation in activities - why the hell do you think Ops/Fps drop new gear and tokens and crap like that? Every activity yields 'stuff'...it's how MMO designers get players to play different parts of the game.

casuals aka bads, can get their fix in normal wz or solo queue. it doesn't need to reward the best gear.

 

participation (for 99% of "pvpers") is only because of a desire to get the best set of gear. if the best set of gear is only accessible through team ranked, then people are forced to participate in order to get it.

 

if you can't see this, you are bad and i bid you to stay small

 

you must be so good at this game that you never ever lose. Do you truly think losers want to lose? Do you truly think all losing teams are made up of casual players who only farm medals and comms? you might've been lucky enough to join one of those elitist pvp guilds which help you get better at pvp. Not everyone is lucky as you! you might've been playing wow for years in your basement to hone your pvp skills. Not everyone is as experienced as you!

 

Average pvpers like myself can never be able to become one of those top players in the server. why?Because guys like me have never been as fortunate as you people. For us this is our first MMO. We don't have skilled friends from

WOW to form a pro pvp guild.We may play and study hard to compete with you folks. But we don't have experience to win against a truly skilled pvp team from WOW. Besides you elitists only play with your fellow elitist friends anyway. So don't criticize our mediocrity when guys like you haven't done much to help us out. Have fun playing with yourselves.

you must be so good at this game that you never ever lose. Do you truly think losers want to lose? Do you truly think all losing teams are made up of casual players who only farm medals and comms? you might've been lucky enough to join one of those elitist pvp guilds which help you get better at pvp. Not everyone is lucky as you! you might've been playing wow for years in your basement to hone your pvp skills. Not everyone is as experienced as you!

 

Average pvpers like myself can never be able to become one of those top players in the server. why?Because guys like me have never been as fortunate as you people. For us this is our first MMO. We don't have skilled friends from

WOW to form a pro pvp guild.We may play and study hard to compete with you folks. But we don't have experience to win against a truly skilled pvp team from WOW. Besides you elitists only play with your fellow elitist friends anyway. So don't criticize our mediocrity when guys like you haven't done much to help us out. Have fun playing with yourselves.

 

cuz guys like you whine on the forums instead of seeking out good players to become better

 

nice basement analogy btw.

 

even in lolpve, they don't get rewarded for failing. if they want the best gear, they actually have to down the boss. amazing concept i know. fps, story mode, dailies and whatever give nice gear that casuals can do, or hardcores when they're bored...much like regs and solo queue should be for pvpers

 

team ranked, aka nightmare raiding, should give the best gear and encourage people to compete against others, but also to individually improve and learn to work as a team.

I'd even take it a step further and say you only get ranked comms for winning, to discourage general chat "loser/comm farm groups".

 

Won't happen because majority of players wouldn't want it, and even then I'm not convinced BW would do it.

Edited November 15, 2013 by Stncold

cuz guys like you whine on the forums instead of seeking out good players to become better

 

nice basement analogy btw.

 

even in lolpve, they don't get rewarded for failing. if they want the best gear, they actually have to down the boss. amazing concept i know. fps, story mode, dailies and whatever give nice gear that casuals can do, or hardcores when they're bored...much like regs and solo queue should be for pvpers

 

team ranked, aka nightmare raiding, should give the best gear and encourage people to compete against others, but also to individually improve and learn to work as a team.

You make me laugh. Seeking out good players to become better? Since when blue blooded elitists have time to teach anything to mediocre or above average players? They are too busy growing their pvpness to help out they call "baddies". Besides if their faction sucks, they abandon their faction and switch to other winning faction to farm easy wins anyway. You don't have time nor guts to endure hardships and help your faction grow stronger do you?

 

You are also stupid to compare pve to pvp. NPCs are predictable and can be easily killed once you figure out how to kill them. PVP environments , however, has many more variables. You react to your enemy's moves instead of planning your moves ahead. What works against a particular player will not work against other players. And if you happen to go against a really skilled pvp team, it becomes nearly impossible to win. Rewarding only the winners will make most average pvpers to quit pvping altogether.

You make me laugh. Seeking out good players to become better? Since when blue blooded elitists have time to teach anything to mediocre or above average players? They are too busy growing their pvpness to help out they call "baddies". Besides if their faction sucks, they abandon their faction and switch to other winning faction to farm easy wins anyway. You don't have time nor guts to endure hardships and help your faction grow stronger do you?

