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bobudo

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  1. This is by design: the PvP developers are from Mythic and they don't like pure healing in PvP; so don't be expecting that to change anytime soon. They're design philosophy seems to be "A healer ought to be able to temporarily slow a team member's violent death." Thus they debuff all healing by 30% and are nerfing healers ability to heal and remain resource neutral. Wouldn't really expect that to change.
  2. What's interesting is that, as a healer, I don't get pissed when someone starts attacking someone I've just gotten back to full health; I expect as much to happen. The complaints you're hearing are from DPS kiddies that rolled over from World of Roguecraft. If they can't solo every class in the game then "things are broken" and "healers need a nerf". It's no wonder they love 1.2 - it shows the Devs are actively listening to them and catering to their needs. The Devs have said as much as well, frequently commenting on "what a success PvP has been" in TOR and saying that it's a top priority. It's also why they're going to break the game, because the PvP team doesn't like healers. That's not hyperbole: it's been quoted before (can't find the quote for the life of me) and it's evident from the PvP design choices that they don't want a healer being able to sit back and heal; they envision PvP healing as something you do spottily to prolong conflicts, not to win them. So take the PvP teams prejudices (they're DPSers at heart) and the PvP kiddies whines and what do you get? Healers that cannot match 1:1 the damage dealt by a DPS class. Watch. 1.3 will nerf tanks, because they'll be the only ones left who can stand up to DPS. Bioware has apparently decided to make this game into Star Wars: The DPS Empire; can't say I'll miss not seeing that.
  3. Yes, 1000x yes. Thank you for getting this so right; I've written literal chapters worth of posts trying to say just this.
  4. . . . I understand that not having a combat rez is frustrating*, but given how Combat Rez works in TOR, your point is invalid. Using the combat rez applies a 5-min debuff to the entire party; it cannot be removed for any reason (leaving combat, death, wipe, etc.). Anyone afflicted with that debuff cannot benefit from the use of the combat rez. Furthermore Combat Rez is extremely buggy - from my own experiences around 1/4 of the time the rez will report "Target Cannot Benefit From That Ability." which makes me laugh every time because they clearly could benefit were it working So yes there are situations where a Sorc/Sage/Op/Sc healer dies and the other healer, a Merc/Comm, cannot rez them, and that does suck. But no it is not a big enough of a deal to have caused any difference in the numbers. ------------- Now now, don't get me wrong, I think the Merc/Comm nerfs are foolish; in my opinion that they were neigh unkillable in PvP if played well should have been part of the design. I just don't think that having a combat log will do much. Pre-1.2 we've already been able to show with napkin math that things were bad; game-generated logs will either support that or not. If they don't, like GZ seems to insist, then nothing will change and we'll all eat crow. If the do, which is likely, then the issue is the benchmarks which GZ is setting for healing. The real problem here isn't numbers, it's design; either a lack of or just plain poor. Having the numbers to support that assertion doesn't change anything, as GZ has and will continue to design by numbers, not vice versa. It's why we've been asking for design statements on Healers for months now (and it's my understanding that this was sought in Beta as well) for this very reason: TOR healing isn't flawed despite design, it's flawed for lack of design. The Devs can only look and the numbers and make adjustments when it's solely the numbers that matter. It's why when GZ says Operative/Scoundrel DPS is only 5% off-of Marauder/Sentinel everyone keeps raging, because the Operative/Scoundrel class still is/feels less potent because of design (e.g. no ability to close in-combat, etc.) This problem is amplified regarding healing, specifically because there is very little design apparent in the healing classes - they're just a hodgepodge of restorative abilities tacked-on to what are otherwise DPS classes. That's what makes it weird when the only class that looked like it had been well-designed at all - Sorc/Sage - gets a (reportedly) strong nerf to those mechanics; I submit this as proof positive that there is no coherent design targets for Healers. Furthermore, merely adjusting healing classes by numbers is a poor approach; healing isn't purely about the numbers like DPS is, it's about keeping people alive. Period. If I invented the Weaksauce healing class that could only do 1/10th of the healing of any other class, but could keep the party alive, then it would be a successful healing class. If I invented the OMGSTRONGS healing class that could do 10x the healing of any other class, but it couldn't keep people alive, then it would be an unsuccessful healing class. It's why 1.2 is a DPS player's approach to healing balance - just adjusting the numbers around is something you to fix DPS balance, but it means squat to healers; Bioware is going to start learning that first hand when 1.2 hits and Merc/Comm healers cannot keep people alive despite hitting the "benchmark". And that's why, in the end, the numbers (and ergo the combat logs) don't matter: until healing in this game actually gets designed, the numbers are silly because the game will still be flawed. *(I played a Druid in vanilla WoW, so I didn't have an OOC rez - so I really do understand).
