Why on earth would anyone need a DPS meter for TOR?

 

Ive done the PVP

Ive done the OPS storymode

Ive done the ops hardmode (excluding EC but its coming)

 

You dont need a DPS Meter to understand where it went wrong and what area is responsible!

And you dont need a dps meter to know if your pumping out enough dps or not

 

And as for nightmare mode.

I dont see groups that dont regularly play togather doing nightmare so thats also a non issue!

 

Anything under that is so simple that if someone needs a dps meter to understand where something went wrong.

Id be looking at the entire group, not just any single person(s).

Hardmode flashpoints arnt that hardmode really

Storymode flashpoints even easier

Heroics are even easier then storymode

and anything under that is soloable (heck many of the 2 and 4 man heroics soloable with companion)

 

Of all the games Ive seen through out my 21 years in MMORPGs,

This game is the least of the list for needing a working dps meter!

I could not agree more.

i'm more or less ok with things are right now.

I do not fear meters, i know i am doing a decent job (i analysed log after raid and compare with my guild's friend). If they are in game, i'm ok, if they aren't, we'll do without. It's good enough for us to all upload our log to a third party website and analyse it after the raid.

The only thing, the only thing i would like them to do, is raid wide combat log, or at very least an option on the preference menu to broadcast your combat log to other player in the raid, so that sharing still remain voluntary. It sometimes is a hassle to combined 8 or 16 logs, some people forget to turn on their combat log or disconnect and get their combat log truncated, some people does not know how to find and upload their log and some players don't want to even bother (not saying they are bad player, they just can't be bothered).

So broadcasting your info and you get 1 or 2 person willing to make the upload, that'd much better. i think that solution would just satisfy everyone, or nearly everyone.

i'm more or less ok with things are right now.

 

I do not fear meters, i know i am doing a decent job (i analysed log after raid and compare with my guild's friend). If they are in game, i'm ok, if they aren't, we'll do without. It's good enough for us to all upload our log to a third party website and analyse it after the raid.

 

 

The only thing, the only thing i would like them to do, is raid wide combat log, or at very least an option on the preference menu to broadcast your combat log to other player in the raid, so that sharing still remain voluntary. It sometimes is a hassle to combined 8 or 16 logs, some people forget to turn on their combat log or disconnect and get their combat log truncated, some people does not know how to find and upload their log and some players don't want to even bother (not saying they are bad player, they just can't be bothered).

 

So broadcasting your info and you get 1 or 2 person willing to make the upload, that'd much better. i think that solution would just satisfy everyone, or nearly everyone.

A conbat log is not the same as a dps meter. Like u stated it is no issue for me. U can see alot more then just dps numbers and it is free of use. but a dps add on is smtg else. But really u must admid that the game is doing fine without and theire are far more important things to be changed then a meter....

Why on earth would anyone need a DPS meter for TOR?

 

Ive done the PVP

Ive done the OPS storymode

Ive done the ops hardmode (excluding EC but its coming)

 

You dont need a DPS Meter to understand where it went wrong and what area is responsible!

And you dont need a dps meter to know if your pumping out enough dps or not

 

And as for nightmare mode.

I dont see groups that dont regularly play togather doing nightmare so thats also a non issue!

 

Anything under that is so simple that if someone needs a dps meter to understand where something went wrong.

Id be looking at the entire group, not just any single person(s).

Hardmode flashpoints arnt that hardmode really

Storymode flashpoints even easier

Heroics are even easier then storymode

and anything under that is soloable (heck many of the 2 and 4 man heroics soloable with companion)

 

Of all the games Ive seen through out my 21 years in MMORPGs,

This game is the least of the list for needing a working dps meter!

Maybe when you start doing content which requires 8/16 players that need to be somewhat coordinated then you will see why you need to make sure people are pulling their weight. I don't see any reason not to use a dps parser such as mox while you raid unless your worried that you aren't pulling what you should be, unless of course you are playing the game on a casual basis. Those aiming for progression and farming endgame content nearly always use parsers. It's a tool to compare yourself to others and then work on improving, also it's useful to analyse mechanics and then work out a more effective way to clear specific content. I'm all about using everything and every opportunity to improve.

It may just come down to a different interpretation of fun, but personally I only find it fun when I know im pulling my weight as a dps and am able to see where I need to improve. Then again, I respect that many may call my play-style "elitist".

Maybe when you start doing content which requires 8/16 players that need to be somewhat coordinated then you will see why you need to make sure people are pulling their weight. I don't see any reason not to use a dps parser such as mox while you raid unless your worried that you aren't pulling what you should be, unless of course you are playing the game on a casual basis. Those aiming for progression and farming endgame content nearly always use parsers. It's a tool to compare yourself to others and then work on improving, also it's useful to analyse mechanics and then work out a more effective way to clear specific content. I'm all about using everything and every opportunity to improve.

