Please upgrade your browser for the best possible experience.

Chrome Firefox Internet Explorer
×

Let's Talk Win Trading...

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Let's Talk Win Trading...
First BioWare Post First BioWare Post

MikeBradley's Avatar


MikeBradley
03.01.2019 , 04:53 PM | #1 Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. Next  

Hi All,

My name is Mike Bradley and I work as a Live Producer on the SWTOR team. As Eric alluded to, I’ve recently been delving into Ranked PvP and I’d like to talk about win trading in our game. As ‘win trading’ has become an umbrella term to describe a number of different cheating behaviors, I feel like it might be helpful to clarify at the onset some different types of manipulation this can refer to.
  • Conspiring with others to intentionally trade wins & losses
  • Queuing with bots to boost rating earned per win
  • Using multiple accounts to control the outcomes of individual matches

Any form of matchmaking manipulation to coordinate winning and losing is against our Terms of Service. While we are constantly evaluating and improving our existing methods for catching players who cheat, I realize that our current systems for reporting, catching, and punishing this behavior are not perfect. As I read through these forums, I see a lot of understandable frustrations. I think part of the cause of these frustrations is a lack of clarity on our behalf into how we punish individuals we’ve determined to be cheating or otherwise negatively affecting the gameplay experience in PvP. I believe that we can do better, and I’m committed to demonstrating that.

I will be spearheading a number of different efforts in season 11 to more effectively gather feedback from our players, educate the broader team on the nuances of exploitative behavior, catch those who attempt to abuse the system, ensure they are held accountable for their actions, and report back here with as much relevant information as I can provide. There will however be some details that I cannot share, or perhaps specific questions that I cannot answer because doing so would reveal information that would make it easier for cheaters to evade us.

I know that the vast majority of our ranked PvP players play legitimately and, to one extent or another, are having their experience ruined by those who would rather cheat than play fairly. I know that many of you have taken time and effort to send us detailed reports, raise concerns here on the forums, or explain to us all the different ways that you encounter manipulative behavior. Please know that we are listening, that we appreciate your efforts, that we are redoubling our resolve on this front, and that we will be more transparent regarding our actions going forward.

Actions and resets are being finalized throughout the day today for season 10, and top 96 rewards will be delivered early next week. I will report back to this thread to confirm when they have been sent out. Expect to see a lot more of me on here throughout season 11 and hopefully beyond.

Thank you

Mike Bradley | Associate Producer
Follow us on Twitter @SWTOR | Like us on Facebook
[Contact Us] [Rules of Conduct] [F.A.Q.]

Metthew's Avatar


Metthew
03.01.2019 , 05:05 PM | #2
That's really nice, just to recap on some forms of cheating currently going on in this game:

- Conspiring with people to boost your own character - this includes having people throw against you.
- Conspiring to throw games on people you believe are your competition for top 3, this means you secure a spot by lowering your competition's rating. Throwing is also used as a tool to bully people out of the queue.
- Queueing against bots to earn rating.
- Having teammates decline queue in teams to improve rating gain - this is an exploit in teams to boost rating gain against bots. Probably works for botting in solos too.

You removed queue syncing thankfully - while people can queue solos on voice, they cannot manipulate queue as well to get pops together anymore. Hopefully you'll respond better to cheating and harassment in the future
Erhart / Wilhemine | Darth Malgus | <Take a Seat>

MandoMetal's Avatar


MandoMetal
03.01.2019 , 05:14 PM | #3
Why were so many wintraders/cheaters restored shortly after they were banned/wiped?