 

You are also stupid to compare pve to pvp. NPCs are predictable and can be easily killed once you figure out how to kill them. PVP environments , however, has many more variables. You react to your enemy's moves instead of planning your moves ahead. What works against a particular player will not work against other players. And if you happen to go against a really skilled pvp team, it becomes nearly impossible to win. Rewarding only the winners will make most average pvpers to quit pvping altogether.

 

there's a place for even average pvpers. in wow it was called rival or challenger. did you earn those titles at least?

 

i help people all the time on pot5 who send me tells or talk to me in mumble (since i'm one of the few people to successfully do 4s on a merc and sorc since pts). i do not respond well to forum whiners, naysayers, or people in general chat on fleet.

 

while you are right that pvp requires more awareness and decision making, the concept is still the same. rewarding for success, not average play or failure. overcoming obstacles, improving dps, hps, tanking...whatever...in order to defeat what is in front of you. sounds rp...but that's really what pvp is too.

I wish in non-ranked we can CHOOSE to play arena so the guys who need and WANT to improve for ranked can practice without the random WZ's. That, and combining servers would go a long way.

 

However, there's no perfect solution with such a small playerbase.

 

Z

cuz guys like you whine on the forums instead of seeking out good players to become better

 

nice basement analogy btw.

 

even in lolpve, they don't get rewarded for failing. if they want the best gear, they actually have to down the boss. amazing concept i know. fps, story mode, dailies and whatever give nice gear that casuals can do, or hardcores when they're bored...much like regs and solo queue should be for pvpers

 

team ranked, aka nightmare raiding, should give the best gear and encourage people to compete against others, but also to individually improve and learn to work as a team.

 

This. Dont think it can be said any better.

 

The massive double standard that exists is awful. Ranked PvP is not a casual playground; that is what Regs are for.

Looks like a lot of PvPers actually want ranked to be exclusive to the hardcore PvPers. If that is the case, then the current system is actually as good as it can get.

 

Can't complain about the small ranked participants pool, because that is actually how many hardcore PvPers there are. And can't complain about BW not implementing cross-server, because such small pool of players does not warrant the commitment of so much resources. It does not make sense from the business perspective.

 

In the end, unless PvPers let go of the illusion of self-given grandeur from being competitive hardcore PvPers at SWTOR PvP, we are stuck with the current state of SWTOR PvP.

I agree, the system is self-destructive, however, what you're proposing will do nothing to increase PVP participation. The only thing the Dev's need to do is base your PVP rating on the current system. Your pvp rating should be based on Medals earned while your in WZ's. I would also offer a balanced incentive for winning. Like if you get 25 wins in a week, you get bonus points added to your pvp rating. With this system, even if your team sucks, and you're doing your job, you won't be penalized so severely as you are now in solo ranked Q. From what I've seen everyone tries out the ranked PVP for about a week, once the exploiters, bolster manipulators, and FOTM"s start flooding the Q's, many players will get tired of it and revert back to regular WZ's. That's why the PVP rating should be based on what people like doing best, qeuing regular WZ's. You still have a Q for team ranked, however don't reward them with better gear, just better looking gear, exclusive mounts, pets, and titles. That way everyone wins, and this will keep the WZ ques healthy and rewarding.

PvP daily and weekly. Is it really so bad on your server that Republic have no chance of winning at all?

 

Empire PvP on Harbinger has gotten so bad that last night the premade my (Republic) guild was running started spotting them points in matches...purposely letting them plant the first door, get the the first score in HB, get 2 caps in NC and CW, or not getting our pylon the first round of AH.

Players que for ranked, they get beat by top teams consistently, they get discouraged and stop queing.

 

That's normal. Top teams need cannon fodder, you know ? How else would they be able to prove that they are top ?

 

Plus, easy wins are easy wins.

 

It seems like your belief is that you want to discourage all the "bads" from participating and only want the "elite" playing.

 

Of course. That plus that the game should be balanced around them.

 

And then the QQ begins because of no-one playing Ranked anymore ... Mission fulfilled ... Be proud of it.

 

Do you truly think losers want to lose? Do you truly think all losing teams are made up of casual players who only farm medals and comms?

 

I suppose, yes, he does.

 

I can't understand his opinion otherwise.

 

Seeking out good players to become better? Since when blue blooded elitists have time to teach anything to mediocre or above average players? They are too busy growing their pvpness to help out they call "baddies".

 

That's what being an Elite player is constituted of : Never helping whom they discriminate as "bads".

Edited November 17, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

Can't complain about the small ranked participants pool, because that is actually how many hardcore PvPers there are.

 

And that'd definitively how they want it to be : A small, elusive & exclusive circle. No-one is let in, except those whom they chose to be allowed to let in.