  5. Re-roll DPS? I mean, being good at a class isn't the same casual vs. hardcore timesink debate that end-game content is; you either get a feel for your class' playstyle or not. To that extent, the bell curve for class performance isnt going to look like a bell - you might expect the majority of players in a class to perform to the 80-85 percent range. And yes, it is preferable, because it means everyone has fun. If one guy playing his class can best you every time, its not like your helpless. Get a friend, avoid the beast, or learn to play in a group. MMOs are, stripped of their fun, iterative learning engines. You attempt, fail, modify behavior, succeed. This chain of events is necessary, otherwise the game is boring. So tl;dr, am I saying that there's no way that Sorc/Sage didn't need an adjustment? No - if players in the 80-85 percent range were able to negate resource scarcity then something needed to be adjusted. But there are always going to be outliers on the performance curve, and you cannot balance around outliers.
  6. Exactly: the problem with designing a game on a spreadsheet is that it starts to look more like "Excel: the Game" instead of something people actually want to play. The 1.2 patch demonstrates a lack of imagination, clear and simple. Rather than attempt to actually introduce balance, it instead seeks to normalize output. There's a subtle difference between those two terms, one the Devs arent demonstrating a grasp of: balance is an art form, it cannot be done solely on the numbers, but also the feel of a class. Normalizing instead destroys a class. You want to know how I judge a well made class? On the backs of those who are absolutely unstoppable in the hands of a skilled player. Where the PvP kids cry "nerf" everytime they lose to a player who is neigh godlike in their class, I think that is the benchmark. So when GZ says that Sorc/Sage resource management needed to be nerfed because very good players never ran out of force, I see him back tracking from a well designed class.
  7. unlikely - Georg Zoeller has already had the logs (and far more data), and that's what he's based 1.2 on. I disagree with GZ from a design philosophy, but you cant fault the man when it come to numbers ; that is very clearly his "thing".
  8. I agree with the distinction between potency and fun, however: Isn't this really just the flip side of same potency coin (I also agree that this type of "design" [using that word loosely] is boring)? If you only have a limited toolset, then what is your potency? I understand that from a "design" perspective, the intent is to make the Sage/Sorcerer healer have to chose between using all that utility or keeping force points high; thus opening the door for tech healers to capitalize on their energy efficiency.* But the tech healers have less to bring to the table, specifically due to the handful of abilities. It's why I was really hoping for some more in-depth mechanical changes to the tech healers; specifically the introduction of ability synergy/combination. How much more interesting would a 3-ability healer be if each of those abilities combined in different ways? For example: RuQu has 3 main abilities A, B, and C. A is a long, big direct heal, B is a HoT that confers a small damage mitigation buff, and C is an AoE similar to the pre-1.2 Operative/Scoundrel ability. RuQu also has secondary ability D, a free, small heal that is similar to Hammer Shots/Diagnostic Scan etc. to help with Energy/Heat/Ammo regen. All abilities are instant. Each main ability leaves a short (2.5s - or not more than 1.5 GCD) buff on the target that allows for a subsequent heal on the same target to act as a modifier; this also serves as a balance mechanism, forcing the player to chain cast the large abilities to activate the combos. So, when RuQu casts: A+B - the damage mitigation buff conferred by B is consumed and amplified into a shield that blocks all incoming damage for 4s. B+A - the healing done by the HoT conferred by B is doubled for it's duration. A+C - the target cap on the AoE is doubled to 8. C+A - the HoT conferred by C is consumed; all targets affected by C are healed for the sum of the HoT. C+B+A - the damage mitigation buff is consumed, and is amplified into an AoE Shield (similar to Sniper Shield) that mitigates X% of incoming damage for Y seconds. (The balance behind this is that casting all 3 abilities in a row would drop the healer to a low tier of energy regen). *See Spoiler for Aside:
  9. Hey, we're a class act here; you've just got to stop hanging out in the PvP forums! Oh, and let us balance the game instead if the PvPers, that's the other thing you u have to do.