I mean I'm not surprised. Expected there to be a lot more that got away with it tbh, usually how it goes... but like especially the blatant repeat offenders, seems like a no brainer to just perma ban some of those legends
- All-Galaxy Roleplayer

"I may be hetero bud... but I'll blast you with so much KappaPride, it'll make ur gendr spin"

bladech's Avatar


bladech
03.01.2019 , 05:39 PM | #4
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeBradley View Post

Hi All,

My name is Mike Bradley and I work as a Live Producer on the SWTOR team. As Eric alluded to, I’ve recently been delving into Ranked PvP and I’d like to talk about win trading in our game. As ‘win trading’ has become an umbrella term to describe a number of different cheating behaviors, I feel like it might be helpful to clarify at the onset some different types of manipulation this can refer to.
  • Conspiring with others to intentionally trade wins & losses
  • Queuing with bots to boost rating earned per win
  • Using multiple accounts to control the outcomes of individual matches

Any form of matchmaking manipulation to coordinate winning and losing is against our Terms of Service. While we are constantly evaluating and improving our existing methods for catching players who cheat, I realize that our current systems for reporting, catching, and punishing this behavior are not perfect. As I read through these forums, I see a lot of understandable frustrations. I think part of the cause of these frustrations is a lack of clarity on our behalf into how we punish individuals we’ve determined to be cheating or otherwise negatively affecting the gameplay experience in PvP. I believe that we can do better, and I’m committed to demonstrating that.

I will be spearheading a number of different efforts in season 11 to more effectively gather feedback from our players, educate the broader team on the nuances of exploitative behavior, catch those who attempt to abuse the system, ensure they are held accountable for their actions, and report back here with as much relevant information as I can provide. There will however be some details that I cannot share, or perhaps specific questions that I cannot answer because doing so would reveal information that would make it easier for cheaters to evade us.

I know that the vast majority of our ranked PvP players play legitimately and, to one extent or another, are having their experience ruined by those who would rather cheat than play fairly. I know that many of you have taken time and effort to send us detailed reports, raise concerns here on the forums, or explain to us all the different ways that you encounter manipulative behavior. Please know that we are listening, that we appreciate your efforts, that we are redoubling our resolve on this front, and that we will be more transparent regarding our actions going forward.

Actions and resets are being finalized throughout the day today for season 10, and top 96 rewards will be delivered early next week. I will report back to this thread to confirm when they have been sent out. Expect to see a lot more of me on here throughout season 11 and hopefully beyond.

Thank you

nice to hear it!

Syal's Avatar


Syal
03.01.2019 , 05:55 PM | #5
Less grind less cheat... its mathematics !
SWTOR since 2012 !
Guild Force Unifiée French PVE
The Leviathan