 

It may just come down to a different interpretation of fun, but personally I only find it fun when I know im pulling my weight as a dps and am able to see where I need to improve. Then again, I respect that many may call my play-style "elitist".

Not really. My raid team is currently progressing through TFB HM (we've spent all of an hour, maybe 1.5, in there so far, due to some RL stuff and we killed the first boss). They dabbled in using a 3rd party parser, but ultimately realized that having the realtime parsing stuff going on was detrimental. It's so easy to just focus on that and forget that you need to do other stuff too, like control aggro and deal with other fight conditions that might decrease your personal dps.

So, no, progression raiders do not "nearly always" use parsers. They're simply not necessary. Do they make things a bit easier. Sure, I guess so. Are they even remotely close to necessary? Nope, and I hope they never are, because that's when the fun gets sucked out of the game.

Not really. My raid team is currently progressing through TFB HM (we've spent all of an hour, maybe 1.5, in there so far, due to some RL stuff and we killed the first boss). They dabbled in using a 3rd party parser, but ultimately realized that having the realtime parsing stuff going on was detrimental. It's so easy to just focus on that and forget that you need to do other stuff too, like control aggro and deal with other fight conditions that might decrease your personal dps.

 

So, no, progression raiders do not "nearly always" use parsers. They're simply not necessary. Do they make things a bit easier. Sure, I guess so. Are they even remotely close to necessary? Nope, and I hope they never are, because that's when the fun gets sucked out of the game.

If you're sitting there looking at the meters during the fight and not paying attention to mechanics then you're doing something wrong. They are there to analyse after the fight and fix problems. One of the dps is only doing 1k in BiS? You now know and can fix it. Tanks taking more damage on specific platforms of TFB HM last boss? You can see and make changes accordingly. Plus, I find them fun to see where I sit compared to other classes/specs on bosses.

Maybe I should have changed it to "if you are a serious progression raider then you would in most cases have used a dps meter at some point". Once again, it is a tool to improve your performance. Use it or not, its up to you.

Maybe when you start doing content which requires 8/16 players that need to be somewhat coordinated then you will see why you need to make sure people are pulling their weight. I don't see any reason not to use a dps parser such as mox while you raid unless your worried that you aren't pulling what you should be, unless of course you are playing the game on a casual basis. Those aiming for progression and farming endgame content nearly always use parsers. It's a tool to compare yourself to others and then work on improving, also it's useful to analyse mechanics and then work out a more effective way to clear specific content. I'm all about using everything and every opportunity to improve.

 

It may just come down to a different interpretation of fun, but personally I only find it fun when I know im pulling my weight as a dps and am able to see where I need to improve. Then again, I respect that many may call my play-style "elitist".

What part of ops storymode and ops hardmode didnt you get from my post?

Ive done the 8 man stuff.

DPS meter not needed or required

as for 16, maybe you got a point there!

Though I know numberous people that did do successful 16 man runs and not one of them mentioned needing a DPS Meter for problem analyzist of any kinda!

They all knew where they were strong and where they were weak in and what to work on with out the numbers.

As for pullling your own weight

You call yourself an elitists and you cant tell if your pulling your own weight??????

You know the damage does apear as you do it on screen right?

Somehow many many many people know when they do a 4-5-10k hit in 16 man pvp or ops,

why cant you?

I dont care one way or other about DPS Meters personally

I have a dedicated ops group so I focus on team work over personal glory and numbers

but spare the song and dance about them being required or needed in TOR as its simply not true

I say again, anything short of Nightmare, hardmode EC, or yes I guess 16 man ops doesnt really need a DPS Meter to see how you did and where any issues may lay.

And I dont see the above content groups picking up many pugs to fill spots on said content so they already know what they getting and what they can expect from those in attendance.

As for personal glory,

I wouldnt call you elitist for that

and lets leave it at that

My advice, pay attention and you will know roughly the range of damage your doing consistantly

PS: If its pvp wz, they tell you your damage at end of warzone in the tally sheet.

PPS: My Ops character is a main healer so my DPS meter is when everyone laying dead on the ground or not!

I couldnt care less if I do a 2k or 10k heal

All im focused on is keeping everyone up and moving on to next stage

And when learning EC I screwed up majorly multiple times and didnt need a DPS meter to tell me what I was doing wrong and where. Some self reflection afterwards and trusted conversation on tactics, not numbers, was all thats needed. Very next time up, slight change in position on me and tank and bam, 2 dead bosses and onto next stage.

