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Fixing Grade 11 (6.0) crafting

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > General Discussion
Fixing Grade 11 (6.0) crafting

Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
11.09.2019 , 06:46 AM | #1
Following Keith's check-in, I would like to consolidate suggestions for crafting improvements to a single thread.

We've had many threads and posts about the issues with Grade 11 crafting. This thread is not intended to argue if crafting has problems, or even necessarily what those problems are (I think they're fairly well identified at this point), but what to do about the problems.

Anyone who wants to contribute, please make specific suggestions or tweak someone else's suggestions. No insulting Bioware or even defending them, please; this is not about them but about the topic of crafting. Keeping our contributions steamlined and on-topic will help BW far better than any meta discussion.

Now, on to the suggestions!
  • Revert basic components to needing 2/2/2 of each material. No more 8/10/10. A slight lowering to something like 6/8/8 is not enough. Please go straight to 2/2/2. This is the most important thing for you to do.
  • Adjust the supply of green materials via missions. Because Grade 11 crafting needs greens predominantly, but greens are not adequately supplied in proportion to how much they are needed, add extra moderate missions to all mission and gathering skills, but especially to archaeology, scavenging, and bioanalysis (add twice as many new moderate missions to them as to slicing and the mission skills, because they additionally do not have enough missions per type of material, e.g. currently only one moderate power crystal mission, one moderate artifact fragment mission, etc.). Additionally make the other grades return some/more green materials along with their current yields. Alternatively, make moderate missions return twice as many materials (but still give archaeology, scavenging, and bioanalysis extra missions, please - or make their moderate missions return quadruple results instead). But I think this is sub-optimal because a lot of people haven't even noticed that moderate missions are the only ones that return solely greens, and many may continue to not notice.
  • Also because of the need for more grade 11 green materials, realign the proportion of green to blue to purple materials provided by harvesting nodes to approx. 7:2:1. At the moment, even one purple basic component take 204 greens, 72 blues, and 30 purples. (This doesn't take crits along the path to purple components into account, since people's crit rates are different. I acknowledge that in practice the requirements will be less than this, but I find it a helpful starting point for working out how much we need of each quality.) The proportion of green to blue to purple here is approximately either 6:3:1 or 7:2:1 (more precisely, 67:23:10), so that's what the average proportions offered by nodes should be. If BW have some more precise proportion to offer that takes average crit rates into account, that could be used instead. Additionally, for archaeology nodes specifically, please provide the same amount of power crystals as artifact fragments; don't split crystals between colour and power, as there seems to be an under-supply of power crystals that I imagine is coming from nodes (since we never see the amount gathered by a companion in any info window, it's hard to track).
  • Reverse-engineering/deconstructing *either* needs to have a lowest chance of 20% *or* an in-built pity timer that guarantees success after a certain number of attempts. My personal preference is 20% at the lowest, no matter what the grade, but I'm open to argument. The cost to RE higher levels will still be higher because higher levels cost more materials for every attempt. It's not necessary to reduce the chance to 10% or 5% on top of that.
  • Green items should need materials no higher than green. Blue items should need materials no higher than blue (this can include blue exotics like isotopes). Purple items should need materials no higher than purple (this can include purple exotics like matrices). Only gold items should use gold materials.
  • This is a comment partially on grade 11 but also partially on grades 1-10. Restore pre-6.0 mission success chance rates. Before 6.0, I do not remember ever failing a grey-difficulty mission. (If it did happen, it must've been so rare that it didn't register.) Certainly I did not, for example, fail a grade 6 mission when my skill level let me run grade 10 missions - yet, now, I do fail grade 6 missions, often enough that it stands out. This appears to be taking away with one hand while offering to give back with the other hand if we pay a price - i.e. trying to incentivize us to pursue +success rate amplifiers. But, at least for me, all it does is fuel resentment, because I never used to fail on the vast majority of missions before. It was unhelpful to make our success rate worse and hold hostage the prospect of getting it back to what it once was, under certain conditions. Even if one can re-achieve pre-6.0 success rate via amplifiers, having to swap equipment back and forth just to run missions actively makes the crafting experience worse, when 6.0 should be trying to make it better.

Additionally, this is a purely subjective suggestion made solely on behalf of people like me who craft for pretty things rather than stats, so it's a comment on part of crafting rather than crafting as a whole, but...
  • Please add purely cosmetic items at grade 11 (two dyes and one new colour of crystal for artifice is all you gave us; new synthweaving and armormech outfits have stats, when you could also give us empty shell outfits, armstech could get empty weapon shells, artifice empty sabers, more dyes and crystals, mounts for cybertech, etc).