Estelindis's Avatar


Estelindis
03.01.2019 , 06:33 PM | #6
I have a question. Recently in chat, after one person posted "more people queue solo ranked" (presumably in the hope of getting a match faster), someone else posted that this is considered win trading or is somehow against the rules in some other way. Surely this can't be true? Asking more people to queue seems to me like an utterly harmless request - actually the opposite, since it promotes more active PvP.
|| My referral link || Trask Ulgo > The Progenitor > Darth Malgus ||
Satisfying returns for class companions!
Especially companions of the long-neglected consular...
~~~Felix Iresso return discussion & fanfic~~~

Banderal's Avatar


Banderal
03.01.2019 , 06:42 PM | #7
Quote: Originally Posted by Estelindis View Post
I have a question. Recently in chat, after one person posted "more people queue solo ranked" (presumably in the hope of getting a match faster), someone else posted that this is considered win trading or is somehow against the rules in some other way. Surely this can't be true? Asking more people to queue seems to me like an utterly harmless request - actually the opposite, since it promotes more active PvP.
I'm no one official of course, but if posting a request in general chat (I assume?) for people to queue is somehow against the ToS... holy ridiculous batman. Given the general type of stuff posted in gen chat, if THAT is somehow the bad thing then I've lost all faith in humanity. So I really hope not.

Slippery When'wet, FistFullOfCandy - SF

Lhancelot's Avatar


Lhancelot
03.01.2019 , 06:45 PM | #8
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeBradley View Post

Hi All,

My name is Mike Bradley and I work as a Live Producer on the SWTOR team. As Eric alluded to, I’ve recently been delving into Ranked PvP and I’d like to talk about win trading in our game. As ‘win trading’ has become an umbrella term to describe a number of different cheating behaviors, I feel like it might be helpful to clarify at the onset some different types of manipulation this can refer to.
  • Conspiring with others to intentionally trade wins & losses
  • Queuing with bots to boost rating earned per win
  • Using multiple accounts to control the outcomes of individual matches

Any form of matchmaking manipulation to coordinate winning and losing is against our Terms of Service. While we are constantly evaluating and improving our existing methods for catching players who cheat, I realize that our current systems for reporting, catching, and punishing this behavior are not perfect. As I read through these forums, I see a lot of understandable frustrations. I think part of the cause of these frustrations is a lack of clarity on our behalf into how we punish individuals we’ve determined to be cheating or otherwise negatively affecting the gameplay experience in PvP. I believe that we can do better, and I’m committed to demonstrating that.

I will be spearheading a number of different efforts in season 11 to more effectively gather feedback from our players, educate the broader team on the nuances of exploitative behavior, catch those who attempt to abuse the system, ensure they are held accountable for their actions, and report back here with as much relevant information as I can provide. There will however be some details that I cannot share, or perhaps specific questions that I cannot answer because doing so would reveal information that would make it easier for cheaters to evade us.

I know that the vast majority of our ranked PvP players play legitimately and, to one extent or another, are having their experience ruined by those who would rather cheat than play fairly. I know that many of you have taken time and effort to send us detailed reports, raise concerns here on the forums, or explain to us all the different ways that you encounter manipulative behavior. Please know that we are listening, that we appreciate your efforts, that we are redoubling our resolve on this front, and that we will be more transparent regarding our actions going forward.

Actions and resets are being finalized throughout the day today for season 10, and top 96 rewards will be delivered early next week. I will report back to this thread to confirm when they have been sent out. Expect to see a lot more of me on here throughout season 11 and hopefully beyond.

Thank you

It's refreshing to see someone from BW respond to win trading with a more proactive outlook here in the PVP section. Thanks for coming here to discuss it. I just have some questions and concerns.

Besides being aware of how cheaters manipulate the system and being more active in punishing them, is there anything else you guys are going to do to curb the behavior?

I am just curious if it's actually possible for BW to stop the cheating, I mean it's great if you punish those who cheat, but the fact is when it's so easy to cheat these guys are willing to take the risk just to get top ELO/rating.

My point is no matter how hard you punish the cheaters, that won't stop the ruination of ranked matches nor will it remove a lot of the toxicity that goes along with the shenanigans these cheaters pull when they compromise other player's matches with their win trades.

My thoughts on ranked and the cheating involved always come back to how do you stop it with the present scoring system?

Ranked rating/ELO is so easy to manipulate now, and has been for years. Have you guys ever considered changing how rating is gained? Perhaps a wins/losses point system instead of the present ELO system or some other type of scoring system? Something other than what has been used for years and proven to not work?

I realize this seems controversial to some, but if it has proven impossible to stop or curb the cheating the rating/ELO system now in place, perhaps a different type of scoring system would make it more difficult to manipulate which would then make it far less alluring to try to cheat. All it takes is some coordination with shady pals, a handful of matches on a character and voila high ELO and rating.

Again, more stringent punishment is great, but more important in my mind would be to find a way to eliminate the win trade behavior or make it far less convenient for the cheaters who want to try to cheat for their rating because the behavior ruins matches for honest players throughout the whole season.