  10. The only difference here is small group size for "raid" content. In current content, the 2 healers that run with an 8-man are likely to always have healing targets; there's enough AoE and secondary damage going around as to make resting unfeasible. Honestly, I think the small group sizes are causing most of the issues. In a 40-man raid, the shear volume of players covered the flaws; but as group size shrinks, each player needs to be able to give 100%. And that means each class has to be designed flawlessly. It makes Georg's "within 5% effectiveness" target far too large, as any noticeable difference is going to be non-negligible.
  11. Shush you. When Operative/Scoundrels were at the bottom, everyone who wasn't a troll was on our side. If you don't want to be constructive, that's fine, go back to the PvP forums.
  12. First things first, whatever Community Rep reads through our threads, tell Georg thank you for hearing the message about the tone of his posts; is answer this week "sounded" much more "I'm talking with you" than "I'm talking down at you", and it makes a huge difference. On to the meat!! I'm of two minds here. I'm in full agreement with the core message: "Sometimes "nerfs" are necessary" (and no, that reason is never because of PvP whiners). However that statement feels off in this context; I feel as if your benchmarks in this respect must be artificially low in order for Merc/Comm healing to be considered "above target". RuQu already touched on how helpful transparency would be for you in this situation (if not all situations), so I'll aim in a different direction. I agree with your general message regarding combat inflation, but by your own statements, you're balancing healing in TOR to the lowest common denominator, and I'm frankly baffled as to why. Take Tech-Healers as an example: It's very clear that you want both Merc/Comm and Op/Sc healers using their "basic" healing ability (Hammershots/Diagnostic Scan etc.) more regularly. Why? This makes very little sense from a design standpoint as these abilities can only be used when healing isn't currently needed. The only sense I can make of it is that it's a DPS player's approach to healing, insofar as DPS will typically use their free "auto-attack" ability as filler to let resource regen run. But it's poor healing design. Where a DPS can rest on his laurels for 2-3 GCDs, in all but the very best groups (both gear and skill) a healer is unlikely to have that luxury. Dammit, you'd been doing so good at not being condescending. SO CLOSE. So lets iron this out right here: Every sentence I've written on these forums (save the 20 or so where I've been actively trolling) has been for the good of the game. Every single recommendation. Every discussion. Every disagreement. I want nothing more than to see this game succeed. And while you've got a lot of "catch-up" work cut out for you, I think 1.2 shows that you're almost up to the task. But honestly, and I say this for the good of the game, you have got to do something different with healing. I don't know who dreamed up the current system, but it is flawed, deeply so, in it's simplicity and low potency; the person currently running the show on healing needs to take a backseat (if that's you, sorry, but you're evidently not a healer). The person driving the healing system in the game needs to be a healer; someone who understand our motivations and needs. See, the enjoyment factor for a healer is very binary: Fun when we can keep people alive, not fun when we cannot. That's why fun healing classes in other MMOs (and the Sorcerer/Sage to a lesser extent) have a diverse set of tools and mechanics to work with; the skill of the player is in knowing what to use and when. But your system - especially with the 1.2 changes - doesn't do this. Your system doesn't ask healers to make any choices; your design for healing has us watching bars and deciding whether or not to dump our resources or keep hitting the same 3 - 4 buttons in a row over and over. Op/Sc healers were already strictly in the 3 button healing boat before hand, but by increasing the resource penalty on the other classes, you've now made healing an exceptionally boring task. No amount of encounter mechanics is going to change that. TL;DR It's good that you're demonstrating that you are hearing the outcry, but it's time to step up to the plate and do something more imaginative with healing. Also: QFT. We stand united. This makes my day.