I have cross-posted this thread to Reddit as well, with a view to hopefully gaining more useful feedback. Feel free to comment there if you prefer.
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phalczen's Avatar


phalczen
11.09.2019 , 05:01 PM | #2
I agree with all these suggestions Estelindis. I would add that there needs to be a second mission for the so-called Supplement materials ... the ones that used to only be white but now come in green and blue varieties and are sold by the crew skill vendor and advanced repair droid legacy perk. However, I have low expectations that such a change could be implemented in short order.

Why do I think these changes are immediately necessary to resuscitate crafting?

The changes as proposed by Estelindis will still result in a system that consumes far more materials than previously, simply by the nature of the nested components and purple/blue grades of things that were previously only green. This achieves the inferred goal of the developers that crafting should be time consuming, expensive, and encumbered. (I mean, that's the only conclusion I've come to regarding the developer's motives for putting this out despite the PTS feedback.) Additionally, since deconstructing items results in the return of materials completely unrelated to the crafting skill (e.g. deconstructing purple biochem end products gives luxury fabrics and sliced tech parts) a crafter will still be in significant green material deficit for the foreseeable future, as crew skill gathering gets very expensive and gathering nodes on Onderon and Mek Sha are either sparse or buried under geometry.

So, the developers still get to burden crafters, but the system isn't the travesty that it is now.
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MishraArtificer's Avatar


MishraArtificer
11.09.2019 , 05:26 PM | #3
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
Additionally, this is a purely subjective suggestion made solely on behalf of people like me who craft for pretty things rather than stats, so it's a comment on part of crafting rather than crafting as a whole, but...
  • Please add purely cosmetic items at grade 11 (two dyes and one new colour of crystal for artifice is all you gave us; new synthweaving and armormech outfits have stats, when you could also give us empty shell outfits, armstech could get empty weapon shells, artifice empty sabers, more dyes and crystals, mounts for cybertech, etc).

I have cross-posted this thread to Reddit as well, with a view to hopefully gaining more useful feedback. Feel free to comment there if you prefer.
As I suggested over in your crossposting in the r/SWTOR sub-Reddit, I would like to tack on the following suggestion: put the former Galactic Command armor and weapons in as craftable sets, with schematics coming from the Skill Trainers at varying levels, depending on what Tier of GC crates they used to come from.
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silvershadows's Avatar


silvershadows
11.09.2019 , 05:34 PM | #4
Further, deconstruction failures should only affect one item out of a stack - the one item the deconstruct fails on.

Currently if I deconstruct 20 bonded syntex cloth, I *might* get 20 augment components, or I might just get Jawa Junk. If I deconstruct them one at a time, I might get 19 augment components and one might turn into Jawa Junk.

There is nothing more aggravating than deconstructing 20 things for augment components and getting nothing but Jawa Junk because the roll failed on ONE item in the stack/window.
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DarthBama's Avatar


DarthBama
11.09.2019 , 08:32 PM | #5
Quote: Originally Posted by silvershadows View Post
Further, deconstruction failures should only affect one item out of a stack - the one item the deconstruct fails on.

Currently if I deconstruct 20 bonded syntex cloth, I *might* get 20 augment components, or I might just get Jawa Junk. If I deconstruct them one at a time, I might get 19 augment components and one might turn into Jawa Junk.

There is nothing more aggravating than deconstructing 20 things for augment components and getting nothing but Jawa Junk because the roll failed on ONE item in the stack/window.
I saw a theory on the gen chat that if you put those sub-components in your crafting bag, and then pull them out, they get bugged and donít generate returned mats.

Void_Singer's Avatar


Void_Singer
11.09.2019 , 10:13 PM | #6
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
[...]
Restore pre-6.0 mission success chance rates. Before 6.0, I do not remember ever failing a grey-difficulty mission
[...]
Even if one can re-achieve pre-6.0 success rate via amplifiers, having to swap equipment back and forth just to run missions actively makes the crafting experience worse, when 6.0 should be trying to make it better.
[...]
You don't remember failing those, because you didn't... the failure rate was well known... 0% change on grey 1% on green, 5% on yellow, 10% on orange, flat rate chance, affected by nothing but color difficulty
Quote:
oh and for fun, those amplifier will NEVER return us to pre-6.0 failure rates,
[EDIT]
The above statement (by me) is incorrect... I misread some available buffs, and I cannot yet confirm how much effect the "+success"" amplifiers can or do have)
[/EDIT]

crewskill missions are a two roll system.... roll for success/failure (flat rate, based on difficulty), then IF if succeeds, roll for critical (based on bonuses)

and to top it off, those amplifiers are completely misleading.... they only apply AFTER the roll for critical (or after the application of time reduction) so are reduced from their stated value, by the inverse of the base rate....
ie Real Amp Value = Amp% * (1 - Base %).... so 50 companions, and no other bonuses see only 1/4 of amp efficiency, and 3/4 of crit (down to 3/5 at for subs)... Max... less for every other normal bonus you can get (like the subscriber crit bonus)
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RBWTOR's Avatar