But if your REALLY focused on the dps output,

heres some free advice

Boss = dead = good dps

Boss = Enraged = need more dps

That pretty much covers any 4-8-16 man situation you run into

See, simple

You may want a DPS meter for ego

But its not required in TOR

What part of ops storymode and ops hardmode didnt you get from my post?

 

Ive done the 8 man stuff.

DPS meter not needed or required

 

as for 16, maybe you got a point there!

Though I know numberous people that did do successful 16 man runs and not one of them mentioned needing a DPS Meter for problem analyzist of any kinda!

They all knew where they were strong and where they were weak in and what to work on with out the numbers.

 

As for pullling your own weight

You call yourself an elitists and you cant tell if your pulling your own weight??????

You know the damage does apear as you do it on screen right?

Somehow many many many people know when they do a 4-5-10k hit in 16 man pvp or ops,

why cant you?

 

I dont care one way or other about DPS Meters personally

I have a dedicated ops group so I focus on team work over personal glory and numbers

but spare the song and dance about them being required or needed in TOR as its simply not true

 

I say again, anything short of Nightmare, hardmode EC, or yes I guess 16 man ops doesnt really need a DPS Meter to see how you did and where any issues may lay.

And I dont see the above content groups picking up many pugs to fill spots on said content so they already know what they getting and what they can expect from those in attendance.

 

As for personal glory,

I wouldnt call you elitist for that

and lets leave it at that

 

My advice, pay attention and you will know roughly the range of damage your doing consistantly

 

PS: If its pvp wz, they tell you your damage at end of warzone in the tally sheet.

 

PPS: My Ops character is a main healer so my DPS meter is when everyone laying dead on the ground or not!

I couldnt care less if I do a 2k or 10k heal

All im focused on is keeping everyone up and moving on to next stage

 

And when learning EC I screwed up majorly multiple times and didnt need a DPS meter to tell me what I was doing wrong and where. Some self reflection afterwards and trusted conversation on tactics, not numbers, was all thats needed. Very next time up, slight change in position on me and tank and bam, 2 dead bosses and onto next stage.

 

But if your REALLY focused on the dps output,

heres some free advice

Boss = dead = good dps

Boss = Enraged = need more dps

That pretty much covers any 4-8-16 man situation you run into

 

See, simple

 

You may want a DPS meter for ego

But its not required in TOR

Sorry, I keep forgetting to mention that I'm not talking about anything under HM TFB. Anything under that at this point is somewhat trivial. You also make it quite obvious you don't know what your talking about when you say "Somehow many many many people know when they do a 4-5-10k hit in 16 man pvp or ops,

why cant you?". Even though you aren't a DPS you should know that boss fights are about a mixture of sustained and burst dps. It means very little seeing damage peel off a boss. If you're sitting there watching the damage then you're doing something wrong. Maybe if you started using a DPS meter with skilled players you would see the difference in damage even from tanks.

Also, people do pug for all content surprisingly. Sometimes people have RL commitments and can't make it to raids - hence pugging. I never said dps meters were a necessity. I never stated that EVERYONE MUST USE ONE!!1!11one1!. All I stated is that more progression and endgame orientated raiders will tend to use them whereas casuals wont.

P.S. The point you seemed to miss was the fact that I wasn't explicitly talking about measuring myself, but others as well. It's useful to be able to know how much dps OTHER people are doing in case we need to split dps for fights or make a dps swap.

No sir. Bioware's made it clear - no in-game addons ... and they're sticking to it. Which is fine by me personally as I left WoW because it got to the point where the challenge was in mastering the mods instead of the game. The only "mod" (if you will) that I felt the game lacked at launch was a customizable UI. That was handled rather nicely with the 1.2 patch back in April.

This. Mods end up beeing cheating tools that will give you unfair advatageous, and one of the reasons why WoW PvP is a joke. The basis of every PvP experience has to be to have everyone play under the same conditions and with the same tools.

This. Mods end up beeing cheating tools that will give you unfair advatageous, and one of the reasons why WoW PvP is a joke. The basis of every PvP experience has to be to have everyone play under the same conditions and with the same tools.

SWTOR doesn't even do this. You have people vastly out-gearing others in the 50 pvp bracket. For it to be equal there would have to be no expertise. Or simply have a wait room like GW2 where you have the ability to freely customise your gear how you see fit.

I would prefer not to see damage parsers in this game because of the damage I have seen them do in others. Since this game does not really have buffing classes it probably won't do as much damage but I still really don't want to see them again.