  13. Remember all the hope we had we RuQu started this thread? Our enthusiasm? Our spirit? I miss those days.
  14. To that extent, I wonder if you noticed that I initially made this post over a month ago to warn of the need for serious changes to the Operative/Scoundrel class. Specifically, I was calling for the devs to take notice of something they'd yet to acknowledge - the significant imbalance in healing classes, specifically the Operative/Scoundrel - as real life trends (cobbled together from admittedly anecdotal accounts) of excluding non-Sorcerer/Sage healers were already beginning to mount. What you chalk up as "Chicken Little-ing" on my part, as it relates to the game pre-1.2, is therefore incorrect: The sky was falling on the Operative/Scoundrel healers; the sun was setting may be a more apt metaphor. I get that, in the ~ month since my OP, the Devs have acknowledged this issue and taken (what they believe to be) steps towards correcting this issue; to that extent, the literal meaning of my earliest comments and the title of this thread are now inapplicable. But the message of my OP is still applicable, perhaps now more broadly. Given the opportunity, I might re-title this thread "Devs, you're missing your window to save healing". (See RuQu's post on "balance through simplification" for why I feel Bioware is taking the wrong approach.) The problem pre-1.2 is that healing was in poor shape. The only class that was well designed was Sorcerer/Sage, and even then, it is significantly less complex than most other MMO healers. Commando/Mercenary and Operative/Scoundrel healing was completely barebones. What Bioware needed to do was introduce a complete overhaul; instead they've nerfed. It's a patch-fix (perhaps appropriate for a patch), but if healing mechanics were boats, the hole in TOR's healing is Iceberg-magnitude; you can't just patch over it and expect it to stay afloat. See, Bioware drew in several different crowds with TOR: among those crowds are people with varying levels of MMO experience. From my time spend in these threads, I can tell you that most of the people upset about this issue are experienced healers; people who have played healers in other MMOs (I include myself in this group). The reason we're upset/leaving is because TOR healing is a step backwards from almost any other MMO. It's boring. It's not fun. It's not rewarding. We were already suffering through a sub-par system before the 1.2 nerfs were announced; can you really blame us for not wanting to stick around any longer?
  15. But you know what you aren't? A person who has any concept of your own failings. You, not a healer, feel as if your opinions on the issue you have no experience with - healing - are some how superior to those of us who have played the classes and subsequently dedicated ourselves to bringing this issue to the attention of those who can fix things. Allow me to correct your failings: you know nothing. We are no chicken littles, butthurt over our inability to play the game. We are skilled and capable players who have suffered through Bioware's lack of design regarding healing. We are those who see the writing on the wall: we understand the importance of healing in MMOs, and thus the dire ramifications of Bioware's inability to balance these classes without nerfing them into trite simplicity. We're not trying to attack "your" game because it's fun; we're trying to save this game from its own shortsighted designs. By making healing more difficult and less fun, healers will leave. You think it's difficult to find good healers now? Wait til 1.2. See, those of us who are good? We want to be challenged not by impotence, but by complexity. Bioware's approach to challenge is the opposite. So healers will leave. The good ones. The ones you want to run with. But hey, I hope you have fun playing all the endgame content when you can't find a healer to save your life, since you'd run us all out with pitchforks for wanting something more than 3-button healing.
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