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Skank jugg still needs another nerf

STAR WARS: The Old Republic > English > PvP
Skank jugg still needs another nerf

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
06.27.2018 , 08:50 AM | #151
What are we arguing over now?

The answer I really want is simple: I want to see what the biggest hits from the various dps specs are and compare them to the biggest hits from tanks. I play vigi guardians when I dps, giant one off hits are not the spec's speciality.

What would be ideal is to somehow normalize that data to account properly for stars aligned one off outliers. I.e. to set up a probability distribution for each spec to see what its average, maximum, and minimum were along with a standard deviation. Probably for both overall ddpsand biggest hit/burst. But this is a pure pipe dream, with far too many variables to properly control for.

That said, I'm not ready to say we need to nerf something because of potential one off outliers.

As far as star parse vs damage board. Honestly for pvp the issue is, overall both are underwhelming.

As mentioned several times by several people the board computes dps as: (total damage dealt) / (total match time)
This means that the "best" dpsers will always be those that survive the longest in combat, as the match time is a constant for everyone in the match and I seriously doubt damage potential is so skewed as to be the determining factor among equally skilled players. Thus the determining factor in many wz for dps comes down to who lives longest in combat.

Now starparse merely reads your combat log in real time. As a matter of interest, it would be interesting to see peoples logs for their biggest hits in whatever spec. To my understanding it does reset any time you enter or exit combat, giving you a potentially better idea of your dps in that moment. But dead dps is no dps, and as mentioned above in pvp obviously survivability is as big as factor as dps potential.

So I conclude: both have their place as anecdotal tools, but we need a more meaningful but still quantifiable tool.

Now can we focus on the issue at hand and stop the ranting at each other? I am genuinely interested in reaching a conclusion. In about a half hour of digging through about a months worth of combat logs from june of last year (about the time I went back to tanking) I was unable to find a 40k hit from anything, in any spec, much less a guardian slash. I expect the average hit from guardian slash to go up from what it is currently sitting at (from my combat logs from june of last year) because I have better gear than I did last year, when I first went back to tanking I was in fact running my pure tank set while obtaining a skank set. I plan on continuing this process but I also am not going to devote so much time to it that I lose time for everything else (IRL or actual swtor playtime).

kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
06.27.2018 , 09:33 AM | #152
Grim maybe you should try to prove how pve parses are relevant in actual pvp combat. That is an argument you keep being up over and over again while everyone is trying to explain, some harsher then others, how itís irrelvant in actual pvp play. The only factual evidence you can provide is pve parse stastics which do not actually tell you which classes are good or bad in pvp. Majority that list, in pvp shows the best preforming classes at the bottom, not the top. There is literally zero correlation between pve parses and happens in pvp. This isnít some math equation, your way over thinking this. I donít understand how many times and how many people have to tell you this before it sinks in, you have zero evidence for your absurd theory.
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Marmeladix's Avatar


Marmeladix
06.27.2018 , 09:46 AM | #153
"devs" they call themselves?
ha! ! !

The only noticeable difference since last "nerf" of the shanks, on which the "bio-devs" so hard worked to accomplish, is that in shank gear one can not longer que for master fp, like that would really matter for any1, while in wz.... failure!

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-Bob-
06.27.2018 , 10:23 AM | #154
Walls of text - If you can't summarize your point, then you probably don't have one.
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MackPol's Avatar


MackPol
06.27.2018 , 10:27 AM | #155
Quote: Originally Posted by WayOfTheWarriorx View Post

If you can do 40k in a WZ you can do 40K on a dummy. Damage is damage. Should we test how deadly a bullet can be when someone is wearing a bullet proof vest? Of course not, that mitigates its velocity, slows it down, ties up, swirls into the mesh of the under layer and prevents it from getting through.
Thats not true tho.
Dummy is not gonna give me Pooled Hatred stacks for example.

Also you can do more overall dps coz of multiple targets
Also can do more damage or burst due to for example Reflects .

There is also much more to pvp then just numbers.

KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
06.27.2018 , 07:32 PM | #156
Quote: Originally Posted by MackPol View Post
Thats not true tho.
Dummy is not gonna give me Pooled Hatred stacks for example.

Also you can do more overall dps coz of multiple targets
Also can do more damage or burst due to for example Reflects .

There is also much more to pvp then just numbers.
The buff/debuff thing and DCDs are part of the variables we either must control or average out. Sure theres more than numbers, but the entire point of this thread comes down to "does guardian slash hit too hard?"

And the only way to answer that is to compare it quantitatively to other bursty damaging abilities.

kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
06.28.2018 , 05:25 AM | #157
Quote: Originally Posted by Gingishan View Post
Then watch my shadow hiting almost 41k. His gear have 234 ilvl, Balance?

https://s26.postimg.cc/ftxpdxxk9/Shadow_40k.jpg

With jug, bigest hit was 38k, dps spec, vengeance. As shank/skank i hit around 34k max. But i prefer shank for his better survivability. Bioware forced our hands with all fotm classes around. As a dps u get destroyed by a sniper/oper/merc same ilvl. U simply have no chance. Every class can put u in dificulty and kill u easy. Our force have died, we simply wield lightsabers but we have been cutted from the Force. So we adapt as non force users with a stick of light in our hands.
Shadows canít hit for actually hit for 40k. That is probably a lucky reflect or leaderboard bugging out, which happens.
Hothothothothothotho
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kissingaiur's Avatar


kissingaiur
06.28.2018 , 05:29 AM | #158
Quote: Originally Posted by KendraP View Post
The buff/debuff thing and DCDs are part of the variables we either must control or average out. Sure theres more than numbers, but the entire point of this thread comes down to "does guardian slash hit too hard?"

And the only way to answer that is to compare it quantitatively to other bursty damaging abilities.
Give me your example of ďcontrolling dcdsĒ or ďaveraging out dcds as variables in pvp.


What does thatís even mean.
Hothothothothothotho
"I need you all to know that Iíve transcended ranked pvp by reading about it on the forums"
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merovejec's Avatar


merovejec
06.28.2018 , 06:05 AM | #159
Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
Shadows canít hit for actually hit for 40k. That is probably a lucky reflect or leaderboard bugging out, which happens.
Also its very very hard to take these screenshots into account since you dont know whom he hit! Might well be a naked mat farmer or what ever. I mean even I went into the Yavin wz naked to get the 10x die achievo and people must have had big hits on me then.

Quote: Originally Posted by MackPol View Post
Also you can do more overall dps coz of multiple targets
Also can do more damage or burst due to for example Reflects .

There is also much more to pvp then just numbers.
The now talk about the BIG hits the tank can do, not the overall numbers since those depend on a LOT of things, like many people said.

I am not sure how you could realistically measure whether the skank tanks are still OP.
Merovejec
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KendraP's Avatar


KendraP
06.28.2018 , 07:04 AM | #160
Quote: Originally Posted by kissingaiur View Post
Give me your example of ďcontrolling dcdsĒ or ďaveraging out dcds as variables in pvp.


What does thatís even mean.
I mean there are two options. The less realistic one given the logs I have been digging through is to do an analysis of a bunch of parses on a dummy for the biggest hit, as that eliminates all target DCDs and debuffs not applied by yourself.

A more realistic approach is what I have been doing in my analysis of myself and grabbing all the logs, finding all the big hits and hoping they average out - i.e. given a large enough sample pool, DCDs and other player applied buffs become less statistically significant compared to the damage you did; i.e. a larger sample size puts less emphasis on each individual result and, thus, outliers essentially get "averaged out."

Example: if you have 2 samples at 12k and 52k, the average is 32k. Adding a third sample of say 20k moves the average to (12k + 20k + 52k)/3 = 84k/3 = 28k, which is closer to the smaller hit because, since all inputs are weighted equally, the average essentially gets pulled down by the preponderance of evidence.

These 40k hits are also very very rare as I have now dug through my combat logs from june and july of last year and still haven't found one, from any spec. Which makes such outlier significance all the more important.