Not hard to believe considering how horrible this game is. TERA already has a far superior PVP and combat system. But I guess some people consider looking for boxes all day and spamming their 1 key as "real PVP". How's Ilum and Huttball bro?

Someone obviously doesn't know anything about GW2. Anyway, I haven't touched this game in ages. Playing ME2 now (and ME3 multiplayer), a true high quality BioWare game. Though, I'll give it to BioWare... SW:TOR's story was pretty high up there in terms of quality. But GW2 is going to be more successful than SW:TOR and TERA. It's a given. It's also clearly the better game.

You mean you know friends and family of ArenaNet developers personally? Because those are the only people who've played the GW2 beta so far. The closed beta for the media is only starting this weekend. Either you're lying or the people who told you they played the beta are lying. Unless you're talking about the Gamescom, PAX, and GSTAR demos. In which case, I'd be interested to hear what your friends think of SW:TOR PVP if they weren't satisfied with GW2's PVP, since I played the demos and was very impressed (coming from a hardcore DAoC and multiple season [s2-S8] Gladiator PVPer). Actually, I'd be interested to hear anyone who thinks SW:TOR's PVP will be better than GW2's, mainly so I can laugh at them.

Implying any class in this game takes skill to play.

Pre-season to boring, skilless PVP? Nah. I had far more fun in an hour of Lv22 open world deathmatch PVP in TERA than I ever did in tens of hours of endgame PVP in SW:TOR. Anyone who says SW:TOR PVP takes skill is delusional. Funny thing is that I didn't even look at TERA with SW:TOR and GW2 on the horizon (not a big fan of Asian MMO's -- GW isn't an Asian MMO, before you try to argue that it is). SW:TOR was supposed to be the go-to game for me until GW2 came out, but it turns out TERA was a far better game. So, really, what can you tell me? That you're a Star Wars/BioWare fanboy who thinks they can do no wrong? Because if you try to say SW:TOR PVP is superior to either TERA or GW2 PVP (which I played at PAX), then you're severely mistaken.

TERA beta tonight. Played on Wednesday night for their pre-beta test. Should be good to hold me until GW2. Finally a game that actually takes more skill than this trash. Laters, SW:ToR.

Except no one seems to think you are outside of your little guildies. P.S. I'm #1

You're asking me to provide an abstract measure of success because you can't argue against the monetary success of Guild Wars in sales, and its success as an E-Sport. Yeah, come back when you have a better argument.

So you want to argue semantics. Ok. Here's irony. You argue against subjective statements, yet make your own after I provide proof of GW's success (economically). You asked for proof of GW's success and I provided it. GW sold itself on PVP, had the backing of major E-Sport leagues. It was monetarily successful when compared to the reigning MMORPG's of the time (FFXI and World of Warcraft). It also had staying power, selling over 7 million copies with all of its original servers intact over the course of 6 years (no server merges), which indicates a steady population across all servers. So I'm not exactly sure what you're asking here. Are you now asking me of subjective proof of GW's success as a PVP game? Such as fun factor, balance, style of PVP? Not to mention the glaring probably in your quote from me, which when arguing semantics, denotes that I was not speaking in absolutes when I said "top 3 games". However, consider games that were widely lauded for its PVP (GW, DAoC) when compared to a game whose PVP is widely mocked, even by its own playerbase (SW:ToR).

You asked for proof that GW was a successful PVP game. E-Sport leagues are businesses that do not cover unsuccessful games that won't make them money. ESL and WSG have covered numerous GW tournaments, not to mention the in-house tournaments ArenaNet has. The only other MMO to have such E-Sport coverage was WoW Arenas. That's not to mention the millions of copies GW has sold over the years, which places it with the likes of WoW, BF2, MW2, etc. Your argument will probably involve something about DAoC not being E-Sport eligible yet still being one of the best MMO PVP games (along with EVE and WoW), but that has more to do with the fact that DAoC revolved around mass PVP rather than arena PVP. So, yes, do refute the fact that GW's PVP was very successful.

No, you're using opinion and shooting at straws to fill your argument. My position is simple logic, economics, and business structure. E-Sport eligibility is a far stronger argument than your "just because it's popular doesn't make it good" argument.

I find this ironic, considering the only thing Star Wars did new with the Sci-Fi genre was shiny glowsticks.

You asked for proof of GW's success to argue against a subjective claim. Well, now you're trying to refute that by trying to argue based on subjective opinion. What do you want? Economically, GW is a success. You can't argue that. PVP-wise, GW is a success. You can't argue that either. As for what is fun? Well, that is subjective. But you asked for successful, and I gave it to you. The really ironic part is that GW was both a very successful E-Sport AND a niche game, which fills both of your supposed requirements as to what makes a great game.

From what I hear, the endgame PVE portion of the game isn't much better than the PVP endgame.

About the best post in this entire thread. Good on you, sir.