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Dual Targeting, are we missing something?

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Dual Targeting, are we missing something?

Larode's Avatar


Larode
02.03.2012 , 08:38 AM | #21
Just throwing out my support for the idea, this sounds like a very good feature to have ingame!
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Zamm's Avatar


Zamm
02.07.2012 , 03:27 AM | #22
Definitely against this idea..
It would create way too many complications.
And I don't support the changing of so many things just for a targetting mechanic.

Currently, if I have an enemy targetted and I cast a heal, it heals me.
Your suggestion kills that with a DT.
What do you suggest next?
Targetting yourself as the DT? Similar to needing to hit a modifier.
Setting yourself as FT? Modifier.

Right now I can have a target and a focus target.
The focus target modifier can be ANY KEY that I want.
It need only to be held down, and whatever I'm hitting is casted on the FT.
So if I have an enemy targetted, and I cast a heal with no FT modifier.
It heals me.
If I hold the FT Modifier, heals my FT.

No need for dual targetting.
Every environment requires something to be casted on yourself, this creates a problem with any friendly abilities that you need to cast on yourself with a DT.
I'm willing to guarantee the second this entered the game, there would be A LOT of complaints that they continually cast things on other people instead of themselves.
Not to mention setting up an FT is as easy as setting a DT depending on your keybind.

Let's use basic keybinds just as an example.
Swap/Set Focus Target (It swaps OR sets your focus target.....)
Focus Target Modifier (Holding this applies whatever you cast to your focus target.)

Swap/Set - 1
Focus Target Modifer - 2

You target Bob, Bob is a friendly.
You press 1.
Bob is now your Focus Target, and no longer your target.

You target Billy, Billy is an enemy.
You attack Billy.
Bob is almost dead.
You hold 2 and press whichever key your heal is on.
As long as you hit the heal key WITH the focus modifier key held down, Billy will be healed by it even if you let go while it's casting.

HERE IS THE VERY IMPORTANT PART WHICH MANY DON'T SEEM TO KNOW ABOUT:
You currently have Billy targetted.
You press 1.
Billy is now your Focus Target.
Bob is now your target.
You press 1 again.
Bob is your focus target again.
Billy is now your target again.

If you have a target AND a Focus Target, it litterally swaps them.
In which case, you don't even need a focus modifier if you don't want one.
Whenever you press your swap, your target becomes your focus and your focus becomes your target.
There once was a stranger, with eyes full of danger, he spoke not a word, but his meaning was heard...

Fujah's Avatar


Fujah
02.07.2012 , 04:47 PM | #23
I'm not going to lie and say I read any of this but it sounds like it's be mainly for healers and healers only? Or at least help them the greatest? Not sure I'd want that.

StealthStalker's Avatar


StealthStalker
02.07.2012 , 05:00 PM | #24
Quote: Originally Posted by Zamm View Post
Definitely against this idea..
It would create way too many complications.
And I don't support the changing of so many things just for a targetting mechanic.

Currently, if I have an enemy targetted and I cast a heal, it heals me.
Your suggestion kills that with a DT.
What do you suggest next?
Targetting yourself as the DT? Similar to needing to hit a modifier.
Setting yourself as FT? Modifier.
This only happens provided you have someone else as a current friendly target, yes. If you do not have any friendly targeted, it works the same. If I do have some other friendly targeted it's still no different than the current system in which you have to then target yourself (or use a self cast modifier) so....?

Are you sure you know exactly how this works?

Unfortunately many of things (like this) that you've brought up I've addressed in previous threads that continue to get removed (beta boards, old official boards).

Allowing this to be an option eliminates any concern you have. I can choose to target how I wish, you keep your choice.

Quote:
Right now I can have a target and a focus target.
The focus target modifier can be ANY KEY that I want.
It need only to be held down, and whatever I'm hitting is casted on the FT.
So if I have an enemy targetted, and I cast a heal with no FT modifier.
It heals me.
If I hold the FT Modifier, heals my FT.
I target a friendly, I now have a friendly targeted.
I target an enemy, I now have an enemy target AND a friendly target.