Those parsers have ruined so many things in games like EQ1 or EQ2 where people decide that someone needs to do more dps and instead ends up pulling aggro off the tank and wiping the group. Overall I just find that it encourages bad behavior in games and leads to a lot more difficulties.

I have run into some people in this game already where when I have been the tank after a fight I try to heal up but the dps have already run off to attack another target while the healer and I are trying to recover from the last one. The group sometimes then ends up wiping and the dps are the ones that get upset when all they had to do is wait about 5 seconds.

We don't need even more incentives for people to be sugar hyped morons.

Mmmmm, why do I have a smell of a troll?

definitely. and a successful one.

We don't need that garbage in this game. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand what the problem is when a boss doesn't die.

If you really want to know your combat log, turn on logging and dump it into a 3rd party parsing program.

As you can clearly see in this thread, most of the long term raiders left the game, casuals dont use to like DPS/HPS/Threat meters.

Translated from MMOElitist into English:

As you can see in this thread, most of the elitist game snobs left the game, normal people don't see a point in DPS/HPS/Threat meters, as they're here for fun, not to impress other snobs.

No sir. Bioware's made it clear - no in-game addons ... and they're sticking to it. Which is fine by me personally as I left WoW because it got to the point where the challenge was in mastering the mods instead of the game. The only "mod" (if you will) that I felt the game lacked at launch was a customizable UI. That was handled rather nicely with the 1.2 patch back in April.

The one thing I will say about add-ons is that in WoW there have been a number of add-ons that have become features of the game. the advantage of having add-ons is that you increase the "developer pool" many times over. The disadvantage is that there are a lot of add-ons that will be junk.

Maybe something for BioWare to think about - Apple approves every app that end up in the app store. There are quite literally thousands of apps that never make it. If BioWare did the same thing with add-ons there could be a lot of good features implemented with little to no time and money spent by BioWare.

On the subject of DPS meters. If used correctly - to HELP players get better - it is a useful tool. the problem is that it is NOT universally used correctly. There will ALWAYS be elitists who shove meters in the faces of those who do not do as well as they do, and will kick players from groups because of it even though they are doing sufficiently well to clear the content - just not fast enough for the elitists.

the dps meters are so... can i say it? "idiotic"

How many people got frustrated, dissapointed, discarted, from guilds... as this kind of little freak programs, feed actually the casual mmos... So basically u end up being a robot... nothing to do, except hiting hard the others and or the npcs, to be a good player? so noobish... It doesnt make it more interesting, but even more problematic... at the end.

I would suggest to stay away from this programs and focus in a more open world experience... and with less bugs.

Also, if they bring in game adons.. we have other problems than just raiding and pvping... Account hacking, private servers (as this programs help other crack the code more easily, etc) For example there is addons in wow, that communicate all the time with the owners of this program.. and turn them in informations regards ur playstyle and account.. (eg auction house and farming programs) They all started from just a "dps" meter though, and they got involved even further after.

The one thing I will say about add-ons is that in WoW there have been a number of add-ons that have become features of the game. the advantage of having add-ons is that you increase the "developer pool" many times over. The disadvantage is that there are a lot of add-ons that will be junk.

 

Maybe something for BioWare to think about - Apple approves every app that end up in the app store. There are quite literally thousands of apps that never make it. If BioWare did the same thing with add-ons there could be a lot of good features implemented with little to no time and money spent by BioWare.

 

On the subject of DPS meters. If used correctly - to HELP players get better - it is a useful tool. the problem is that it is NOT universally used correctly. There will ALWAYS be elitists who shove meters in the faces of those who do not do as well as they do, and will kick players from groups because of it even though they are doing sufficiently well to clear the content - just not fast enough for the elitists.

No sir. Bioware's made it clear - no in-game addons ... and they're sticking to it. Which is fine by me personally as I left WoW because it got to the point where the challenge was in mastering the mods instead of the game. The only "mod" (if you will) that I felt the game lacked at launch was a customizable UI. That was handled rather nicely with the 1.2 patch back in April.

Exactly

As you can clearly see in this thread, most of the long term raiders left the game, casuals dont use to like DPS/HPS/Threat meters.

Yea lol, I agree. I found a parser to use. I come from an elitist guild in wow , we used to raid hardcore and was always in contention for world first clears. I understand where people come from, because Iv seen people called out for not doing dps when they was clearly doing well in other areas.

But I am going to be honest, the guild I was in, even though we might have been server first and hardcore. We never treated anyone badly, we understood that DPS meters is just a tool, and in the end, its a great way to have fun and do checks for gear. I'v seen people come in with great gear and pull 50% of the dps they was capable of and then on top of that, stand in crap and die, not cc, etc.. You have to take the dps meters at face value, they are a tool, nothing more. They can be misunderstood and used to blame people for a groups shortcomings, but I would never use like that. I just enjoy knowing my own dps, and work on rotations to maximize my class.

