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Sins/shadow


ultimarb's Avatar


ultimarb
08.30.2018 , 02:52 AM | #11
Quote: Originally Posted by Seterade View Post
its shot.

has been since the 30% DR nerf from stuns and the maul nerf where it only does full dmg if you manage to be directly behind them.
maul wasn't a nerf. before you couldn't even use maul when you were not behind the target.
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merovejec's Avatar


merovejec
08.30.2018 , 03:19 AM | #12
Sins are fine, I play my Shadow and Sin in SR. I only play dot spec, so I am top damage, but if the team focuses me, im pretty much dead
Merovejec
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DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
08.30.2018 , 08:35 AM | #13
Quote: Originally Posted by ultimarb View Post
maul wasn't a nerf. before you couldn't even use maul when you were not behind the target.
That was exaclty the point of maul.. You couldn't hit unless you were from the back, WHICH required some skill level and thought process. Of course it was too hard for the most people to actually use some skill and brain power.

What we have now is a dumbed down version of maul... to make easy for the noobs.

Metthew's Avatar


Metthew
08.30.2018 , 09:32 AM | #14
Quote: Originally Posted by DavidAtkinson View Post
That was exaclty the point of maul.. You couldn't hit unless you were from the back, WHICH required some skill level and thought process. Of course it was too hard for the most people to actually use some skill and brain power.

What we have now is a dumbed down version of maul... to make easy for the noobs.
You hit maul with extra damage if you do it behind the target though. It makes it simpler for people who cannot use it, but you can still hit for more damage if you take position.

@OP: Besides Keira, there is Pišaro, Alim, Furkai, Krea, Valek, Shek'shas, Micky on Darth Malgus right now as good assassins. The class is fairly strong for DPS in solo ranked in situations where you can abuse your offtanking as well as your DPS/control abilities. I go for AOE reveals against their vanish as a sniper, but I've found that good assassins always whirlwind / LS people decent at revealing to play around that.

Still, DPS assassin is definitely not as generally useful as mercenary / marauder / sniper for solo ranked. In team ranked, deception is like a poor man's marauder in team ranked as of the moment. By the end of last season, I've seen Asana's team take Katrinka as a hatred assassin to good effect though.

edit: Discussing with a friend, we agreed on the following:

- Skanking with an assassin isn't that strong on its own, the problem is that most of the queue does not know how to counter it.
- Assassin can drop very easily with proper stun usage, and assassin can be hardfocused fairly easily.
- A slight buff would be a step towards the right direction, like 30% DR or re-introduction of Phase Walk.
- It does not help that mercenary / marauder / sniper are overtuned - all need nerfs to survivability. I'd argue mercenary and marauder moreso than sniper, since the nerf on healing on Ballistic Shield was a much better step one than the nerfs on others.
- Assassin has nice control on Deception, but because of SR, insta-whirlwind is not a good utility to take. This hampers the class.
- The reason marauder performs better than deception is that with a 45s stealth, stun DR, saber ward with DR, mad dash for burst / stun negation, AOE mezz, it just outperforms assassin offensively AND defensively.
Erhart / Wilhemine | Darth Malgus | <Take a Seat>

DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
08.30.2018 , 11:03 AM | #15
Quote: Originally Posted by Metthew View Post
You hit maul with extra damage if you do it behind the target though. It makes it simpler for people who cannot use it, but you can still hit for more damage if you take position.

@OP: Besides Keira, there is Pišaro, Alim, Furkai, Krea, Valek, Shek'shas, Micky on Darth Malgus right now as good assassins. The class is fairly strong for DPS in solo ranked in situations where you can abuse your offtanking as well as your DPS/control abilities. I go for AOE reveals against their vanish as a sniper, but I've found that good assassins always whirlwind / LS people decent at revealing to play around that.