I cast an offensive spell, it goes to the enemy target.
I cast a friendly spell, it goes to my friendly target.
If I do not have a friendly target, that spell defaults to me like it does currently.

I tab target or select a new enemy. I now have a new enemy target, but the same friendly target.
I target a new friendly target, I now have a new friendly target but the enemy target remains the same.

I have no needed a modifier to set, change, or cast. No modifiers used at any time. The only time I would need to use a modifier (or hotkey) to change targets is if I wanted to target myself for heals, in which case I have a couple of other options too:

Sticky enemy target, non stick friendly target. Clicking somewhere in the world that isn't a player or object clears my friendly target, but keeps my enemy target unless I press escape to clear it.

Simply press F1 (or whatever you bind your selftarget key to), or click my character window (or character in game if that setting is available), or various other methods.

Quote:
Every environment requires something to be casted on yourself, this creates a problem with any friendly abilities that you need to cast on yourself with a DT.
I'm willing to guarantee the second this entered the game, there would be A LOT of complaints that they continually cast things on other people instead of themselves.
How is this any different than the current system? If I currently have a friendly player targeted, I can not cast anything on myself unless I use a self-cast modifier (is that even in game?). This argument doesn't make any sense.

Right now, this very instant, if I target another friendly target I can not cast on myself. You do realize this right?

Quote:
Not to mention setting up an FT is as easy as setting a DT depending on your keybind.
What? DT doesn't require setting anything up at all. I covered that above already.

I target an enemy, it's my enemy target.
I target a friendly, it's my friendly target.

I'm now done, and can change this with any new target selection. I require no further action beyond targeting them.

Quote:
Let's use basic keybinds just as an example.
Swap/Set Focus Target (It swaps OR sets your focus target.....)
Focus Target Modifier (Holding this applies whatever you cast to your focus target.)

Swap/Set - 1
Focus Target Modifer - 2

You target Bob, Bob is a friendly.
You press 1.
Bob is now your Focus Target, and no longer your target.

You target Billy, Billy is an enemy.
You attack Billy.
Bob is almost dead.
You hold 2 and press whichever key your heal is on.
As long as you hit the heal key WITH the focus modifier key held down, Billy will be healed by it even if you let go while it's casting.

HERE IS THE VERY IMPORTANT PART WHICH MANY DON'T SEEM TO KNOW ABOUT:
You currently have Billy targetted.
You press 1.
Billy is now your Focus Target.
Bob is now your target.
You press 1 again.
Bob is your focus target again.
Billy is now your target again.

If you have a target AND a Focus Target, it litterally swaps them.
In which case, you don't even need a focus modifier if you don't want one.
Whenever you press your swap, your target becomes your focus and your focus becomes your target.
Great, let's look at it from my perspective with true Dual Targeting.

I target Billy and start nukin' him to death. Good times.
I target Bob and start healing him. Good times.

I can now do this with any ability, and no targetswap/focus target bind or modifiers are needed. Indefinitely.

Here comes along Charlie, he's a new enemy target. I'm going to let Bob handle Billy, so I now tab target (or click on) Charlie.

I now have Charlie targeted and start nuking him.
I heal Bob, he's getting low.

I can now continue to heal bob, or nuke Charlie, and I still do not require any FT/DT macros or modifiers. I press my hotkey for heals, and they heal Bob. I press my nukes, cc, they hit Charlie.

If Charlie shows up in your example, you must ensure Bob is your Focus Target, and then target Charlie and begin swapping between them.

If then Dave shows up, a new friendly target...? You now must choose who you want as your Focus Target, Bob or Charlie.

I would simply target Dave, keeping Charlie my Enemy target (or Bob, if I've swapped back).

If there are 2 enemy and 2 friendly targets in the battle, I can freely choose between them without any modifiers or keybinds needed. Additionally the enemy or friendly choices are independent of one another. You must decide which one you want as a FT, and continue swapping then between the other 3.

All the while you have to continue using a modifier to cast on the FT at any given time (or use the keybind to swap, heh). Am I wrong?