I have always been and will always be a Min/Maxer and very competitive, I enjoy playing every class the best possible way I can. Its why I play.

Hey guys can you name some of that 3rd party combat log analyzers everyone is talking about? Just want to "get a feel" of the mechanics, see how different gear/stats affect my char's abilities, both in DPS and tank fields. Oh, and also - does this log analyzers show "threat", companion and incoming DPS, I'm playing tank, so for me thats important...

And on DPS meters in-game - I also say they are NOT needed, it'll just be another "must have" program, for guilds, and tool for bullying more "relaxed" players. 'Tis a game, not the damn second job. Also most likely it will crunch more system resourses, the game becomes laggy enough after some time playing as-is.

SWMoniTOR is my personal favorite and MOX come 2nd.

 

Someone sensitive? So you got hit by the low dps disease and try to say everyone using a tool to find out you arent giving effort in what you do is an elitist?

 

We wouldnt need the tool in the first place if you were doing your job while having fun.

Ironically your response proves the point of the poster you quoted.

This one of the MANY reasons why I avoid the random public in MMO's. The stench of elitists takes forever to wash out of my clothes...

Using a parser in public events, or outside of a close group of friends or personal testing, is nothing but a reason to put yourself above the guy next to you. You have zero reason to do such a thing. You are not entitled to feel any more special than him. You are not special. Get that through your head.

My raid group uses a parser to get an idea of where each of our dps classes rank and how our newest spec build plays out. We found 2 of our dps were quite a bit lower than the other 2 dps. But not once did we ever kick them out, or yell at them, or belittle them. When we take in a guildie as a replacement for a night, or a random shout in /general, we never ask them to use the parser unless they ask about it. And guess what... we still clear every PvE fight in the game.

While the tool itself has its uses, and can be fun for good natured trash talking between friends, the MMO community at large has proven their inability to use this tool in a mature manner. This shouldn't come as any surprise, however, as the majority of MMO players have proven themselves to be socially inept to begin with.

dps meters are not needed...we do not want this to become a second wow

Dps meters was in mmo's long before wow!

Personally I would like to see it ingame. (even in wow before dps meter came, me and others ran damage dumps, same as parsa in swtor and used 3. party or uploaded file to some sites on the net to analyz it).

I might be wrong and it was in Anarchy online we did it in(my nr. 1 mmo of all time)

From a tank and healer prespective I really like to see it ingame, frankly been healer or tanking you have to pay attention and do some "work". WHILE there tend to be a lot dps that just slacking all time til boss fights comes up(I hate those freaking leachers!!!!) . I dont care if bottom dps is doing half of top dps as long as the person is doing his/her best.

My raid group seldom uses MOX while we're actively running an operation.

However, we strongly encourage players to use it themselves while at the ops dummy or while doing dailies to try out different rotations, or to try out different gear combinations. One player was geared at 50% crit and wasn't listening to arguments about that being a bad idea. We dragged him to the Gav Daragon, got him to fire up MOX and run ops dummy parses with +power gear replacing some of his +crit. This convinced him.

I think that meters are a valuable tool for an individual to improve themselves. But it's a personal thing. I'm happy to keep using third party tools, don't need to be built into the game.

While the tool itself has its uses, and can be fun for good natured trash talking between friends, the MMO community at large has proven their inability to use this tool in a mature manner. This shouldn't come as any surprise, however, as the majority of MMO players have proven themselves to be socially inept to begin with.

Exactly that. The problem with multiplayer game community - once they get some number related to their game performance (be it amount of frags, DPS, maximum tank or even "credits per hour" ratio) - it becomes someone epeen, and he would shove it to everyone's nose, and scream that everyone with less number of that - suck. While DPS is important, there is absolutely no need to monitor it constantly in PvE. Especially in large (8-16 ppl) raid. If one or two of your dps chars undreperforming by 10-15% is cause of full raid wipe - you do wrong (because your whole raid DPS is already on edge). If someone does half or quarter DPS he should be - its noticeable without any meters. And high DPS is absolutely no guarantee of winning in PvP, even 1v1. PvE is "cooperative game" after all, not "competitive", and person doing 15% less DPS maybe doing something else helpful to the team as a whole. And finishing a boss in 30 mins instead of 15 - is not a tragedy

P.S. Folks who think their DPS is coolest thing in a galaxy - why dont you go PvP (instead of screaming in PvE "I got 100500k DPS, u all suck"), I bet you can show the whole world how cool you are .