RBWTOR
11.09.2019 , 10:15 PM | #7
I think the biggest change they need to make is to show us what our success and crit chances are on things before we initiate them. I have a bunch of gear that increases success chance or crit chance, but I don't know what the total values are or what exactly they mean. It's possible that some of these problems are more about the interface failing to communicate what we can do to be successful.

Also, give green mats with all missions

Void_Singer's Avatar


Void_Singer
11.09.2019 , 10:46 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by RBWTOR View Post
I think the biggest change they need to make is to show us what our success and crit chances are on things before we initiate them. I have a bunch of gear that increases success chance or crit chance, but I don't know what the total values are or what exactly they mean. It's possible that some of these problems are more about the interface failing to communicate what we can do to be successful.

Also, give green mats with all missions
I can tell you if you want to know.....
The whole formula broken down to bite sized bits


CRIT (All Bonuses are checked on crew skill finish, offline skills "finish" at login)
Base Failure Rate = 0% Grey, 1% Green, 5% Yellow, 10% Orange (and it looks like +5% global in 6.0)
Sub_Bonus = +10% for Orange, +15% for all others
Base Critical Chance = ROUNDDOWN( CompLvl * 0.5% ) + Sub_Bonus + Legacy_Bonus + Guild_Set_Bonus Guild_Perk_Bonus + Guild_Skill_Bonus
Amp Critical Chance = Amp_Totals

Psuedocode
Code:
IF( Roll1  > Base_Failure_Rate )
    Check for Critical
}ELSE(
    Give Jawa scrap
)

# Check for Critical
 IF( Roll2  < Base_Critical_Rate + (Amp_Critical_Rate *  (1 - Base_Critical_Rate)) ){
    Give Critical Amount
}ELSE{
    Give Basic Amount
}

EFFICIENCY (All Bonuses are checked on crew skill start)
BASE_TIME = Varies for each crew skil item, but an example is 4hrs for Invasion force crafting
BASE Efficiency = ROUNDDOWN( Companion_Level * 1.5% ) + Guild_Set_Bonus + Guild_Perk_Bonus + Guild_Skill_Bonus
Amp_Efficiency = Amp_Total

Psuedocode
Time = (BASE_TIME * (1 - Base_Efficiency)) * (1 - Amp_Efficiency)


ETA:
you can often ignore the display values in the crew skill window, since
A) they haven't been right since 5.10 (some bonuses get applied to the wrong stat)
B) They have NEVER included the Sub Bonus
C) they usually don't include guild bonuses, and definitely don't include Amp bonuses
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Ergecrs's Avatar


Ergecrs
11.09.2019 , 11:38 PM | #9
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
Following Keith's check-in, I would like to consolidate suggestions for crafting improvements to a single thread.

We've had many threads and posts about the issues with Grade 11 crafting. This thread is not intended to argue if crafting has problems, or even necessarily what those problems are (I think they're fairly well identified at this point), but what to do about the problems.

Anyone who wants to contribute, please make specific suggestions or tweak someone else's suggestions. No insulting Bioware or even defending them, please; this is not about them but about the topic of crafting. Keeping our contributions steamlined and on-topic will help BW far better than any meta discussion.