The only argument I will concede to you is this:

I can only have an enemy target and friendly target at any given time. I can not have two friendly or two enemy targets. This was mentioned in the OP.
Dual Targeting, any AAA MMO released today should have this included. Don't let your next one release without it.
Quote:
So what exactly is Dual Targeting? You have 2 targets available at all times, one offensive and one defensive. That's it, it's that simple.

StealthStalker's Avatar


StealthStalker
02.07.2012 , 05:03 PM | #25
Quote: Originally Posted by Fujah View Post
I'm not going to lie and say I read any of this but it sounds like it's be mainly for healers and healers only? Or at least help them the greatest? Not sure I'd want that.
Check the bottom half of the OP for a little example of DPS or Tank usage of the system. Frankly, I love it when playing those two roles.

Keeping track of a friendly target just by selecting their name from the party frame is invaluable. Easily targeting and knowing where my healer or guard is as a DPS is very handy, and being able to change that without the need of a keybind (Focus Target selection) is even more so.
Dual Targeting, any AAA MMO released today should have this included. Don't let your next one release without it.
Quote:
So what exactly is Dual Targeting? You have 2 targets available at all times, one offensive and one defensive. That's it, it's that simple.

Zamm's Avatar


Zamm
02.07.2012 , 07:05 PM | #26
I definitely respect how you addressed what I wrote, some of it seemed to be lashing out at me but some of my post is easily perceived in a hostile manner.
That is not the case, and you responded in a polite but formidable manner.

ONTOP of adding in Charlie and Dave!

I still, however, disagree with this system.
But I also respect having a choice, and I would definitely agree that the choice between the two is definitely better than no choice at all.

But continuing on with the banter!

The sticky target is definitely helpful towards the problem of not being able to cast on yourself if you have an ally target.

When I provided that argument, I was speaking directly in the sense of having an enemy targetted.
There is no need to clear your target to cast on yourself.
With an ally targetted there is a need.
So having an ally targetted in the game right now, would be the exact same scenario as having a DT.
You would need to clear your target or use a modifier to cast on yourself.

My biggest problem with Dual Targetting isn't in Dual Targetting.
It's in how targetting in games already works..
It's clumsy, I have no idea how an efficient targetting system could work..
But the general idea of it is not efficient.
Tab targetting has always sucked, everyone that uses it has just gotten used to how it sucks..

Regardless of how you change the use of your targetting button, it just can't have ALL of the targetting functions.
Target Next Enemy
Target Center Screen
Target Previous Enemy
Target Closest Enemy
Target Farthest Enemy
Target Next Friendly
Target Previous Friendly
Target Closest Friendly
Target Farthest Friendly

I'm pretty sure everyone gets to hit the button to their hearts desire until they finally arrive at their intended target...
You can click on your team window, you can click on the open world...
But in a lot of instances it's nearly impossible to tell if clicking them will allow you to target them quicker than BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON, BU-DANGIT I PASSED HIM, PREVIOUS BUTTON, DANGIT HE ISN'T CONSIDERED THE PREVIOUS ANYMORE, BUTTON, BUTTON, BUTTON..

It's not always like the above, but how many times do you have to press a button to target someone?
Or how many buttons could you have pressed in the time you took to click them...

That is in the targetting function in general, and has nothing to do with your dual targetting other than there may be times that it can possibly become more bothersome with your dual targetting, but that remains to be seen by me.

I don't like the focus system, I was merely explaining that it can be used in a similar way here (Looking back in memory I don't think any other game has actually had a swap system on it.)

So technically speaking you can already have any form of two targets that consists of enemies and allies.
But of course there is the matter of the modifier, unless you simply continually swap and heal your target.

I would be very open to Dual Targetting if the current standard for targetting wasn't already so clunky...
But like I said, I see no possible way it can be changed to be more efficient...

I respect your love for that kind of a system, I do not share that love.
I would be more than happy to agree that it should be brought into the game as a choice, but not as a change.
I believe that is what you're after though, a choice of using it.
There once was a stranger, with eyes full of danger, he spoke not a word, but his meaning was heard...