 

And that's why I just don't want to read their QQ about "too few players for Ranked" anymore ... You have chose it to be so. So whining about the Ranked player pool to be "too small" is nothing but adding double standards ...

 

casuals aka bads

 

[...]

 

if you can't see this, you are bad and i bid you to stay small

 

Nice insults. Well done.

 

Translation : "I want to remain in my closed circle."

Edited November 17, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

There is no real way to save the TORtanic. Even if they make a change to the PvP system as you suggest it will only be a matter of time before it goes through the same process of weeding out the bad teams and drying up until it's a dead game.

but if you just get destoryed it is not only not fun, but you dont learn anything.

 

When I wrote tzhat for the very first time (ijn the German SWTOR PvP forums), I was laughed at.They called me a "whiner". I was around level 20 when the only bracket in existence was level 10 - 50. I was laughed at and called a whiner because I complained that a low-level person without any expertise - Recruit gear came at level 50, then - could be destroyed in seconds by any higher level player.

And when I complained that getting destroyed within max. 5 seconds kept me from learning anything, they wrote that this was not true.

 

and scold is right, only winning SHOULD be rewarded.

 

Translation : "Those who have will be given even more.

 

If a team gets beaten all day long and they get nothing from getting beaten all day long they might, just might, at one point just stop queuing doing work for nothing.

 

Just if I will refuse to go to work if my boss just doesn't pay me.

 

There are people out there who just aren't masochists.

 

It's Queue!

 

Giving victor comms won't work because most servers have way too many Imps and not enough Pubs and it will be the Illum fiasco all over again. Imps will be fully geared and Pubs will still be waiting to finish their weekly.

 

As visible on the Leaderboards.

 

i guess you were bad at sports growing up and needed your participation ribbon as well

 

Arrogance isn't maling you friends. But wait, you will now tell me that you already have friends. Loike-minded ones, of course.

 

Well, outside of your circles you probably don't have many other.minded friends.

 

Me, I was one of the best runners available at school. But I got beaten, because my body allowed me to move only so much. At this point, I felt that I was physicalkly not able to run faster, because of my body constraints ( I was quite short of statue, and winning against someone of 2 metres height was difficult. There probably is a reason why basketball players are usually never beneath 1,90 metres high.)

 

play an xbox game if you want fun and to feel like a hero

 

Play an PvP game if you want fun and feel like a hero.

Edited March 18, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer

The rating system works there just aren't enough teams to support it. If 100 teams queued there would be competitive games. If 4 teams are queued all separated by 300 rating it will not work. It could. It easily could. It's just teams don't want to put in the time and the month of getting stomped before you're good enough to even begin to compete. What bioware should do is put NPC teams in ranked arenas and lie and say they're actual players. Who gives a **** right? If it works as well as I think it will we can have the NPC teams play each other when all the pvpers leave the game.

The rating system works there just aren't enough teams to support it.

 

No-one ever asks "why are there not enough teams to support it ?" No-one.

This is not really hard to fix.

 

1) Ranked coms from ranked wz only.

 

2) 2000 ranked players are NEVER matched with 1200 ranked players.

 

The nonsensical idea that 1200 ranked players would rather get destroyed by 2000 rank players instead of waiting is just stupid. Sorry, it really is. We don't pit MLB players again BBB players just to increase the frequency of games. BW shouldn't either. Ironically, if 1200 ranked players could fight other 1200 ranked players, they participation rate would go up!

Here's how you fix ranked:

 

Implement cross server queues or remove ranked altogether.

this is how you fix ranked

 

solo queue and reg wz reward ZERO ranked comms. a ranked solo queue is dumb when you're praying to the rng gods

 

no dailies or weeklies for regs which reward ranked comms. no converting wz comms into ranked

 

ranked comms only come from team arena

 

people are only doing solo queue now until they get all the gear faster. then they will be back in regs to barely break 300k or whatever it is 99% of you do

 

that is the only way to increase participation without cross server, but it makes too much sense so bioware won't do it.

this wouldn't bother me except then you'd have to put a gear restriction on "regs" so that ppl aren't farming regs with gear they got with rated comms and those in regs do not have access to. but I do like the idea of "if you want rated gear, do rated." that's how it was way back...geez...I don't even remember. WoW in the day maybe? the first pvp I ever played, that was just common sense: if you wanted the best gear, you had to do rated.

 

edit: I think a minimum gear requirement for both forms of rated would be easier to implement and accomplish pretty much the same thing.

Edited March 19, 2014 by foxmob