Still, DPS assassin is definitely not as generally useful as mercenary / marauder / sniper for solo ranked. In team ranked, deception is like a poor man's marauder in team ranked as of the moment. By the end of last season, I've seen Asana's team take Katrinka as a hatred assassin to good effect though.

edit: Discussing with a friend, we agreed on the following:

- Skanking with an assassin isn't that strong on its own, the problem is that most of the queue does not know how to counter it.
- Assassin can drop very easily with proper stun usage, and assassin can be hardfocused fairly easily.
- A slight buff would be a step towards the right direction, like 30% DR or re-introduction of Phase Walk.
- It does not help that mercenary / marauder / sniper are overtuned - all need nerfs to survivability. I'd argue mercenary and marauder moreso than sniper, since the nerf on healing on Ballistic Shield was a much better step one than the nerfs on others.
- Assassin has nice control on Deception, but because of SR, insta-whirlwind is not a good utility to take. This hampers the class.
- The reason marauder performs better than deception is that with a 45s stealth, stun DR, saber ward with DR, mad dash for burst / stun negation, AOE mezz, it just outperforms assassin offensively AND defensively.
So your solution to the problem is nerf nerf nef... and not buff classes that are junk to be on par with more "OP" ones like merc or marauder *cough*

Congrats... you should apply for a job in the dev team. They think exactly like you, taking the easy path every time.

Before they thought Deception is sooo OP and "let's nerf", it wasn't that much worse than marauders.

Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
08.30.2018 , 11:23 AM | #16
Quote: Originally Posted by ultimarb View Post
maul wasn't a nerf. before you couldn't even use maul when you were not behind the target.
itwas a nerf. if you were a sin main like the rest of us before the nerf you would know a deception assassins maul only does "full" damage from behind. your maul damage is straight up lower from the front then it used to be. it only inflicts its original damage from behind, and the reality is in pvp with the inability to actually see the hitbox regardless of your efforts a bunch of your maul are not going to hit the back in a high mobility fight

before the the nerf when only back was possible spamming the maul would use it when the hitbox became poosible.
Quote: Originally Posted by RafaelPeretz View Post
hope they don't wait 2 years to fix it.

Metthew's Avatar


Metthew
08.30.2018 , 11:28 AM | #17
Quote: Originally Posted by DavidAtkinson View Post
So your solution to the problem is nerf nerf nef... and not buff classes that are junk to be on par with more "OP" ones like merc or marauder *cough*

Congrats... you should apply for a job in the dev team. They think exactly like you, taking the easy path every time.

Before they thought Deception is sooo OP and "let's nerf", it wasn't that much worse than marauders.
SOME assassins at the beginnings of season 8 were overly strong because they somehow retained their old stance buff and also got a passive stance on top of it, effectively having double their stance bonuses. It was an obvious bug that got fixed. Removal of stun DR was really meaningless though. Also, if you re-read what I've written, I am not opposed to mild defensive buffs for assassins.

However, mercenary or marauder are right now ridiculously overtuned, to the point that hardswapping on them in team ranked is near-impossible. They simply have DCD's that cycle too well that when the classes are played properly, they simply won't drop. They definitely need to be nerfed defensively, not to the level of PT perhaps, but they need to be better focusable to say the least.

Snipers at least drop when swapped onto correctly several times, and hardfocusing snipers in SR is also an oftentimes valid strategy these days (when other focus targets are concealment operative or mercenary / marauder). It should be somewhat easier to drop them though.

We had a defensive arms race up until season 8, and its effects still hurt PVP. It is totally unfair to call demands to undo the damage "taking the easy path".
Erhart / Wilhemine | Darth Malgus | <Take a Seat>

DavidAtkinson's Avatar


DavidAtkinson
08.30.2018 , 10:06 PM | #18
Quote: Originally Posted by Metthew View Post
SOME assassins at the beginnings of season 8 were overly strong because they somehow retained their old stance buff and also got a passive stance on top of it, effectively having double their stance bonuses. It was an obvious bug that got fixed. Removal of stun DR was really meaningless though. Also, if you re-read what I've written, I am not opposed to mild defensive buffs for assassins.