Now, on to the suggestions!
  • Revert basic components to needing 2/2/2 of each material. No more 8/10/10. A slight lowering to something like 6/8/8 is not enough. Please go straight to 2/2/2. This is the most important thing for you to do.
  • Adjust the supply of green materials via missions. Because Grade 11 crafting needs greens predominantly, but greens are not adequately supplied in proportion to how much they are needed, add extra moderate missions to all mission and gathering skills, but especially to archaeology, scavenging, and bioanalysis (add twice as many new moderate missions to them as to slicing and the mission skills, because they additionally do not have enough missions per type of material, e.g. currently only one moderate power crystal mission, one moderate artifact fragment mission, etc.). Additionally make the other grades return some/more green materials along with their current yields. Alternatively, make moderate missions return twice as many materials (but still give archaeology, scavenging, and bioanalysis extra missions, please - or make their moderate missions return quadruple results instead). But I think this is sub-optimal because a lot of people haven't even noticed that moderate missions are the only ones that return solely greens, and many may continue to not notice.
  • Also because of the need for more grade 11 green materials, realign the proportion of green to blue to purple materials provided by harvesting nodes to approx. 7:2:1. At the moment, even one purple basic component take 204 greens, 72 blues, and 30 purples. (This doesn't take crits along the path to purple components into account, since people's crit rates are different. I acknowledge that in practice the requirements will be less than this, but I find it a helpful starting point for working out how much we need of each quality.) The proportion of green to blue to purple here is approximately either 6:3:1 or 7:2:1 (more precisely, 67:23:10), so that's what the average proportions offered by nodes should be. If BW have some more precise proportion to offer that takes average crit rates into account, that could be used instead. Additionally, for archaeology nodes specifically, please provide the same amount of power crystals as artifact fragments; don't split crystals between colour and power, as there seems to be an under-supply of power crystals that I imagine is coming from nodes (since we never see the amount gathered by a companion in any info window, it's hard to track).
  • Reverse-engineering/deconstructing *either* needs to have a lowest chance of 20% *or* an in-built pity timer that guarantees success after a certain number of attempts. My personal preference is 20% at the lowest, no matter what the grade, but I'm open to argument. The cost to RE higher levels will still be higher because higher levels cost more materials for every attempt. It's not necessary to reduce the chance to 10% or 5% on top of that.
  • Green items should need materials no higher than green. Blue items should need materials no higher than blue (this can include blue exotics like isotopes). Purple items should need materials no higher than purple (this can include purple exotics like matrices). Only gold items should use gold materials.
  • This is a comment partially on grade 11 but also partially on grades 1-10. Restore pre-6.0 mission success chance rates. Before 6.0, I do not remember ever failing a grey-difficulty mission. (If it did happen, it must've been so rare that it didn't register.) Certainly I did not, for example, fail a grade 6 mission when my skill level let me run grade 10 missions - yet, now, I do fail grade 6 missions, often enough that it stands out. This appears to be taking away with one hand while offering to give back with the other hand if we pay a price - i.e. trying to incentivize us to pursue +success rate amplifiers. But, at least for me, all it does is fuel resentment, because I never used to fail on the vast majority of missions before. It was unhelpful to make our success rate worse and hold hostage the prospect of getting it back to what it once was, under certain conditions. Even if one can re-achieve pre-6.0 success rate via amplifiers, having to swap equipment back and forth just to run missions actively makes the crafting experience worse, when 6.0 should be trying to make it better.

Additionally, this is a purely subjective suggestion made solely on behalf of people like me who craft for pretty things rather than stats, so it's a comment on part of crafting rather than crafting as a whole, but...
  • Please add purely cosmetic items at grade 11 (two dyes and one new colour of crystal for artifice is all you gave us; new synthweaving and armormech outfits have stats, when you could also give us empty shell outfits, armstech could get empty weapon shells, artifice empty sabers, more dyes and crystals, mounts for cybertech, etc).

I have cross-posted this thread to Reddit as well, with a view to hopefully gaining more useful feedback. Feel free to comment there if you prefer.
So basically you want to craft the best gear, with little effort ? Thatís what I read in all this. Pity times massive increase to chances for crits. No effort even though everything was being posted to gtn first week. God forbid we actually have to work at getting stuff. People in MMOís now have such a poor attitude. They donít understand what a grind is. They have no clue how it used to be in games where you literally would have to grind items for months at a time to get the best gears.

aristein's Avatar


aristein
11.10.2019 , 12:25 AM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
Following Keith's check-in, I would like to consolidate suggestions for crafting improvements to a single thread.

We've had many threads and posts about the issues with Grade 11 crafting. This thread is not intended to argue if crafting has problems, or even necessarily what those problems are (I think they're fairly well identified at this point), but what to do about the problems.

Anyone who wants to contribute, please make specific suggestions or tweak someone else's suggestions. No insulting Bioware or even defending them, please; this is not about them but about the topic of crafting. Keeping our contributions steamlined and on-topic will help BW far better than any meta discussion.