StealthStalker's Avatar


StealthStalker
02.07.2012 , 07:40 PM | #27
I agree entirely with your issues regarding the current tab-targeting. It's definitely subpar.

Not only tab targeting, but the issues with clicking on people in the world really need to be fixed as well. Thing is, there's two different factors at play for it. If they're addressed it'll go a long way to fixing the overall feel of targeting.

1) When trying to target a player in the world, you have to click directly on their character. It can't be near it, roughly in the place of it, or even on the nameplate (gah!). It has to be directly on them.

2) When targeting a player, the actual act of targeting takes place on release of the mouse button, and not when it's pressed.

Those two issues with clicking in the world, and the horrible way tab targeting works currently... well, you know what it's like.

Also in regards to focus targeting/swap. There's also the ability to "Target your Target's Target", or swap your target with whatever your target is targeting. Assisting your target, if you will.

I personally don't find it useful, but that functionality is there too.

I'll also go ahead and apologize for the edge of hostility, it just naturally occurs within these threads due to past experiences. I'm trying to be more restrained, but I still have a little ways to go.

Thanks for contributing to the discussion.
Dual Targeting, any AAA MMO released today should have this included. Don't let your next one release without it.
Quote:
So what exactly is Dual Targeting? You have 2 targets available at all times, one offensive and one defensive. That's it, it's that simple.

silktor's Avatar


silktor
02.08.2012 , 03:29 AM | #28
'tis a nice idea but don't think it'd work in TOR.

Off top of my head I know of one ability that just couldn't work with dual targetting:

Combat support cylinder.

I mean what would it do, shoot the bad guy or heal the good guy?

If you ask an AI this question, it may explode!

Ashphael's Avatar


Ashphael
02.08.2012 , 03:43 AM | #29
Quote: Originally Posted by StealthStalker View Post
Also in that thread I gave a link to a couple of videos showing Dual Targeting in action, here are those links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm-fF...tailpage#t=46s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok0ajYQh374&hd=1
Feel free to mute the music, it may not be to everyone's liking
I can't mute the music (that you knew not everyone liked) because there's countries where any video with music is likely to be blocked. Google did not negotiate a deal with rights-holders everywhere.

Ah, screw that. Only the US counts, just look at patch-times.

WarTornPanda's Avatar


WarTornPanda
02.08.2012 , 03:51 AM | #30
Quote: Originally Posted by StealthStalker View Post
Update
11/18/2011

Well, now that it can be discussed a little more freely. I still stand adamantly by this feature, but it'll probably never exist due to the design of two abilities, and probably more.

Trooper: Combat Support Cell, and how it affects Hammer Shot, and the equivalent for Bounty Hunter.

*How does this work?

If you target a friendly and use Hammer Shot, you heal them.
If you target an enemy and use Hammer Shot, you damage them.

It's basically "Holy Shock" or "Penance" in the FAQ. With that one ability, we really couldn't have true dual targeting because it's a base class ability. I'm a bit disappointed to say the least, but at least it's not an insurmountable fix. The question is, would the fix ever even be considered?

I'd much rather have two base free ability (like the other 4 healers), than waste the potential of Dual Targeting. What do I mean by that? Here's how the Operative compares:

Free Attack: Rifle Shot
Free Heal: Diagnostic Scan

Yeah, two different abilities, but in both examples they do the same thing: Free "attack" and free "heal".

I'll be responding some time in the near future regarding my experience playing various classes, and why dual targeting would have made them all a more enjoyable experience.

*Note: This is how this ability worked (when named Kolto Cell), I have not seen it actually in action with its rename and slight change.
I don't see how this is any different from a "leech" which you said was okay before this...

Quote: Originally Posted by StealthStalker View Post
Q. And what about (wow examples) things like Penance or Holy Shock, where the spell does different things depending on if the target is friendly or hostile?

A. You're correct, those abilities would not work in a Dual Target environment. At the same time, new abilities do open up so it's a bit of give and take. Leeching abilities, such as life drains that channel HP from your enemy target to your friendly, and similar effects become available.
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Imperial Agent