It's not just the end rewards/awards that are important to get right, it's the fact the quality and fun of the matches are being destroyed during the entire season.
The Revival of SWTOR: Petition for More Funding and Resources
(Click link Below For More Information)

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=959696

Going's Avatar


Going
03.01.2019 , 07:14 PM | #9
Welcome, and hope you make ranked a better than it was prior.

The entire ELO rating gaining system has to change, and has to be engineered from the ground up to completely prevent wintrading and exploiting.

I know the team has good intentions, but you unknowingly have encouraged win trading, and exploiting since ranked came out.

1. Punishment is too light, even with the recent enforcement buff..... give them the IP ban.... seriously.
Ok so it's not easy to do this legally, with the cartel market and items sold to players.
Set up a table, and store values that indicate if players are eligible for ranked. If the account gets caught cheating, flag the account and never allow the account to play in any form of ranked ever again. Take all prior accomplishments, and delete them from the account.
Let them make a new one...money in your pockets, but they lose all past progress, and over time this could deter people from taking part in this, and doing this.
Runescapes punishment is a pretty good example of how overkill can really deter bots, and cheats, and exploits.
Oh my this sounds like over kill! No, You can't win vs the current implementation of action taken, everyone knows this, we have to explore new areas. A few ideas in here, but just my two cents.

2. The Elo gained/lost works against the people who put time into this content. We do not have the playerbase to support the current model. It's a great model, but it works for a game with a large playerbase who compete. This makes it even worse to deal with when your trying to climb the ladders, and you have a system that actively punishes you for playing the game. Wintrading makes this even worse....I have no technical solution to this, but we gotta go back to the drawing board.

3. I think the entire ranked model needs a re design. A lot of us I included would miss some things, but it's been so long dealing with the same issues, and never seeing good come from it.

I will analyze data for 4 hours a night and take the actions needed for free. Just give me the access and let me patrol the servers.
Not Null
Godlovesugly
Netsrus

LinkinPein's Avatar


LinkinPein
03.01.2019 , 08:01 PM | #10
Quote: Originally Posted by MikeBradley View Post

My name is Mike Bradley and I work as a Live Producer on the SWTOR team.
Awesome, I can finally address you.

Let me expose your big yellow lie for what it is: a big damage control attempt to sweep it all under the rug, just like Season 9. Do you remember ''zero-tolerance''? We all do.

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeBradley View Post

Any form of matchmaking manipulation to coordinate winning and losing is against our Terms of Service. While we are constantly evaluating and improving our existing methods for catching players who cheat, I realize that our current systems for reporting, catching, and punishing this behavior are not perfect. As I read through these forums, I see a lot of understandable frustrations. I think part of the cause of these frustrations is a lack of clarity on our behalf into how we punish individuals we’ve determined to be cheating or otherwise negatively affecting the gameplay experience in PvP. I believe that we can do better, and I’m committed to demonstrating that.
You have had 10 seasons. You have had endless feedback. You have had endless reports. The cause of player frustration isn't a ''lack of clarity on our behalf into how we punish individuals'', players who get banned go around showing exactly what you do to them, we all know how you handle things. It is your lack of action, however, what drives many of us mad. For the love of Malgus, BioWare, you ban wintraders, slap their writsts, then hug them back with a big candy and a top 3 reward. What the **** is wrong with you? You cannot ''do better'', the time to ''do better'' was one week ago. The only thing you have demonstrated was your occult support towards wintrading.

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeBradley View Post

I know that the vast majority of our ranked PvP players play legitimately and, to one extent or another, are having their experience ruined by those who would rather cheat than play fairly. I know that many of you have taken time and effort to send us detailed reports, raise concerns here on the forums, or explain to us all the different ways that you encounter manipulative behavior. Please know that we are listening, that we appreciate your efforts, that we are redoubling our resolve on this front, and that we will be more transparent regarding our actions going forward.
You can barely catch 20% of the players who really manipulate their rating, and I'm being generous. What makes you think that ''the vast majority of our ranked PvP players play legitimately''? Your matchmaking pushes people to the edge, it wants them to wintrade, it rewards them. You plainly made Solo Ranked a fertile ground for wintrading the 20 first wins to the top.

Quote: Originally Posted by MikeBradley View Post

Actions and resets are being finalized throughout the day today for season 10, and top 96 rewards will be delivered early next week. I will report back to this thread to confirm when they have been sent out. Expect to see a lot more of me on here throughout season 11 and hopefully beyond.
We can look at the leaderboards, you know. I mean, I understand you are displaced from the game, and that it is not feasible to expect the team to have the knowledge that myself or any other Solo Ranked player who has been around enough has; but it is your job to know what happens in your game, not ours. Oh wait, there is a method, it is called ''reporting'', something which many did, just to see how you make 3 moves right, then 5 wrong. I cannot stress this enough.

So sorry for exposing your blatant lies to the naive eye around here. As I've said, you are about to reward about 20 players who were involved in rating manipulation.