Now, on to the suggestions!
  • Revert basic components to needing 2/2/2 of each material. No more 8/10/10. A slight lowering to something like 6/8/8 is not enough. Please go straight to 2/2/2. This is the most important thing for you to do.
  • Adjust the supply of green materials via missions. Because Grade 11 crafting needs greens predominantly, but greens are not adequately supplied in proportion to how much they are needed, add extra moderate missions to all mission and gathering skills, but especially to archaeology, scavenging, and bioanalysis (add twice as many new moderate missions to them as to slicing and the mission skills, because they additionally do not have enough missions per type of material, e.g. currently only one moderate power crystal mission, one moderate artifact fragment mission, etc.). Additionally make the other grades return some/more green materials along with their current yields. Alternatively, make moderate missions return twice as many materials (but still give archaeology, scavenging, and bioanalysis extra missions, please - or make their moderate missions return quadruple results instead). But I think this is sub-optimal because a lot of people haven't even noticed that moderate missions are the only ones that return solely greens, and many may continue to not notice.
  • Also because of the need for more grade 11 green materials, realign the proportion of green to blue to purple materials provided by harvesting nodes to approx. 7:2:1. At the moment, even one purple basic component take 204 greens, 72 blues, and 30 purples. (This doesn't take crits along the path to purple components into account, since people's crit rates are different. I acknowledge that in practice the requirements will be less than this, but I find it a helpful starting point for working out how much we need of each quality.) The proportion of green to blue to purple here is approximately either 6:3:1 or 7:2:1 (more precisely, 67:23:10), so that's what the average proportions offered by nodes should be. If BW have some more precise proportion to offer that takes average crit rates into account, that could be used instead. Additionally, for archaeology nodes specifically, please provide the same amount of power crystals as artifact fragments; don't split crystals between colour and power, as there seems to be an under-supply of power crystals that I imagine is coming from nodes (since we never see the amount gathered by a companion in any info window, it's hard to track).
  • Reverse-engineering/deconstructing *either* needs to have a lowest chance of 20% *or* an in-built pity timer that guarantees success after a certain number of attempts. My personal preference is 20% at the lowest, no matter what the grade, but I'm open to argument. The cost to RE higher levels will still be higher because higher levels cost more materials for every attempt. It's not necessary to reduce the chance to 10% or 5% on top of that.
  • Green items should need materials no higher than green. Blue items should need materials no higher than blue (this can include blue exotics like isotopes). Purple items should need materials no higher than purple (this can include purple exotics like matrices). Only gold items should use gold materials.
  • This is a comment partially on grade 11 but also partially on grades 1-10. Restore pre-6.0 mission success chance rates. Before 6.0, I do not remember ever failing a grey-difficulty mission. (If it did happen, it must've been so rare that it didn't register.) Certainly I did not, for example, fail a grade 6 mission when my skill level let me run grade 10 missions - yet, now, I do fail grade 6 missions, often enough that it stands out. This appears to be taking away with one hand while offering to give back with the other hand if we pay a price - i.e. trying to incentivize us to pursue +success rate amplifiers. But, at least for me, all it does is fuel resentment, because I never used to fail on the vast majority of missions before. It was unhelpful to make our success rate worse and hold hostage the prospect of getting it back to what it once was, under certain conditions. Even if one can re-achieve pre-6.0 success rate via amplifiers, having to swap equipment back and forth just to run missions actively makes the crafting experience worse, when 6.0 should be trying to make it better.

Additionally, this is a purely subjective suggestion made solely on behalf of people like me who craft for pretty things rather than stats, so it's a comment on part of crafting rather than crafting as a whole, but...
  • Please add purely cosmetic items at grade 11 (two dyes and one new colour of crystal for artifice is all you gave us; new synthweaving and armormech outfits have stats, when you could also give us empty shell outfits, armstech could get empty weapon shells, artifice empty sabers, more dyes and crystals, mounts for cybertech, etc).

I have cross-posted this thread to Reddit as well, with a view to hopefully gaining more useful feedback. Feel free to comment there if you prefer.
I agree with all of these suggestions accept maybe the reverting back to 2/2/2. If they increase the drop as they did, and add a guaranteed amount of greens to mission results (I would think at least 8-10), then 2/2/2 may be too easy. If they do all the other suggestions on you list, I can see maybe a 6/8/8 or something being harder, but workable (especially if they raise the RE percentage to at lease 20%...so you don't have to waste an average of 20 mods just to get a RE pop).

The problem (as I see it) is that they didn't make one thing harder, they made all things harder (not enough greens per mission, MASSIVELY increased materials requirements, multiple levels to craft EACH higher level, lower RE rates, etc. ) And, these difficulties didn't add up, they MULTIPLIED the difficulty. It's so hard to get mats for blues, that most crafters can't afford to waste 20 blues (or more with bad luck) just to get one purple recipe (and that not even taking into account actually crafting purples).

I would also add one suggestion to your list: if they are going to require conquest rewards to craft anything, then they need to massively increase the number of mats conquests reward you (or it is going to take forever to get conquest mats to craft anything). It shouldn't take 1-2 months to gather mats just to craft augments for ONE of your characters. The gear will be worthless (as new gear comes out) by the time you craft gear for multiple characters.
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