However, mercenary or marauder are right now ridiculously overtuned, to the point that hardswapping on them in team ranked is near-impossible. They simply have DCD's that cycle too well that when the classes are played properly, they simply won't drop. They definitely need to be nerfed defensively, not to the level of PT perhaps, but they need to be better focusable to say the least.

Snipers at least drop when swapped onto correctly several times, and hardfocusing snipers in SR is also an oftentimes valid strategy these days (when other focus targets are concealment operative or mercenary / marauder). It should be somewhat easier to drop them though.

We had a defensive arms race up until season 8, and its effects still hurt PVP. It is totally unfair to call demands to undo the damage "taking the easy path".
Marauder, Jugg -SIns are all melee of course and melee is weaker than ranged in this meta despite hundreds of threads on this subject.

Among melee marauders should be top dogs in my view because they have no self heals at all, anni doesn't count because those heals are a joke. You think they are so OP ? Ok., nerf defenes and give them 5% extra DPS to compensate. That would make things even. Nerfed dcds and weaker dps means useless in this game.

When 5.0 hit everyone agreed that game is balanced, marauder is the most balanced DPS class, Sins were pretty good too, snipers and mercs were cancer. Now since then what happened ? Not much. Some useless nerfs happened that changed very very little in terms of meta. ranged mercs and snipers still rule PVP, sins were considered OP and got thrown close to the trash can of PVP, Juggs were showed pity and got an obvious very easy to do self heal boost, hatred got some love too. But overall Melee are still dogs with the exception of jugg now perhaps that got another life and a another life means a lot in regs. In ranked ? Debatable

The change to RA made the other 2 marauder specs weaker because unless they take blood ward they can be stunned and pushed around at will. No cc immunity means trouble in PVP.. today.

ultimarb's Avatar


ultimarb
08.31.2018 , 12:59 AM | #19
Quote: Originally Posted by Seterade View Post
itwas a nerf. if you were a sin main like the rest of us before the nerf you would know a deception assassins maul only does "full" damage from behind. your maul damage is straight up lower from the front then it used to be. it only inflicts its original damage from behind, and the reality is in pvp with the inability to actually see the hitbox regardless of your efforts a bunch of your maul are not going to hit the back in a high mobility fight

before the the nerf when only back was possible spamming the maul would use it when the hitbox became poosible.
yes my main sin must be an illusion to myself. i'm so sorry
i didnt know that someone is only a truly sin main if his/her opinion is that maul was nerfed...

Quote: Originally Posted by DavidAtkinson View Post
So your solution to the problem is nerf nerf nef... and not buff classes that are junk to be on par with more "OP" ones like merc or marauder *cough*

Congrats... you should apply for a job in the dev team. They think exactly like you, taking the easy path every time.

Before they thought Deception is sooo OP and "let's nerf", it wasn't that much worse than marauders.
i'm a supporter on buffs before nerf. but time to kill is too high imo in todays swtor pvp. so a nerf would be more appropriate. what i didnt understand was the devs intend to change sins/pts stun dr to aoe dr only...since some classes like merc has both on one utillity.
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Seterade's Avatar


Seterade
08.31.2018 , 06:57 PM | #20
Quote: Originally Posted by ultimarb View Post
yes my main sin must be an illusion to myself. i'm so sorry
i didnt know that someone is only a truly sin main if his/her opinion is that maul was nerfed...
Quote: Originally Posted by Seterade View Post
if you were a sin main like the rest of us
I said "if"

since you were a "sin main" you would not be so silly as to claim the current sins maul is not a nerf.

running through mechanics: maul does original maul damage (proced or no) from "behind" hit box. maul can be used the from the front but will inflict reduced damage. frontal and left and right hitbox are bigger than behind. this means in a high mobility fight you will have a 1-4 chance of inflicting an unreduced maul damage post-nerf. 1 out of 4, as opposed to 100% of the time pre-nerf

Even if you claimed "right and left" hitbox don't exist in swtor, only frontal and behind, it would still be a 50% damage rate. which in turn will drop an assassins dps.
Quote: Originally Posted by RafaelPeretz View Post
hope they don't wait 2 years to fix it.